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Hello, I did search this but with 15345 posts that has thumper in it I gave up. I have one but have not used it yet. I read that a thumper imparts more flavor to the product by passing the vapour thru a liquid of whatever flavor you are going for. I can see how this would work, but doesn't that cool the vapour down to liquid? Then I read that you can increase the ABV by using a thumper, this I don't understand how it would work, if true could some one explain it? What is the correct result from a thumper's use? Thanks.

Hey, Ten~
Think of it as a purifier.
Many of the answers can be found using HD Google Search above.
Open it; leave a space after the URL; type in the word or term you're looking for such as how does a thumper work?

Using HD Google Search, I found this for you: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=32911

...and again, Welcome.

Here's a better search


https://www.google.co.uk/search?rls=en- ... on+thumper

3rd reference is pretty good - and this is the best way to search the forum using Google Search at the top of teh page.

[Edit - Note how I said "Operation thumper" after pressing the "Google search"

Read some of that lot then come back and ask specific questions about anything you don't understand.]

A thumper is a very versatile tool that can be used for many purposes. At the beginning of a run vapor from the boiler does indeed condense in the thumper. But that phase change releases lots of heat so very soon the contents of the thumper come to a boil and vapor is sent to the product condenser.

Because of that condense/reboil process the thumper acts as (almost) another stage of distillation. For instance, if you start distilling a 10% wash, you have to raise the temperature to about 93C. The vapor will condense in the thumper at around 50% ABV. That 50% mixture will boil around 83C, so the thumper charge will always boil at a lower temperature (require less heat) than the primary boiler. The vapor from that 50% thumper will condense at around 75% ABV so there is your increased purity. You can get even more ABV bump by precharging the thumper with high test feints.

Actually it is not quite that efficient so a thumper run typically behaves like something beween 1 1/2 and 2 standard pot still runs.

There's the basics. From there you are only limited by your motivation and creativity. So you see there is no "correct" result. Fire yours up. It can't hurt anything and you might come up with a great new way to use it.

Simulpost.

skow69 wrote:
.... For instance, if you start distilling a 10% wash, you have to raise the temperature to about 93C. The vapor will condense in the thumper at around 50% ABV. That 50% mixture will boil around 83C, so the thumper charge will always boil at a lower temperature (require less heat) than the primary boiler. .......

Presumably that only works if you have a very small thumper charge, which the condensate can raise the abv of easily, or there's already alcohol in the thumper skow ? - Hence Popcorn Sutton's use of Tails ( "Backins") in his delightful video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glQjCKAI4gA

Oh, I don't know. One part of 50% will mix with four parts of water and still boil easier than your 10% wash because the wash is now down to 9%. But I always charge mine with feints at 25% - 30% so I really couldn't say for sure how long it takes to heat up a non-alcoholic charge. I know it will always get there eventually because the primary charge is always getting weaker and the secondary is always being enriched. At some point they have to cross.

Thanks for the replies and links. I will do some reading, I wanted to ask that here because, well you know how much bull is out there.

Dont use backins. Put em in the kettle and draw out cider to put in the kettle.
Why do you cut at backins?
Thats one of them rhtorical
questions

As far as pop corn . It aint good talkin ill of the dead so i aint.

Do the experiment yourself




So im tole

I recently built a thumper out of my second still, so both my boiler and thumper are 10 litres.
I used a very troublesome wine (10 litres of sediment, 5 litres of fluid) do to some testing runs. Both with 4 litres product, boiler with water and thumper with sediment etc. Very interesting: it seems that indeed a thumper results in 1,5 or 2 times distilling.
But than again: my thumper is of the same size as my boiler. Most are 1/3 to 1/2 of the boiler and even small glass jars or tin cans are used.
If you want to know how your thumper reacts: try it (and keep good notes of the runs!!). I think it is a whole new field of experience.

I think the thumper result is always going to be 1.5x - 2x regardless of the thumper size. Whether it's big or small it is always going to process whatever is in the primary, no more and no less.

Thumper size has more to do with overfilling, which results in a puke. Or maybe I should say "the ratio of charge size to thumper size." The conventional wisdom holds that the secondary should be about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the primary. As far as I can tell, you can't get into trouble with a thumper that is too big, but a small thumper will burn you if you let it. I used to run a five gallon pot with a one gallon thumper. If I charged it with a half gallon or less it worked fine. If I charged it with three quarts or more, it would puke every time.

skow69 wrote:I think the thumper result is always going to be 1.5x - 2x regardless of the thumper size. ...........


.........a small thumper will burn you if you let it. I used to run a five gallon pot with a one gallon thumper. If I charged it with a half gallon or less it worked fine. If I charged it with three quarts or more, it would puke every time.

That's a good ratio to stick in the back of the mind skow - thanks

Your experience is then that the volume of liquid in the thumper will increase by approximately 10% of the boiler charge due to the increase in abv of the output product ?

No, I wouldn't say 10% of the boiler charge. Most of the volume increase seems to happen in the beginning when it is heating up but not boiling off any vapor, so it is probably more dependent on the size of the thumper charge. My experience is limited to this one anecdote, but it might mean that any size thumper is ok as long as you don't charge it to more than half of its capacity.

EDIT: [This is funny, I've never thought about it in these terms before, but now it seems so obvious.]

So that would mean that your thumper should be sized to the volume of whatever stuff you want to put in it. Just take the maximum value of that and double it. The pot size really wouldn't matter at all. Once it is up to temperature the mass transfer is pretty much a push: volume in equals volume out (plus or minus). Seems like we might have been going at it backwards.

skow69 wrote:No, I wouldn't say 10% of the boiler charge. Most of the volume increase seems to happen in the beginning when it is heating up but not boiling off any vapor, so it is probably more dependent on the size of the thumper charge. My experience is limited to this one anecdote, but it might mean that any size thumper is ok as long as you don't charge it to more than half of its capacity.

EDIT: [This is funny, I've never thought about it in these terms before, but now it seems so obvious.]

So that would mean that your thumper should be sized to the volume of whatever stuff you want to put in it. Just take the maximum value of that and double it. The pot size really wouldn't matter at all. Once it is up to temperature the mass transfer is pretty much a push: volume in equals volume out (plus or minus). Seems like we might have been going at it backwards.

Yes I agree - it does seem obvious doesn't it ? However Kudos to you for thinking it out !

At the beginning it is just a condenser. The latent heat of vapourisation released, heats the thumper and the additional alcohol condensed raises the abv of the wash and lowers it's boiling point as you said earlier. Then it starts up and depending on the abv of the charge depends the abv of the distillate - so the bigger the charge, the more will be condensed into it before it reaches bp and thus the higher the abv of the distillate.

A tiny thumper half full would not take many minutes to boil and thus the increase in abv would be small. A large thumper with a small charge would have the same effect.

Since as you said tho' the still will always be at a higher temp than the thumper, a portion of the first distillate will always be condensed into the thumper, so your "Half and half" would cause the tiny thumper to puke if the still charge was large. Not terribly important perhaps unless pushed to limits as your 5:1 ratio shows

A lot of interesting maths there if anyone can be arsed to do it -

So that is also why some charge their thumpers feints, some with low wines and others with wash, to give the abv a head start.

I filled my thumper up to now for only 4 litres in a volume of 10 ltr, mainly with heavy sediment to prevent scorching. Running at full speed (2,4 kW) I found afterwards that the contents had splashed up to the lid.
I preheated the fillings of both boiler and thumper to about 60 dgr C and I have the impression that the boiler loses a volume more or less the same as the product, while the thumper more or less keeps the same volume of content. So roughly the volume that goes in, also goes out.

About the size or the content of the thumper: the more litres of content it has, the longer it takes for it to warm up. I would start to think it is proportional, if you do not take losses in account. The empty space, or rather air, takes only a very small amount of time or energy to warm up.

I have seen a model in Excel, but it does not work on my Excel and I can not find it again on HD.

I have not enough ferment ready to do a series of runs to find out more. Keep it in mind, though.

.

OP, thanks for asking this question, I had the same one! I opened up the links to do some reading.

Based on this thread, I see the thumper contents as initial volume + warmup volume; where warmup volume is the vapor the first pot condenses until it heats the thumper contents into steam.

A small thumper initial volume would heat to vapor faster and thus the two might not 'puke' since the total volume is low but a large thumper charge would take longer to heat up thus accumulating more condensed vapor from the pot and if that total is larger than the thumper free space it 'pukes'.

Probably also an insulation effect around the thumper will determine steady state fill operation; a well insulated thumper will run with a lower liquid volume. A bare or chilled thumper would run with a higher charge.

Now I wonder, is a higher filled thumper pushing more % or less % than a lower filled thumper? ... If you could control the thumper liquid level would it give more neutral spirits nearly full or nearly empty? Is a low filled thumper the "1.5 runs" while the high filled thumper is the "2 runs" of the range? Is it better to have a tall skinny or short fat thumper?

.

And what if you heat the thumper?

As others have said ; a thumper is a very versatile tool . My own experience with 2 15.5 gallon kegs is that I can fill each with 12 gallons of wash or mash to strip an initial ferment in less time than it takes to do 2 strip runs with just a single pot .
The result is also more concentrated and lends more to a spirit run .
A thumper sized equal to the boiler is less likely to puke as long as you don't overfill it when you begin .
On the spirit run the % ABV is further concentrated and refined . Cuts are more defined .
The charge in the thumper can be minimal . Either water , mash/wash , or flavorings .
This is a dance you learn as you go .
Using a thumper of equal volume to the boiler I only get +/- 6 quarts of additional liquid in the thumper by the end of the run .

I had about 3 pages of reply written and my browser just blipped it into oblivion. Maybe tomorrow.

Nice and simple, it doubles the proof and can be used to introduce better flavour. For instance running peach shine you can put purified peach juice in your thumper.
Just a basic concept for newbie to understand

Kareltje wrote:And what if you heat the thumper?

Logic would say that the thumper charge would reach boiling point earlier and therefore less alcohol would have condensed during it's "condenser period" - so thumper charge lower abv and final distillate lower abv than an unheated thumper and less agian than a cooled thumper.

skow69 wrote:I had about 3 pages of reply written and my browser just blipped it into oblivion. Maybe tomorrow.

I do hope so skow - sometimes I draft it in Word, to prevent that if I'm dooing a long one - then copy and paste.

Pikey wrote: At the beginning it is just a condenser. The latent heat of vapourisation released, heats the thumper and the additional alcohol condensed raises the abv of the wash and lowers it's boiling point as you said earlier. Then it starts up and depending on the abv of the charge depends the abv of the distillate - so the bigger the charge, the more will be condensed into it before it reaches bp and thus the higher the abv of the distillate.

A tiny thumper half full would not take many minutes to boil and thus the increase in abv would be small. A large thumper with a small charge would have the same effect.

Since as you said tho' the still will always be at a higher temp than the thumper, a portion of the first distillate will always be condensed into the thumper, so your "Half and half" would cause the tiny thumper to puke if the still charge was large. Not terribly important perhaps unless pushed to limits as your 5:1 ratio shows

A lot of interesting maths there if anyone can be arsed to do it -

So that is also why some charge their thumpers feints, some with low wines and others with wash, to give the abv a head start.

Edit:
[Edit 2 - just nipped outside for a fag (UK slang) and I can't for the life of me decide whether the size of the thumper charge will make any difference - since it will take longer to reach temperature yes, but the abv will still be the same since the alcohol condensed into the thumper will still be the same proportionally in a small or large thumper charge - The only things that really seems to make a difference in my view would be the initial abv of the thumper charge and the starting temperature of the thumper charge, since ther would be a longer time for the condensate to raise the temp of the thumper to bp - maybe a case for fridging the thumper charge, possibly even adding some ice ]

[Edit 3 - Even more Kudos - to the old 'Shiner who thought it out in the first place - some bright guy ! ]

I think you are confusing mass transfer (thumper getting fuller) with purity (ABV going up). They are actually 2 diferent processes that are fundamentally independent of each other. Mass transfer happens just because the primary is boiling but the secondary isn't, so there is a net gain of material in the thumper.

The ABV goes up because distillation is the process we use to enrich the alcohol content of the mixture which is our product. It will happen regardless of whether there is any mass transfer. This is job we set out to do. Mass transfer is more of a side effect.

Cu29er wrote:.
Now I wonder, is a higher filled thumper pushing more % or less % than a lower filled thumper? ... If you could control the thumper liquid level would it give more neutral spirits nearly full or nearly empty? Is a low filled thumper the "1.5 runs" while the high filled thumper is the "2 runs" of the range? Is it better to have a tall skinny or short fat thumper?
.

I would bet they are exactly the same. Purity increases by a fixed amount with every distillation (or "stage" or "plate"). It happens because of the phase changes, from liquid to vapor and back to liquid. It doesn't know anything about full or empty. It only needs to know the ABV that it is starting with.
EDIT: Fixed the chart so it shows up.

Kareltje wrote:And what if you heat the thumper?

I don't see any advantage that could justify the extra cost. The most you could save is the thumper warm up time. You've got more than enough heat already. I have actually run triple thumpers with no problems. They warmed up and came on line one by one, just like you would expect. And it produced just as fast as the primary alone did, so the only cost was waiting for the tertiary and quaternary units to heat up. Lol. And it can keep you pretty busy checking for leaks.

skow69 wrote:
I think you are confusing mass transfer (thumper getting fuller) with purity (ABV going up).

No - I don't think I am - the distillate which comes over at the beginning, all condenses (ie the start of the "Mass transfer"), but it is relatively high abv and thus raises the abv of the thumper charge - and thereby reduces it's bp. The second distillation will be higher abv than the first, so more water will be left in the thumper than ethanol.

The process wil continue throughout the run, but the distillate leaving the thumper will always be higher abv than that entering it from the still, so the abv of the thumper charge will start to decline and throughout the run there will always be a net increase in the water content of the thumper (ie continued "mass transfer") This will not be noticeable as there is also distillate leaving the thumper which will be richer in ethanol than that entering it, right up to the end when you're pumping neat steam over and pushing out the "tails"

skow69 wrote: They are actually 2 diferent processes that are fundamentally independent of each other. Mass transfer happens just because the primary is boiling but the secondary isn't, so there is a net gain of material in the thumper.

The ABV goes up because distillation is the process we use to enrich the alcohol content of the mixture which is our product. It will happen regardless of whether there is any mass transfer. This is job we set out to do. Mass transfer is more of a side effect.

I can't see that I'm saying anything fundamentally different from what you are am I ? - except perhaps I didn't differentiate in words and perhaps assumed that I could just talk about the abv. Having agreed with you that it was fairly obvious that most of the increase in volume (Temporary "mass transfer") would be at the beginning, whilst all of the distillate was being condensed in the thumper I perhaps assumed I could take that as read

Where are you thinking I am confusing the two ?

skow69 wrote:

Kareltje wrote:And what if you heat the thumper?

I don't see any advantage that could justify the extra cost. ....

I think, whether you heat the thumper independently or via the still, it would take exactly the same amount of energy to heat the same amount of liquid to the same temperature...

Geoff

Well, I can't argue with that, but consider, if you run two burners instead of one for a given time, it would cost more, and you can't reduce the run time by heating the thumper because you still have the same amount of ethanol to extract from the boiler.

See this beautiful self charging thumper ;

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... s#p6782951

Found this thread whilst doing something else

i[Edit - yoou may need tp scroll up a litte but}

Pikey, Oops. It sounds like I just misinterpreted. I think it was the idea of refrigerating the thumper that threw me off, but I see where you were going with that now. Sorry about that.

The Baker wrote:

skow69 wrote:

Kareltje wrote:And what if you heat the thumper?

I don't see any advantage that could justify the extra cost. ....

I think, whether you heat the thumper independently or via the still, it would take exactly the same amount of energy to heat the same amount of liquid to the same temperature...

Geoff

If you bear in mind that chart which skow conveniently posted, The higher the temperature in the thumper, the lower the abv of the charge needs to be to distill and the lower the resultant condensate