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I was a little bored today and decided to experiment with a little bit of potato starch that I found in the pantry. Started with a half a pound of starch was going to add a half gal of boiling water but screwed up my measurement and ended up with 1 galadded a bit of high temp enzyme and watched those critters break down the starch blobs added some GL enzyme Brix are at 7 and climbing

OVZ

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I'll be watching as you work on this one. What a great way to get some Potato Vodka? I did a quick search for bulk potato starch. 50# bag for about $70.00 US

I'm glad you got bored today.....Thanks for sharing.....

Do you think that you could use instant potato flakes for this as well? I will run a search on it but I don't recall coming across anything. Interested in your results OVZ.

I don't think potato starch has much flavor. Converted it's probably not much different from a sugar wash.

A fermented fruit/grain has more taste than fermented sugar.

der wo Wrote,

I don't think potato starch has much flavor. Converted it's probably not much different from a sugar wash.

I was thinking this would be good for a nice vodka hopefully without the sugar bite.

Please keep us posted! I have been wondering how potato flakes/starch would compare to straight sugar was well.


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WIski wrote:

der wo Wrote,
I don't think potato starch has much flavor. Converted it's probably not much different from a sugar wash.

I was thinking this would be good for a nice vodka hopefully without the sugar bite.

So you think, all members here, who don't go the AG route, only make all bran, sweet feed and UJSSM, have a sugar bite in their fake whisky or vodka?
I don't think. I don't think, sugar bite is from fermenting sucrose. And I think, the best vodka is made from very tastefull grains and then distilled as clean as possible, that almost all taste is gone, only a slice of the best taste of it remains.

WIski wrote:

der wo Wrote,

I don't think potato starch has much flavor. Converted it's probably not much different from a sugar wash.

I was thinking this would be good for a nice vodka hopefully without the sugar bite.

Exactly my thoughts

Well the max conversion I got using 1/2 lbs starch to 1 gal water was 7 brix, so thinking that a 1 to 1 would get me to about 14 brix and a 10% final. I can get a 25 lbs bag for 33$ US - might be worth a try.

OVZ

Yes please do keep this thread going to it's conclusion.

Only time I fermented potatoes was to a published recipe, in a wine without starch conversion and it gave the biggest hangover headaches brew I ever made. "Fuesel oils" were the mutterings at the time and it would be great to hear how this one turns out. I never allowed a potato anywhere near anything I brewed since, so if they can be used properly I'd love to hear about it.

der wo wrote:I don't think potato starch has much flavor. Converted it's probably not much different from a sugar wash.

A fermented fruit/grain has more taste than fermented sugar.

It certainly has little flavour when served as mashed potato.
Geoff

Potoato starch has 83% carbon hydrates and 16% water. Only around 1% has probably some taste.
For example corn has 65% carbon hydrates and 12% water. So there is 23%, what has flavor.
So at least in theory corn has 23 times more taste than potato starch. Now considering that for the same abv you need a little more corn than potato starch, perhaps a corn mash has 30 times more flavor than a potato starch mash.
Of course the amount of flavor of the yeast and of the fermentation products is similar both mashes.
And probably a potato starch mash with 10% abv needs added nutrients or at least an overpitching of yeast.

Yes I believe that the potato starch will give very little if no flavor, that is the reason for this experiment - a neutral vodka. If I want to make something with flavor I'll still do a AG whiskey.

I'm going to pick up 25 LBS of starch tomorrow and try my luck later this week.

OVZ

Watching intently Oldvine Zin! Let's see what it can do!!

Very curious to see how this goes. I've found Bobs Red Mill potato starch at local grocery stores.

Yes, it is a nice experiment. But I don't see much reason, that it turns out much different than a tpw or All Bran. I know, the starch will be mainly glucose, the tpw is sucrose. And glucose is easier to ferment. But you can invert the sugar for the tpw before (or add glucoamylase) too, it will ferment faster but will not taste much different.

And again, I think, best for a vodka is not to avoid taste while mashing, but while distilling.

der wo Wrote,
And again, I think, best for a vodka is not to avoid taste while mashing, but while distilling.

der wo, I always enjoy your post and insightful view. I have never made vodka but this process has me gearing up and preparing.

So you say "best results" for flavorless vodka is achieved with distillation protocol over mashing protocol. Is it possible that a combination of best practice mashing and distilling could be better yet? Or are you suggesting that the extra money and effort spent on making the perfect mash is not worth it as best distillation protocol will make an equally best vodka from a not so perfect (less taste) mash protocol?

Compare cost: premium ingredients for the mash vs 3x distillation. After all, the intent with a vodka is "neutral" flavor. So, you're NOT trying to produce flavor...all things being equal. It just really boils down to "time & money".
ss

WIski wrote:

der wo Wrote,
And again, I think, best for a vodka is not to avoid taste while mashing, but while distilling.

So you say "best results" for flavorless vodka is achieved with distillation protocol over mashing protocol. Is it possible that a combination of best practice mashing and distilling could be better yet? Or are you suggesting that the extra money and effort spent on making the perfect mash is not worth it as best distillation protocol will make an equally best vodka from a not so perfect (less taste) mash protocol?

You got me wrong. I don't recommend a less "best practice mashing". I recommend flavorfull ingredients. The more grain flavor the more perfect for vodka.
Btw there are many vodkas made from 100% rye. Why rye? Rye is expensive and difficult to mash and distill. So why rye? Perhaps because of taste?

Shall a vodka be neutral?
If you want a neutral, I would go the tpw or All Bran route. Cheaper and I don't think worse than converting starch.
If you want a vodka, I personally like fermented grain and reflux still. My best vodka is pure rye backset with sugar, stripped on the grain like a whiskey and then refluxed to 95%+ with a very extensive heads and tails cut.

But of course this is only my opinion. It's ok, if you avoid taste for mashing vodka.
But I am still missing the point why the heck the effort with potato starch and enzymes? And at the end you will probably need to add something like tomato paste for nutrients.

der wo wrote:
Shall a vodka be neutral?
If you want a neutral, I would go the tpw or All Bran route. Cheaper and I don't think worse than converting starch.
If you want a vodka, I personally like fermented grain and reflux still. My best vodka is pure rye backset with sugar, stripped on the grain like a whiskey and then refluxed to 95%+ with a very extensive heads and tails cut.

der wo, not following how with rye backset and sugar you are able to strip on the grain, unless your backset is full of goo?

der wo wrote:But of course this is only my opinion. It's ok, if you avoid taste for mashing vodka.
But I am still missing the point why the heck the effort with potato starch and enzymes? And at the end you will probably need to add something like tomato paste for nutrients.

At this point this is my hobby, I like to experiment, and since I haven't found anyone here that has actually followed this experiment through completion I thought I would give it a try. Might be good, might turn out crap....time will tell

OVZ

I first make a normal rye mash for a rye whiskey and strip it. The low wines gets redistilled for the whiskey. And the backset is topped up with sugar and water to the original mash volume (I add calcium carbonate to buffer the pH of the very sour backset) and gets fermented to 8-10% alcohol and stripped like the whiskey.
To strip a rye backset sugarhead mash is not more difficult than to strip a normal rye whiskey mash.

But we should go back on topic to your experiment. Keep us informed how it works.

Oldvine Zin, Im not much of a vodka man myself but have done many TPWs for guests and gifts ect.

I'm a rum and whiskey man myself.... Anyway was reading an in depth rum thread on here, one of the members started adding potato into his rum ferment. Quite a few members jumped on board and gave it a go too. All with positive results. I'll quote as follows: "it leaves an incredibly velvety mouth and subtle earthy sweetness unlike any other single ingredient. A sensation [not the taste]somewhat like warm milk straight from a cow's tattas [biological cow of course, not jacked on roids and antibiotics, like in the good ole days]

I thought this was worth sharing. If you are interested the threat is located here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... &start=150

Perhaps the (uncooked!) potato introduced lactic bacteria?
Anyway, of course a potato has flavor and nutrients. I always wonder, that so much members had no succress with a potato mash. I never tried. But potato starch has no or almost no flavor and nutrients.

der wo wrote:Perhaps the (uncooked!) potato introduced lactic bacteria?
Anyway, of course a potato has flavor and nutrients. I always wonder, that so much members had no succress with a potato mash. I never tried. But potato starch has no or almost no flavor and nutrients.

The member I was referencing (Liquid_Luv) boils the potato for an hr and only adds the liquid to the fermenter not the actual potato.

vqstatesman wrote:

der wo wrote:Perhaps the (uncooked!) potato introduced lactic bacteria?
Anyway, of course a potato has flavor and nutrients. I always wonder, that so much members had no succress with a potato mash. I never tried. But potato starch has no or almost no flavor and nutrients.

The member I was referencing (Liquid_Luv) boils the potato for an hr and only adds the liquid to the fermenter not the actual potato.

Ok, I was reading to fast... You are right. He boils them and uses the liquid. Interesting read.
But anyway, water of boiled potatos and potato starch is very different things. I can understand that potato water has an effect on taste or mouthfeel. But not potato starch, because it's nothing but starch and water, and after mashing sugar and water.

I finally had some time to pursue this experiment (sucks when life interferes with stillin)25LBS Potato starch
Heated 25 gals of water to 190f and while recirculating with my pump added the starchadded 9ml high temp enzymes - continued to recirc until the temp hit 145f added the gl enzyme. Checked brix this morning and to find out I had a not so impressive reading of 5 - Still going to ferment this and complete this experiment.
Pitched with some DADY and added some Fermaid K. -Time will tell

OVZ

Oldvine Zin wrote:I finally had some time to pursue this experiment (sucks when life interferes with stillin)

potstarch.JPG

25LBS Potato starch
Heated 25 gals of water to 190f and while recirculating with my pump added the starch

potstarch45.JPG

added 9ml high temp enzymes - continued to recirc until the temp hit 145f added the gl enzyme. Checked brix this morning and to find out I had a not so impressive reading of 5 - Still going to ferment this and complete this experiment.
Pitched with some DADY and added some Fermaid K. -Time will tell

OVZ

Just a suggestion... starch,corn or potato,mixes best in COLD liquids then add heat.

Well at least the yeast wont be stresses Happy bubbles

OVZ

The ferment finished at .990 - should have after clearing about 23 gals of a whopping 4%ABV Hope to run it tomorrow full reflux, might end up with a little less than a gal at 90%

OVZ

Filled the boiler with 12 gals, refluxed for 45 minutes - pulled fores and let it reflux for a bit more. Started at 85 and quickly dropped to 45 and smelled like used ass. The other 12 gals will go down the drain.
OVZ