Ultra Low Density Heating ...

[Odin]

So my little rig here, after doing some calculations, has the following wattage per square centimeter: 12. That's 12 w/cm2. It never scorched. And I ran dirty washes. Dirty black strap molasses ferments. Rye bread whiskies with lots of funk in there. But the elements were and are not ULD. Or so I think.

But what is?

I am working on a new generation of heaters. The goal is to create lower wattage per square centimeter (or per whatever surface area unit). Why? Because I do not want to bother on what I throw into the boiler. Grains when making whiskey, herbs when making gin. No more clearing of my all grain ferments. No more putting my gin herbs in bags.

But what wattage am I looking for?

With the new heater design I envision I can easily reduce w/cm2 from 12 to 8. And I am thinking of another design where I lower total w/cm2 to 3. My guess is ... that is pretty much "non plus ultra low density heating".

What do you think?

Odin.

[Danespirit]

As always an interesting post Odin..
I assume you are going to modify a ULD element, in a way that it disperses the heat over a greater areal, thus eliminating the possibility for a scorch..?
A traditional ULD element with "fins" on it to act as a kind of radiator..?

[raketemensch]

I'd love such a thing for a mash pot even more than for a boiler.

[Odin]

I'd love such a thing for a mash pot even more than for a boiler.

Amen my friend! Before ya know it we'll be mashing with it as well.

And mr. Dane ... fins and shit don't matter. It purely is a question of adding the same amount of power to a bigger sized heating coil. Thus reducing the power output per square centimeter.

I think I have nailed it. 3 w/cm2. You could heat molds with that. "Molds" like "I want to make something but need a mold to pour a melted liquid in ...

Now, to facilitate homedistillers, what total wattage would you look at? Sorry, so biased towards pro equipment that anything under 18 kw seems low. But for the amateur ... maybe 5.5 kw would be appropriate? At what voltage? I think 5.5 kw because lots of elements for a keg seem to have that power. Would make heating-up like 35 minutes ... but what power do you Americans throw at these 5.5 kw elements? Amp and voltage wise ...

Let me know, because I expect to do some fine innovations here. And I think on shipping like a 100 units to the USA for homedistilling testing.

Thinking out loud ... I think I can make a 5.5 kw non plus ultra low density heating unit ... to operate at below 2 w/cm2.

Regards, Odin.

[yakattack]

My concern Odin would be the transfer of heat. Scorching doesnt just happen due to high watt density heating.

If your mash is to thick for the heat to dispurse evenly you can still get a scorch. It's one thing if your putting herbs Ect in for a gin Ect but stripping a whiskey dirty (on the grain) with an element would still pose a problem.

Mind you I could be way out in the corn field with that one. But if your going to run with an element my gut says there needs to be consistent movement of the mash. ( assuming with grains )

Yak

[Dude2008]

I think the Blickmann Boil Coil is super low watt. I use one to boil beer and have used it to boil and mash corn.

[raketemensch]

The majority of us are using 240v at 30amps.

Another thing to consider is what you would need for a hole to get the thing into the boiler. I picked up a tri-clamp fitting to mount my Camco ULWD "bent" element, and while it would easily fit into the hole in the keg, it would *not* fit through the fitting itself.

The bent elements are so far sticking with the standard idea for a heating element -- making it as straight as possible -- but I can see how something rounder, or even star-shaped, could be threaded through a small hole, and also distribute the heat more evenly throughout the cylinders that we all use as boilers.

[HDNB]

have you considered a shadylane design?

if you are talking ultra-super-duper low watt density, his bain marie is going to accomplish that and more. the more i look at it, the more i think it could have a sealed steam jacket with a (electronic) pressure and temperature cut-off to keep it under some reasonable pressure, like 5 lbs or so...and a third redundancy of a physical PRV.
time to start practicing welding skills.

if you need a tester for a new element, send one over! I'll happily abuse the shit outta one for you.

[der wo]

Something like a boil coil would be my idea too. But I am sure, Odin, you have already an idea and only want to specify some details here.
My experience with on the grain distillation is, that it scorches at over 2W/cm². Calculating with the radius of my hotplate (not the sandwich bottom of the pot) and it's wattage. Since I have insulated my still, I can use very low wattage (800W, hotplate with 11cm radius = 2.1W/cm²) to strip my small 13l grain washes without scorching.

[Odin]

Good info and yes, you are right, Der Wo.

Reading up a bit on Camco ULD heaters, they say <8/cm2 is ULD heating. So ... the new elements I have are already on the brink of ULD. And the 3 w/cm2 definately is. From Der Wo's information, we can learn (if his example is translatable to a submersed element situation) that - without agitation - we even may need to go lower. Not difficult. We may just add another heater to bring it down to 2 w/cm2. But I guess I will do some tests first.

Here's a picture of my new 9 kw, 8 w/cm2 heater by the way. I will use these for testing. Currently, we are designing a metal housing out of SS.

Regards, Odin.

[Fruitmaster]

Hi Guys,

Wondering if anyone got any further with this?

@Odin - how did this turn out?

I have been toying with how to make a sustainable, versatile set up that can be run off renewable energy without a massive capital expense and ULWD seems like the best way to go


Cheers

[Demy]

Hi Guys,

Wondering if anyone got any further with this?

@Odin - how did this turn out?

I have been toying with how to make a sustainable, versatile set up that can be run off renewable energy without a massive capital expense and ULWD seems like the best way to go


Cheers

Hi, I think that the energy consumption is the same, what changes is that these elements have a large surface and the heat is distributed on this surface so let's say on a centimeter of surface it will be less "hot" than a normal element and this is an advantage (somehow limits the burns). I have a normal element so I can't be precise.

[shadylane]

As always an interesting post Odin..
I assume you are going to modify a ULD element, in a way that it disperses the heat over a greater areal, thus eliminating the possibility for a scorch..?
A traditional ULD element with "fins" on it to act as a kind of radiator..?

I tried using a finned electric element to lower the watt density.
The mash stuck between the fins and made a mess that turned almost solid and then scorched

We also tried using a 3 phase heater with multiple elements with close spaced loops.
The mash got stuck between the elements and also made a mess

[Demy]

As always an interesting post Odin..
I assume you are going to modify a ULD element, in a way that it disperses the heat over a greater areal, thus eliminating the possibility for a scorch..?
A traditional ULD element with "fins" on it to act as a kind of radiator..?

I tried using a finned electric element to lower the watt density.
The mash stuck between the fins and made a mess that turned almost solid and then scorched

We also tried using a 3 phase heater with multiple elements with close spaced loops.
The mash got stuck between the elements and also made a mess

The smell of burning is bad, it never disappears even when redistilling.

[The Baker]

I still have visions of setting up a solar still. One day...

I have two BIG Pyrex vessels from old dairy equipment. (Free.)
The bottoms come to a cylindrical lip (say nine inches around).
I had circular stainless trays made to sit them in; but how do I seal the glass to the stainless trays?

There are two, maybe four inch holes in each side of each vessel.
I thought of a complex way to seal them but I think plastic sheeting should be fine. (?)
Probably just 'stripping runs'.

I have been making trolleys for my fermenters and distilling equipment from discarded commercial refrigeration panels
and discarded frames-and-wheels from bakery equipment so I am making one for the solar still too.
Another step towards maybe!

Geoff

[Demy]

I still have visions of setting up a solar still. One day...

I have two BIG Pyrex vessels from old dairy equipment. (Free.)
The bottoms come to a cylindrical lip (say nine inches around).
I had circular stainless trays made to sit them in; but how do I seal the glass to the stainless trays?

There are two, maybe four inch holes in each side of each vessel.
I thought of a complex way to seal them but I think plastic sheeting should be fine. (?)
Probably just 'stripping runs'.

I have been making trolleys for my fermenters and distilling equipment from discarded commercial refrigeration panels
and discarded frames-and-wheels from bakery equipment so I am making one for the solar still too.
Another step towards maybe!

Geoff

I think it would be a unique achievement here on the forum. All ideas are well accepted, who knows it could be an inspiration for future projects.

[Fruitmaster]

Yeah I thought making fins would screw the pooch as it gives it a sticking surface that would also be a real pain to clean. I was thinking more along the lines of a mirror polish big brew coil (with enough seperation between coils to allow free flow) with an agitator. If the watt density is low enough, you could even look at a ptfe coating to prevent sticking.

My reason for this is I had a sleepless night and got thinking about a scaleable ulwd heater for grain/fruit mashes. If using grid electricity it could bring substantial savings in electricity bills but it really comes into its own when applied in an off grid scenario allowing for more efficient use of power with a sustainable hydro or solar source where every watt counts!

I like the solar still idea but it seems the initial investment would be mega and there aren't many off the shelf solutions, it would be easier to make a power bank with solar panels or a plug and play hydro jobbie and fire the still with the immersion coil. I think the skill and time required to build it a la parabola would be tough with the added problem of controlling the heat input enough to get consistency in the distillation.

Just some thought exercises.

[Fruitmaster]

Hi, I think that the energy consumption is the same, what changes is that these elements have a large surface and the heat is distributed on this surface so let's say on a centimeter of surface it will be less "hot" than a normal element and this is an advantage (somehow limits the burns). I have a normal element so I can't be precise.
[/quote]


Surely the added efficiency of direct immersion heating is better than having to deal with the thermal resistance of copper or stainless and a heat transfer media like glycol or water, especially with an insulated pot. This would save power and start up time whilst preventing scorching.

[The Baker]

Fruitmaster said, 'I like the solar still idea but it seems the initial investment would be mega and there aren't many off the shelf solutions...'

If you have the time and a workshop and some skills, there are ultra simple and cheap solar still systems you could check out on a very small scale.

Geoff