The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by User12345 »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:21 pm I've got a 30x30 wood CNC that could be programmed easily enough to cut a tapered circle out of a solid piece of wood. Could do the same for the holes as well.
Now we're talking, could bash them out. Does it burn the wood though?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by JJB11B »

jonlah wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:25 am
BlueSasquatch wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:21 pm I've got a 30x30 wood CNC that could be programmed easily enough to cut a tapered circle out of a solid piece of wood. Could do the same for the holes as well.
Now we're talking, could bash them out. Does it burn the wood though?
I bet with the right tool speed, as in travel speed and RPM of the cutting head you could mitigate that.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Sugarshane »

Ok, so after a couple different approaches here’s what I went through. I ordered a used but good condition whiskey barrel head. I Sanded the char off it as best I could and used it and my face side. Then I added new dowels in tighter groups to accommodate the smaller diameter and get a solid hold of the staves together. Which by the way was my toughest part of the whole process with my particular skill level. Once I screwed up about 6 I started to figure it out though. 😆 One note I will mention is I went with 5/8” oak dowels. I used beeswax in between the staves. One thing to mention is it’s easy to overdo it on this step. A thin coat is required for your joints to come back together. Then once I got the staves together I attempted to use a router but to no avail wants clean enough and was difficult to get through over a solid inch of oak. So I end up using a small circular saw and cut off all corners and sanded down til I had a circle. Next I drilled my holes for the tap and bung. Screwed my tap in.Then I used a small hand torch to char the clean face that wasn’t originally charred. After that I hammered the head into place. After another thin coat of beeswax around the head. You can see where it Indented where the staves come together but it seems to be holding water this far.

I plan to put some apple brandy that’s been waiting to be run for over 3 monthes in this barrel if it works out. Also I like the look of it with the burnt but sanded down staves on the face.
I’ll return with final verdict
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by subbrew »

To get my dowels to line up I drill holes on one side and put in the dowels. I then take a piece of charcoal and blacken the dowel end sticking out. Now I line up the piece with the dowels with the next piece. I "squeeze" the two pieces between a couple of boards to keep them aligned as I move them together. The charcoal marks the spots on the next board where the dowel holes need to go. I would not need to do the "squeeze" if using a head to cut the pieces but these were cut from staves so they have some curve to them.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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I made a jig for the drill press (inspiration from the badmo YouTubes) but it works fine with a hand drill. I just mark on the drill how deep I want to go.
PXL_20230309_035620112.jpg
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Sugarshane »

subbrew wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:25 pm To get my dowels to line up I drill holes on one side and put in the dowels. I then take a piece of charcoal and blacken the dowel end sticking out. Now I line up the piece with the dowels with the next piece. I "squeeze" the two pieces between a couple of boards to keep them aligned as I move them together. The charcoal marks the spots on the next board where the dowel holes need to go. I would not need to do the "squeeze" if using a head to cut the pieces but these were cut from staves so they have some curve to them.
In the end this is the way I found worked for me as well. For now anyways. Once I’ve made a few I’ll start to figure out what works for me and my skill set and tools and space ( or lack thereof 😆)
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Sugarshane »

jonlah wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:58 pm I made a jig for the drill press (inspiration from the badmo YouTubes) but it works fine with a hand drill. I just mark on the drill how deep I want to go.

PXL_20230309_035620112.jpg
I also like this idea I may have to set one up for future endeavors
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by BlueSasquatch »

jonlah wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:25 am
BlueSasquatch wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:21 pm I've got a 30x30 wood CNC that could be programmed easily enough to cut a tapered circle out of a solid piece of wood. Could do the same for the holes as well.
Now we're talking, could bash them out. Does it burn the wood though?
Why would it burn the wood? It's a computer controlled router, it only burns if you're doing it wrong.

What's the pro/cons to a single piece of wood? Menards sells 3/4 x 12 boards that could be a single piece. Seems to save the multi-piece glue up, but I assume that's the way to go for a reason? Wood Buckling?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by higgins »

I'd bet those Menard's boards are kiln dried. BadMotivator used yard aged wood for staves from a Kentucky cooperage, so he had to join them.

Note that he doesn't use any glue that could be exposed to the spirit, using dowels & beeswax instead. If I could get good yard aged 1x10 white oak boards I would not hesitate to use a solid piece.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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BlueSasquatch wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:21 pm Why would it burn the wood? It's a computer controlled router, it only burns if you're doing it wrong.
Ah, CNC router. I'm new to CNC and have a laser one. I assumed it was a high powered laser cutter.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by subbrew »

Some advice if you have a barrel that will not totally seal. I had one that continued to weep from where a wood joint met the side of the bain marie. I melted plenty of bees wax on it but it continued to weep. Finally I heated the bees wax to just soft and used a flat faced punch and a hammer to tap the wax into the crack. You don't have to tap hard, just small taps back and forth to push wax into the crack. When I would run out of wax I rolled some between my fingers to make a piece like a large piece of rice and then used the punch to tap it in. Several minutes of this resulted in a sealed barrel.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Ben »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:41 am

Why would it burn the wood? It's a computer controlled router, it only burns if you're doing it wrong.

What's the pro/cons to a single piece of wood? Menards sells 3/4 x 12 boards that could be a single piece. Seems to save the multi-piece glue up, but I assume that's the way to go for a reason? Wood Buckling?

Sometimes you'll get a little burning with CNC, but it really doesn't matter on something you are going to char... if your tool is sharp, and the feed/speeds are correct it's pretty minimal.

The reason you make things like barrel heads from narrower pieces is to prevent cupping, a wide board will tend to cup quite a bit in one direction, narrow boards do cup, but you alternate the cupping direction and on average it stays flat. Again, it probably doesn't matter for the badmo's, it could show but shouldn't effect the actual construction.. on a barrel if it all cups one way you will blow the end out.

Go with the wide stock (make sure its quarter sawn, will prevent cupping and seal better) and yard age it for a season or two... put it where your sprinklers can hit it. The chances of you getting 12" wide white oak that contains no sap wood is pretty low (sapwood will rot under prolonged moisture exposure), getting a piece with perfectly quartersawn grain is even less; the trees that big don't get cut down very often any more.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Steve Broady »

This may be a little off topic for a distilling forum, but it’s definitely BadMo related. I have two BadMos which currently hold some of the first rum I made. Not my best work, and I’d like to empty them and do better. Simple enough.

But I’m me, and I rarely do simple even when I should. I just started about 3 gallons of apple wine. Some of it I’ll turn into cider vinegar, but I’m thinking of storing the rest in the used BadMos. Reading on line, it seems that it’s perfectly reasonable to put homemade wine in a barrel. Of course, I’m not using any kind of sulfites, since there’s a chance that I’ll decide to distill this stuff at some point and make brandy.

I’m curious if anyone here has tried anything like that. I now we have several wine makers on the forum. Anything I need to watch out for before I do this? While I’m not opposed to having 3 gallons of apple cider vinegar, I don’t think I really want it inside my nice BadMo barrels! So as long as that isn’t likely to happen, I’m game to try an experiment.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Ben »

Rack properly, minimize O2 during transfer, make sure the yeast is well settled (use fining if necessary), if you are putting the cider into a freshly dumped rum badmo sanitization shouldn't be an issue. I would make the decision if this is going to be consumed as cider or distilled, if you are stilling it there is no reason to oak it until after that is done. If you aren't sulfiting will help keep acetobacter at bay.,
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by 6 Row Joe »

@Ben Way to go splitting up your last sale. It worked for me. I was able to purchase one. Thanks!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by higgins »

I've made 5 BadMo clones so far and they are working great. But I wanted to mimic used barrels for aging single malts, so I bought some staves from a once-used bourbon barrel and made another clone from that wood. I had attempted to find information on how the Scots prepare used bourbon barrels for aging Scotch, but didn't find anything definite. So I did nothing to the staves other than doweling and shaping, leaving the inner faces curved and planing the outer face flat. I filled it with a single malt in December.

So now 4 months later the juice is still white as can be.

I've just recently read some info that says the Scots actually re-cooper the 200L Bourbon barrels into larger 250L Scotch casks. Sometimes they will use a mixture of staves from both Bourbon and Sherry barrels, and sometimes will scrape/de-char and re-toast or re-char as needed. There was not much detail on determining when it is needed.

I think that what I'll do is drain the barrel and pop the head out. Then I'm thinking along the lines of using a heavy wire brush to vigorously brush off as much of the char as I can, and then do a light re-char. I think this will allow me to re-insert the head without too much problem re-sealing.

Before I do this, does anyone see a problem with this, or recommend something different?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by EricTheRed »

Higgins
No input on the barrel but i reuse my oak a number of time.
I scrape rechar my sticks and double the number i would normally use.
Works but takes longer to age.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by jonnys_spirit »

higgins wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 8:26 am I've made 5 BadMo clones so far and they are working great. But I wanted to mimic used barrels for aging single malts, so I bought some staves from a once-used bourbon barrel and made another clone from that wood. I had attempted to find information on how the Scots prepare used bourbon barrels for aging Scotch, but didn't find anything definite. So I did nothing to the staves other than doweling and shaping, leaving the inner faces curved and planing the outer face flat. I filled it with a single malt in December.

So now 4 months later the juice is still white as can be.

I've just recently read some info that says the Scots actually re-cooper the 200L Bourbon barrels into larger 250L Scotch casks. Sometimes they will use a mixture of staves from both Bourbon and Sherry barrels, and sometimes will scrape/de-char and re-toast or re-char as needed. There was not much detail on determining when it is needed.

I think that what I'll do is drain the barrel and pop the head out. Then I'm thinking along the lines of using a heavy wire brush to vigorously brush off as much of the char as I can, and then do a light re-char. I think this will allow me to re-insert the head without too much problem re-sealing.

Before I do this, does anyone see a problem with this, or recommend something different?
The scotches that I like the most are probably 8+yrs and fairly light colored compared to bourbon. I’d say leave it in there as-is for a couple yrs.

How does it taste after 4mo btw?

Do you have links to reference for what the Scots do to used bourbon barrels?

Very interested.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by higgins »

I drained the barrel into 2 gallon jugs, and there was actually some color there. Since I had a 750 of the new make of this I decided it was time to do a comparison. I proofed a sample of each down to 80 for the taste - my better half tasted as well.

We were surprised at the change it had already undergone. This run produced 48 12 oz jars. The last one was about 7% ABV or so and tasted quite good by itself - it was very peaty. After first making up a sample so I wouldn't ruin the batch, I decided to add it to the hearts (jars 13-30) for the flavor.
The new make is 62%, had a lot of malt flavor, a slight tailsy character, and was a bit on the sweet side. The 4 month had the malt, but also additional flavor, maybe 'woody' rather than 'oaky'. The tailsy character is nearly gone, and it was a bit sweeter yet. I think this one is going to be very good.

After tasting I decided to just put it back in the barrel with no changes.

I found an article that had a link to this one:
https://vinepair.com/articles/bourbon-t ... cooperage/

After reading it a bit more closely, it seems the scrape/rechar process is for the barrels that have been reused several times.

Maybe the next barrel I make with the used staves I'll do the wire brush (manual) process and then lightly char for use as a rum or brandy barrel.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by GPBrewer »

Deplorable wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:40 pm Barrel owners, if you have barrel numbers 941 and 942, please PM me.
It's a shot in the dark but if you're on here...
Do you have a link to where all the barrels went? I'd love to figure out which one I got, but it was a gift.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Deplorable »

GPBrewer wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 6:01 pm
Deplorable wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:40 pm Barrel owners, if you have barrel numbers 941 and 942, please PM me.
It's a shot in the dark but if you're on here...
Do you have a link to where all the barrels went? I'd love to figure out which one I got, but it was a gift.
There's a map on his website with pins for every barrel number.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by OtisT »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:41 am
jonlah wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:25 am
BlueSasquatch wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:21 pm I've got a 30x30 wood CNC that could be programmed easily enough to cut a tapered circle out of a solid piece of wood. Could do the same for the holes as well.
What's the pro/cons to a single piece of wood? Menards sells 3/4 x 12 boards that could be a single piece. Seems to save the multi-piece glue up, but I assume that's the way to go for a reason? Wood Buckling?
There is a big drawback to using a single piece of wood for the barrel head. In most cases, that single board head would leak more than one using multiple staves.

First thing to know is that barrels are made with quartersawn oak (versus flat sawn oak). The difference is the direction of the wood grain. A flatsawn board has a grain from edge to edge and air channels that run through the board from the face to face, so liquid will more easily pass (leak) through a head made from flat sawn wood. Quartersawn wood has a grain running in the opposite direction so the air channels pass edge to edge, not face to face.

The issue with trying to use a single quartersawn board is that most QS board grain is not such that the air channels are perfectly parallel with the face. They tend to be at slight angles, and the wider the board the better the chance that an open air channel on one face passes all the way to the other face and thus leaking.

In the image below, the board on the left is a perfectly cut piece of QS oak, with the grain crossing from face to face and the air channels running from edge to edge. (Air channels are the heavy blue lines). This could work as a single board barrel head if it were wide enough. (Good)

The middle board is more typical for a QS piece of wood. The worst case air channel is open to one face but ends on an edge so liquid will not freely pass face to face. Placing multiple staves like this edge to edge would not have open air channels from face to face. (Good)

The board on the right is also something you may find sold as quartersawn. Some air channels run face to face. This board would leak face to face. (Bad). Boards like this can sometimes be made usable by cutting them narrower edge to edge.

The wider the board, the more likely you are to see a combination of these grain layouts and have some face to face air channels. When making a barrel head, always check the end of your boards for grain layout to prevent the face to face air channels.
QS oak grain and air channels in a barrel shave.
QS oak grain and air channels in a barrel shave.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by GPBrewer »

Deplorable wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:40 pm
There's a map on his website with pins for every barrel number.
Neat! Looks to me like a neighbor got one from the same batch I did! I just didn't see it on mobile.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by higgins »

My little gin still is made from a 3 quart saucepan with lid on a hot plate with SCR controller. I made a forever gasket (cardboard ring wrapped in teflon tape) and put a tri clamp ferrule on the lid. But I could only make 1 bottle of gin at a time.

So when I got my 8.25 quart Bain Marie pots to make some Badmos they looked to be the same diameter as the pot. I tried the pot lid on the BM and it fit fine. I just used one to make 5 bottles of gin and it sorked great.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator »

GPBrewer wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:01 pm
Deplorable wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:40 pm
There's a map on his website with pins for every barrel number.
Neat! Looks to me like a neighbor got one from the same batch I did! I just didn't see it on mobile.
This might be a seriously half-baked idea, but if you email me your barrel # and the barrel # of the one near, I can email the other fellow and ask if they’d like to connect. :)
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by andystanton74 »

Anyone know of a good way to smooth out the edge of the barrel head and get the slight taper to.match the barrel without using a disc sander which I don't have access to?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Ben »

Rasp
Spoke shave
Sanding block and coarse sandpaper, move up through the grits when you have the shape you want
Any power sander, lock it in a vice and move the piece against it.
Wood lathe
Bandsaw with adjustable table, fine blade and jig it
Router table with a shim to create the angle you want
Router circle cutting jig with a spacer to create the taper
Spindle sander and jig
Probably 80 other ways.

Hard to say without knowing what you have available. It's really pretty forgiving, if you have anything close to a snug fit the swell of the wood is going to stretch the stainless and lock it in. Taper probably isn't explicitly necessary. I think you could cut one of these out with a coping saw, drop it in, swell it and have a functional seal as long as you don't have any big nicks or gouges.
:)
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Beefer »

Been planning on making some of these for a while and about to kick off making my first set but had a quick question. I'm wondering how much deformation occurs in the toasting process? Reason I'm asking is that I can get 2 barrel heads if I cut the circle last vs three if I play tetris and rough cut the circles first. Properly seasoned American oak is pricey down under and if I can get more barrels its a win/win. Plan is to jigsaw them slightly oversize, toast,dowel and then use the router table to finish the shaping.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Ben »

If the wood is already fully seasoned and totally air dry you can expect around as 1% radial, or 2% tangential. It should all be quartersawn so expect around 1%. The wood will already be down to 20% or less moisture content, so even if you toast it long enough to fully dry it won't be that much.

If the wood is still sopping wet from storing liquor you "could" see 10%.
:)
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator »

Hey, you folks ever listen to podcasts? I had a wonderful conversation with Alan Bishop (Spirits of French Lick, etc.) and Christi Atkinson on “Distillers Talk” which was just published. Alan is a fantastic resource for home distillers on his YouTube channel, the One Piece at a Time Distilling Institute, author of The Alchemist Cabinet Vol. I, and a hell of a nice guy.

Here’s a link if you want to listen, but you can find Distillers Talk through most podcasters.
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