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Posted: **Tue May 31, 2016 1:34 am**

Hello everyone , greetings from New Zealand ,where we are nuke free and brew and distill legally , found some great info here and am soon to build a vapor management reflux still, i currently use a "air still "pot still simply cos i had it lying around from when we did a health kick 10 yrs or so ago distilling water made 2 washes at 25l each so far both perfect, in my limited opinion, after a quick activated carbon filter making all manner of drinks from kahlua style drinks infused with alcohol washed beans and a shot of fresh brewed esspresso ,to the irish creams and the wife fav black sambucca .I recently mastered roasting jack daniels barrel chips and extracting a kind of bourbon like likker ,witch btw i would love someone from america to blind test. My question is.....

Other than everyone sayn (and i scanned the forums for days)turbo yeast are no good and "i use bakers yeast' is there any science to back it up instead of the heresay , because when im running my wash trough a pot still, first batch on white sugar , second on dextrose ,its freaking delicious i regularly sit there watching it ,sipping it with a desert spoon getting a feel for the taste difference of the heads hearts and tails ,hoping some kiwis chime in because a lot of the yeasts here are different to the ones in america, my local brew store has around 20 types of beer yeast and 6-8 likker yeasts from tripple distilled brand through all the turbo varients, please anyone with informed scientific recomendations reply

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2016 5:33 am**

Well, welcome to the forum. This is the best distilling forum on the planet. International participants from all over the world with a millenea of knowledge here. Lear to use the HD Google search (there's a hotlink in my signature) and spend time actually reading, not just skimming. You'll learn a lot.

So, on with the yeast question..."Turbo" yeast is regular brewing yeast with an over-abundance of nutrients in it so the yeast process sugars at a feverish pace. Trouble is, it produces off flavors and congeners at the same time, most likely well above the flavor thresholds.

Bread yeasts (bakers) on the other hand is readily available whereever people bake...and that is just about everywhere in the world. Because of the availability and the market for it, the price is most economical. And, it works quite exceptably for our intents and purposes. Try it and you may not elect to resort to liquid beer yeasts for your distillations again. You just don't need to spend more when the dehydrated bakers yeast will do the job.

The exception here is that many favor the Lalvin EC1118 champagne yeast for fruit (must) ferments because of it's ability to ferment clean without ester production. It is also a little more tolerant to cooler temperature ferments and perhaps slightly higher gravity ferments.

The keynote here is to use what you like to use and make the environment for the yeast the best you can for a healthy ferment. Take care of your yeast and they'll reward you with a good product.

I hope the answer to your question is in here somewhere. In any case, read and read many threads and you will gain a broad perspective of the issue you've queeried.
ss

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2016 7:20 am**

As SS said, Turbo is just Saccharomyces cerevisie like any other yeast, with plenty of added nutrients. This particular yeast strain has not been selected for a particular ester profile, but rather for alcohol tolerance.

The high gravity washes, and the quantity of nutrients generate a fast and high temperature fermentation. The effects of this kind of fermentation are:

1. Increased alcohol rate production. [1]
2. Increased Fusel oils producion.[1]
3. Increased ethil acetate producion [1]
4. Largely increased dead yeast cell count. [2]
5. Increased fusel oils production. [2]

[1] - http://goo.gl/PI1N5L
[2] - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 2977.x/pdf

If you are getting good results with Turbo it might be that you use it against directions, using only part of the package and with low gravity washes?

Edit: fixed first link, thank you dw

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2016 7:31 am**

The first link does not function.

The second link is only about temperature of fermentation.
Of course you can ferment a high grav wash or mash cold too, if you have a cold place. So this study is no prove that high grav turns out always bad. It only wants to prove, that high temp washes produce more congeners.

Edit: I don't recommend high grav for neutral washes.
The best thing is to try it. Try a fermenter with 7-8kg sugar total 25l and turbo yeast and another fermenter with for example birdwatchers.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2016 7:42 am**

Hi dw. I fixed the first link, thank you. Both links are studies about the effect of temperature on yeast fermentation. What turbo does is ferment fast and hot. Of course you can cool it and you might end up with a better ferment, but that's not why you use turbo in the first place...

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2016 7:55 am**

The first place is, because you want much spirit with less runs of a small still.
And when you ferment fruits, you can add sugar. More spirit with less fruits.

I never had success with turbo yeast and neutral washes (but I gave up early). Only with the turbo yeasts for about 14% maximum (alcotec VodkaStar or alcotec TripleStill). But they are no real turbos.
But with fruits I have success. I use one sachet for 125l instead of 25l. And don't go to the maximum of 19%abv but 17%.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2016 8:59 pm**

[quote="still_stirrin"]Well, welcome to the forum. This is the best distilling forum on the planet. International participants from all over the world with a millenea of knowledge here. Lear to use the HD Google search (there's a hotlink in my signature) and spend time actually reading, not just skimming. You'll learn a lot.

thanks for the tip

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2016 10:29 pm**

thanks everyone for the input, i pretty much follow instructions,the first wash was 8kg white sugar turbo 8 i think pitched high end of scale no further treatment, 2nd wash 6kg dextrose with the carbon premixed then cleared before distilling pitched on the low end of the reccomended scale

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2016 11:48 pm**

Madmead wrote:thanks everyone for the input, i pretty much follow instructions,the first wash was 8kg white sugar turbo 8 i think pitched high end of scale no further treatment, 2nd wash 6kg dextrose with the carbon premixed then cleared before distilling pitched on the low end of the reccomended scale

Low end of the reccomended scale? What do you mean? Reccomended sugar content (6 or 8kg) or recommended yeast amount (1 sachet for 25l)?
I would recommend you to top each version with 5l water. You will end with more ethanol after distilling, because no unfermeneted sugar will remain.
Second recommodation: In case the fermentation doesn't start within 12h, aerate the wash with a big spoon or an aquarium pump. At least the 8kg turbo could fail without good aeration.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:25 am**

Madmead wrote:"i use bakers yeast' is there any science to back it up instead of the heresay ,

Browsing around the different Distilling forums last night and came across this link which had been recently posted up.
It may help you understand a little about why Bakers Yeast is adequate for the average hobby distiller if they wish to make Rum or Whisky.
Yeasts such as EC1118 are probably a better option if you wish to make Neutrals type spirits, Vodkas or for Fruit based Ferments..
http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com.au/20 ... s.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I don't need Science to tell me the difference between a wash or mash that stinks, or one that is pleasant to smell, my nose can do that for me. If you doubt that, then smell the difference between a Birdwatchers Sugar Wash and a wash recommended to you by a the home brew shop who sold you a pack of Turbo Yeast.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:29 pm**

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Madmead wrote:"i use bakers yeast' is there any science to back it up instead of the heresay ,
Browsing around the different Distilling forums last night and came across this link which had been recently posted up.
It may help you understand a little about why Bakers Yeast is adequate for the average hobby distiller if they wish to make Rum or Whisky.
Yeasts such as EC1118 are probably a better option if you wish to make Neutrals type spirits, Vodkas or for Fruit based Ferments..
http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com.au/20 ... s.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I don't need Science to tell me the difference between a wash or mash that stinks, or one that is pleasant to smell, my nose can do that for me. If you doubt that, then smell the difference between a Birdwatchers Sugar Wash and a wash recommended to you by a the home brew shop who sold you a pack of Turbo Yeast.

Hi Saltbush Bill , I hear what your sayn ,the thing is what I'm brewing tastes delicious straight from the pot still, not sure what the difference is but I'm in New Zealand using local water etc, I monitor the temps digitally and manage accordingly it is amazing how it climbs when left unchecked which is where I suspect many get their off flavors, and after a quick carbon pass is even better when its cooled down, then I steep it in Jack Daniels Barrel chips that I toast and roast in house, it surpasses Jims bourbon by a country mile.I am going to take everyones advice and try a bread yeast wash and use all sorts of grain products if only to say I tried. The thing is I needed some facts behind the yeast selection, all I was reading is its cheaper, which proves false when you factor sugar cost per abv and worse if you consider the effort, power/gas and time in the calculation

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:46 pm**

cont. from above ... the next step for me is building a Vapour Management still Dad300 has some incredible threads on these, it all takes research and is all about science, and maybe flavorings wont be as much of an issue as my single run pot still 50% abv
What I have learnt from my beer brewing is every single yeast gives a different and unique flavor profile and one would never think of using bakers yeast for beer , Just looking for honest opinions from actual experience

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:58 pm**

der wo wrote:
Madmead wrote:thanks everyone for the input, i pretty much follow instructions,the first wash was 8kg white sugar turbo 8 i think pitched high end of scale no further treatment, 2nd wash 6kg dextrose with the carbon premixed then cleared before distilling pitched on the low end of the reccomended scale
Low end of the reccomended scale? What do you mean? Reccomended sugar content (6 or 8kg) or recommended yeast amount (1 sachet for 25l)?
I would recommend you to top each version with 5l water. You will end with more ethanol after distilling, because no unfermeneted sugar will remain.
Second recommodation: In case the fermentation doesn't start within 12h, aerate the wash with a big spoon or an aquarium pump. At least the 8kg turbo could fail without good aeration.

Meaning low end of the range of recommended temperatures mate.. pitching temp the time when the yeast is initially added, maximum sugar lol I need more horsepower not less,

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:00 pm**

cuginosgrizzo wrote:As SS said, Turbo is just Saccharomyces cerevisie like any other yeast, with plenty of added nutrients. This particular yeast strain has not been selected for a particular ester profile, but rather for alcohol tolerance.

The high gravity washes, and the quantity of nutrients generate a fast and high temperature fermentation. The effects of this kind of fermentation are:

1. Increased alcohol rate production. [1]
2. Increased Fusel oils producion.[1]
3. Increased ethil acetate producion [1]
4. Largely increased dead yeast cell count. [2]
5. Increased fusel oils production. [2]

[1] - http://goo.gl/PI1N5L
[2] - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 2977.x/pdf

If you are getting good results with Turbo it might be that you use it against directions, using only part of the package and with low gravity washes?

Nice reply

Edit: fixed first link, thank you dw

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:11 pm**

der wo wrote:The first link does not function.

The second link is only about temperature of fermentation.
Of course you can ferment a high grav wash or mash cold too, if you have a cold place. So this study is no prove that high grav turns out always bad. It only wants to prove, that high temp washes produce more congeners.

Edit: I don't recommend high grav for neutral washes.
The best thing is to try it. Try a fermenter with 7-8kg sugar total 25l and turbo yeast and another fermenter with for example birdwatchers.

Sound advice ...nice
I will try another wash, got a grain one in mind
Att. is my "kiwi whiskey"

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:15 pm**

Madmead wrote:.... and maybe flavorings wont be as much of an issue as my single run pot still 50% abv....

I don't drink single run anything. I knew not to bother with singles before I built my pot. The best thing I ever did was start with a fermenter that could hold four charges worth of ferment so that the spirit runs produced a decent quantity of good quality double distilled product, at barrel strength and higher. If I did build a column it would only be used for neutrals and I would still strip with the pot first.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:36 pm**

NZChris wrote:
Madmead wrote:.... and maybe flavorings wont be as much of an issue as my single run pot still 50% abv....
I don't drink single run anything. I knew not to bother with singles before I built my pot. The best thing I ever did was start with a fermenter that could hold four charges worth of ferment so that the spirit runs produced a decent quantity of good quality double distilled product, at barrel strength and higher. If I did build a column it would only be used for neutrals and I would still strip with the pot first.

ok I'm off to double run ..so if I had 2 l 40 %abv do I add water and how much should I draw off after discarding the first 10 ml

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:46 pm**

found a 3rd liter put it all in neat , any numbers for yield appreciated

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:54 pm**

40% is low enough for neutral. I try to size my takeoff jars to get me at least ten jars to choose my cut from. Air overnight and blend the next day.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:04 pm**

NZChris wrote:40% is low enough for neutral. I try to size my takeoff jars to get me at least ten jars to choose my cut from. Air overnight and blend the next day.

umm... I have an air pot still, into It, I poured 3 liter 40% distilled 1x sprit to run a second distillation , the question is when should I stop collecting in mls

my understanding is that it should be way stronger this time so my 3 liter would turn into a smaller number I'm thinking around 1200 ml

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:22 pm**

its running 80%abv

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:24 pm**

It might get you over 2l some of which will be nasty crap that you won't want to include in your final blend.

That thing you hang your sunnies off will be more helpful choosing what you keep than I can be.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:36 pm**

500mls collected @80% 160proof
starting to slope down now 79%

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:43 pm**

next 200ml 78% abv
then next 200 ml 72%
* note all readings actual on an empty test tube (slightly warm) ,not in a parrot which gives an average reading by design

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:52 pm**

You really need to forget about trying to make cuts by amounts, Mls and ABV , your nose knows best.

Posted: **Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:33 am**

Saltbush Bill wrote:You really need to forget about trying to make cuts by amounts, Mls and ABV , your nose knows best.

fair comment once you have a reference taste to go by, this was a first never done a second run (distillation ) before

Posted: **Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:46 am**

final cuts

Posted: **Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:46 am**

Do those 3 bottles represent your 3 cuts? Heads, Hearts and Tails ?

Posted: **Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:31 pm**

Saltbush Bill wrote:Do those 3 bottles represent your 3 cuts? Heads, Hearts and Tails ?

no they dont not that good yet mate atleast 50mls was tipped off more like 100 as it spilled all over the bench then the rest bottled by test tubing the abv constantly about 150mls per time ,the 160 proof tasted ok warm but kicks now its cold ,not sure what i actually gained by this 2nd distillation it doesnt taste any better ,honestly i think 1st run was very nice, im thinking the airstill by its double jacketed element works a treat
first bottle ran 80% for a few tests then when it dropped to 79 the 2nd bottle was started ran that down to 50 something then last bottle till it didnt taste like much

Posted: **Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:53 pm**

Did you dilute to 40% or less to taste it?

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