gsugg wrote:Has anybody ever seen someone have trouble with their vision/go blind, from consuming homemade? (I'm not talking about somebody that has consumed so much they can't see straight!). I know the potential is there without a doubt if someone is careless. I've just never seen it happen to someone making their own that know what they're doing.
I have a wife of 31 years and two daughters of legal drinking age; and in all 3 cases, none of them will try a new batch until they see me drink some first and prove to themselves it doesn't blind/kill me. When I try to explain to them about fore-shots and being careful when distilling, it doesn't matter. I feel like the royal taste tester in medieval times! And for the most part, my family believes in me and supports me; they just can't get those old tales out of their heads. This is a good part of the reason legalizing our hobby is such a problem. I'm afraid many in our modern society support the Jerry Seinfeld/George Costanza method for separating truth from lies. "If you believe it, it isn't a lie!"
I have started a new thread so as not to go off subject in the original.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:51 am
by Pikey
gsugg wrote:Has anybody ever seen someone have trouble with their vision/go blind, from consuming homemade? (I'm not talking about somebody that has consumed so much they can't see straight!). I know the potential is there without a doubt if someone is careless. I've just never seen it happen to someone making their own that know what they're doing. ......
gsugg, There are some dangers associated with this hobby ; Scalding, fire, divorce, getting drunk andmaking a fool of ourself - etc etc - There is NO danger of sending anyone blind, death by consumption (well only in the normal "Alcohol poisoning " way
The alcohol you make in the fermentation is the same and the only alcohol which can get into the distilled spirit. FACT - there is no "need to be careful" about it. [Edit - There is absolutely no way you can change one alcohol into another, or into anything else, by heating it. - The "Foreshots " cut, just gets rid of a few things which don't taste very nice and all come over together. ]
The "hype" is just propaganda put about by those with a vested interest in making it "sound" risky - It ain't real mate. All the supposed cases have been attributed to someone deliberately adding other stuff into booze, for whatever reason.
Hope that helps
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:35 am
by bluefish_dist
My opinion is this myth is based upon the government forcing the manufaturers of industrial ethanol to increase the % of methanol during prohibition. It did kill people, but not from fermented/distilled alcohol, but drinking denatured alcohol.
IMHO this is perpetuated to keep,people from sampling home made spirits.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:05 pm
by seamusm53
No.....but it might make you grow hair on your palms.
Hearsay. I wouldn't actually know 'bout such things.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:54 pm
by Kareltje
There are sources of knowledge that can easily be found, nowadays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow Methanol when drunk is metabolized first to formaldehyde and then to formic acid or formate salts.[13] These are poisonous to the central nervous system and may result in blindness, coma, and death. Methanol is poisonous to the central nervous system and may cause blindness, coma, and death. However, in small amounts, methanol is a natural endogenous compound found in normal, healthy human individuals, concluded by one study which found a mean of 4.5 ppm in the exhaled breath of subjects.[14] The mean endogenous methanol in humans of 0.45 g/d may be metabolized from pectin found in fruit; one kilogram of apple produces up to 1.4 g methanol.[15] Methanol has a high toxicity in humans. As little as 10 mL of pure methanol, ingested, is metabolized into formic acid, which can cause permanent blindness by destruction of the optic nerve. Thirty mL is potentially fatal,[16] although the median lethal dose is typically 100 mL (3.4 fl oz) (i.e. 1–2 mL/kg body weight of pure methanol[17]). The reference dose for methanol is 2 mg/(kg.day).[18] Toxic effects begin hours after ingestion, and antidotes can often prevent permanent damage.[16]
(reference dose: maximum acceptable oral dose of a toxic substance)
Than there is: http://bookshop.europa.eu/en/a-study-on ... CGNA16864/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Adam, L. & G. Versini
A study on the possibilities to lower the content of methyl-alcohol in eau-de-vie from fruit.
European Commission, Directorate-General XII, EUR 16864 EN, 1996.
ISBN: 92-827-7208-X
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:16 am
by bilgriss
As is also frequently noted, ethanol is also an antidote to methanol.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:53 am
by Swedish Pride
Just put it in your mouth and not your eye and you won't go blind
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:47 am
by Still Life
When I first got into this hobby, a couple close friends told me stills "blow up all the time."
And there was no way to convince the female otherwise! She thought I was brainwashed.
So ignorance isn't just the case. Facts won't even sway some folks.
Of course I heard the "can't you go blind?" argument to the point of being ridiculous.
And again, facts didn't convince some of those people.
So the battle is large, and isn't necessarily shrinking.
Just now we got a new member concerned that distilling could KILL him.
It's gonna take a lot to stop this rolling snowball. And it's tough to do when discretion is otherwise the best policy.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:25 am
by spiff
So its weird then that there are so many news articles about idiots dying from methanol poisoning from home made hooch. I see articles all the time out of India and places like it. So the reality is that in these cases its not the product of the stilling but that they must be manually adding the methanol to their product?
If that's true, "we" should insist on news source accuracy to have them say that is purposeful methanol poisoning and has nothing to do with distilling.
But I find it hard to believe that in all these cases, they're adding the methanol manually and that there is no way to produce methanol in the process in enough amounts to kill and blind as all those articles suggest. These places always seem to be shitholes you hear these stories from... that these "stillers" would buy methanol or anything else to add to their product just doesn't make sense in the scheme of things when they're always trying to make the cheapest possible swill.
So its impossible to ferment something that winds up with more methanol that ethanol? Maybe these idiots are fermenting grass clippings or something.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:55 am
by thecroweater
No, they are adding it , thinners was the big additive then i was there as paint thinners was cheaper then producing alcohol. They would cut it to maximize profits, seen it seen what it does. They are aware what will result but could not care less, for every person who dies or is maimed another will buy it because the higher the toxicity the less ya need to spend to get hammered. These customers are the poorest of the poor for the most part. BTW the uncut spirit these crowds get off village distillers is not to bad, generally fermented sugar cane juice and/or some other in season fruit.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:57 am
by cuginosgrizzo
spiff wrote:
But I find it hard to believe that in all these cases, they're adding the methanol manually and that there is no way to produce methanol in the process in enough amounts to kill and blind as all those articles suggest. These places always seem to be shitholes you hear these stories from... that these "stillers" would buy methanol or anything else to add to their product just doesn't make sense in the scheme of things when they're always trying to make the cheapest possible swill.
That's exactly the case. The cases of poisoning that we hear about are due to idiots cutting drinking alcohol with whatever cheap methylated alcohol they can get their hands on. One of the cases I remember was due to people drinking huge quantities of mouth wash that contained methyl alcohol.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:28 am
by Pikey
Still Life wrote:
........And again, facts didn't convince some of those people..........
Sadly, from distilling to weight loss, legislation to Carbon Dioxide, facts are consistently ignored when there's a good story to be told
It is important that all our members are completely comfortable with the facts we all know, it seems even some of our own, are not really convinced
Apart from that our friends in the micro distilleries and those from South Africa and New Zealand are where the truth must come from.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:01 pm
by Kareltje
Facts hardly ever convince people.
Only people who are open about a problem can be convinced by facts.
Others are only strengthening themselves in their beliefs.
I have seen articles in scientific periodicals with a title like: "Facts prove system A is better." And the graphs and tables in the article proved otherwise.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:41 pm
by Pikey
I don't know if you have researched the CO2= Global Warming issue K, but that is just exactly what we are trying to fight here !
3 parts in 10,000, may have increased to 3.5 parts in 10,000 - ergo Ice caps melting because we now have a blanket !!!!!
T'internet is good, but also by allowing the ignorant to mass together and chant in unison, it is a huge danger to logical thought and independent intelligence !
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:55 am
by Corsaire
Pikey,
Everyone knows the lack of pirates causes global warming.
I'll continue making rum to combat this.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:39 am
by BugHunter
Say you brew 5 gallons of beer. It will contain a small amount of methanol, but nobody ever worries about damage from it because it's so small. If you distill that beer into whisky, most of the methanol will get through the still, but a large portion of it will get tossed out in the foreshots or the heads.
Remember the rule of thumb that a pint of beer has the same amount of ethanol as a glass of wine or a shot of 80 proof liquor? That pint of beer has all the ethanol it started with, and that shot of liquor has had a significant amount of its methanol removed. But even if you don't throw out any foreshots or heads and thus keep all of the methanol (and end up with a nasty smelling/tasting product), you'd still have the same amount of methanol in that shot as you would in the pint of beer. No more.
Have you ever heard of someone going blind from methanol in beer? Unless it somehow gets added to the liquor, it's no more dangerous than beer or wine. Methanol doesn't get created in the still.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:59 am
by bluefish_dist
There is a thread on a study that suggests that methanol does not get concentrated in the fores/heads, so drinking distilled spirits is no different than beer or wine as far as methanol is concerned. Supposedly orange juice has more methanol than beer or wine.
I stand by my earlier statement than its a myth based on prohibition era actions, that is perpetuated by those that collect taxes to keep people from making/drinking untaxed liquor. As distillers we should work to debunk the myth.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:11 am
by jon1163
BugHunter wrote:Say you brew 5 gallons of beer. It will contain a small amount of methanol, but nobody ever worries about damage from it because it's so small. If you distill that beer into whisky, most of the methanol will get through the still, but a large portion of it will get tossed out in the foreshots or the heads.
Remember the rule of thumb that a pint of beer has the same amount of ethanol as a glass of wine or a shot of 80 proof liquor? That pint of beer has all the ethanol it started with, and that shot of liquor has had a significant amount of its methanol removed. But even if you don't throw out any foreshots or heads and thus keep all of the methanol (and end up with a nasty smelling/tasting product), you'd still have the same amount of methanol in that shot as you would in the pint of beer. No more.
Have you ever heard of someone going blind from methanol in beer? Unless it somehow gets added to the liquor, it's no more dangerous than beer or wine. Methanol doesn't get created in the still.
This is the best way I have heard it described... Something to remember when people keep asking me about it.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:10 pm
by Pikey
BugHunter wrote:Say you brew 5 gallons of beer. It will contain a small amount of methanol, but nobody ever worries about damage from it because it's so small. If you distill that beer into whisky, most of the methanol will get through the still, but a large portion of it will get tossed out in the foreshots or the heads.
If you read up on that one on these threads, that seems to be logical, but appears to be outdated information, as Bluefish says above. We now believe that methanol is pretty evenly distributed throughout the run.
Remember the rule of thumb that a pint of beer has the same amount of ethanol as a glass of wine or a shot of 80 proof liquor? That pint of beer has all the ethanol it started with, and that shot of liquor has had a significant amount of its methanol removed. But even if you don't throw out any foreshots or heads and thus keep all of the methanol (and end up with a nasty smelling/tasting product), you'd still have the same amount of methanol in that shot as you would in the pint of beer. No more.
Again the threads make it pretty certain that the Wine will have considerably more methanol than the beer and brandy has quite a lot of methanol in comparison to whiskies and sugarheads. It seems that pectin in the fruit, leads to some at least of the methanol and we are not sure whether the use of pectolytic enzyme reduces or increases the methanol content. However, it must be remembered that we are talking tiny amounts even so and the commercial wines etc have just as much. You are likely to have died of alcohol poisoning long before any adverse effects of methanol would be noticed.
Have you ever heard of someone going blind from methanol in beer? Unless it somehow gets added to the liquor, it's no more dangerous than beer or wine. Methanol doesn't get created in the still.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:43 pm
by thecroweater
Well actually kinda they will never be noticed because if consumed with a much higher percentage of ethanol your body can't metabolize the methanol. Some fruits are higher in pectin and some really are quite low, this is why jams made for instance out of stone fruit like peaches or apricots have Apple and/or citrus added. Its because the pectin level is so low in them they require very high pectin fruits (apple or citrus peel) to set them without the help of excessive amounts of pectin added. I think pectinase gets a worse rap than it deserves. I'll be the first to say I was one that had in the past spoke against its use as it likely does increase the chance of methanol production, but what needs to be put into context is by how much and what increase in risk is there, the answer for most fruit is negligible increases. A simple Google search will yield a ton of collaborating information on amounts of pectin in various fruits as it plays such a big part in jam, jelly and wine making.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:38 am
by Kareltje
bluefish_dist wrote:There is a thread on a study that suggests that methanol does not get concentrated in the fores/heads, so drinking distilled spirits is no different than beer or wine as far as methanol is concerned. Supposedly orange juice has more methanol than beer or wine.
I stand by my earlier statement than its a myth based on prohibition era actions, that is perpetuated by those that collect taxes to keep people from making/drinking untaxed liquor. As distillers we should work to debunk the myth.
I think you mean this report:
https://publications.europa.eu/nl/publi ... b6abc1aa37" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Adam, L. & G. Versini
A study on the possibilities to lower the content of methyl-alcohol in eau-de-vie from fruit.
European Commission, Directorate-General XII, EUR 16864 EN, 1996.
ISBN: 92-827-7208-X
Methanol does get concentrated in the fores and heads, but not completely. It is distilled almost through the whole run, up and into the tails.
This study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5028366/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ohimain, Elijah Ige
Methanol contamination in traditionally fermented alcoholic beverages: the microbial dimension
Springerplus. 2016; 5(1): 1607.
Published online 2016 Sep 20. doi: 10.1186/s40064-016-3303-1
This author gives a list of found traditionally fermented beverages with the normal amount of methanol. The highest limit is 1,5 %BV of methanol in spirit of fruit marc. This is the regulatory limit in the EU. The daily safe dose of methanol is 2 gr and a toxic dose is 8 gr. So you can drink more than 1 litre of marc spirit and you will still be safe methanol-wise.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:42 am
by Kareltje
I have seen an article comparising the activity of different pectinases and methanol content of the wine. It was quite clear that the better pectinase resulted in a higher methanol content.
It was a glimpse in a paper magazine about vinology and I can't find it again.
But even then: it were only small amounts.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:11 pm
by CraftyZA
I once made a red wine from catawba grapes. Used lalvin to ferment. Something in that process created so much other alcohols (non ethanol) that it was undrinkable. I kid you not, when you opened the bottle it smelled like nail polish remover. Catawba has a strong smell. Think grape jelly. It was completely masked. I suspect it was because i left the husks in the fermentation, or the fact that I heated it. I’m convinced that if i distilled that wine it would have resulted in a dangerous product.
Going to try it again this year. It looks like i might have a massive harvest this year. Will use the husks for jelly, and the flesh for brandy.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:57 am
by rgreen2002
bluefish is correct in the notion that much of this stems from the prohibition era in this country. If you haven't read it, get a look at "The Poisoner's Handbook". It's about the birth of Forensic Medicine here in the US. It's a great read, and a part of it has to do with exactly this topic.
CraftyZA wrote:I once made a red wine from catawba grapes. Used lalvin to ferment. Something in that process created so much other alcohols (non ethanol) that it was undrinkable. I kid you not, when you opened the bottle it smelled like nail polish remover. ..................
I think yo'll find the fault in a poor sanitary protocol in your fermentation.
That "nail polish" smell is a bit of a giveaway that your wine has been infected and is probably part way to turning to vinegar.
As a distiller, you will learn that infections are usually not a great issue, because the wash gets distilled quick.
As a winemaker a vinegar infection is definitely a huge issue - probably the most serious of all.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:26 am
by still_stirrin
Pikey wrote:
CraftyZA wrote:...I kid you not, when you opened the bottle it smelled like nail polish remover...
That "nail polish" smell is a bit of a giveaway that your wine has been infected and is probably part way to turning to vinegar...
Minor correction here...
Nail polish remover smell is acetone (a keytone produced by the fermentation process), or possibly ethyl acetate a further reduction of the molecule. This is a smell often identifiable in the early heads or foreshots.
wikipedia wrote:Nail polish remover is an organic solvent that may also include oils, scents, and coloring. Nail polish remover packages may include individual felt pads soaked in remover, a bottle of liquid remover used with a cotton ball or cotton pad, or a container filled with foam into which one inserts a finger and twists it until the polish comes off. Choosing a type of remover is determined by the user's preference, and often the price or quality of the remover.
The most common remover is acetone. This can be harsh on skin and nails. Acetone can also remove artificial nails made of acrylic or cured gel.
A less harsh nail polish remover is ethyl acetate, which often also contains isopropyl alcohol. Ethyl acetate is usually the original solvent for nail polish itself.
It is a completely different aroma than vinegar, which is acetic acid. Vinegar is the aroma identifiable while making dill pickles, or sauerkraut. Vinegar can be produced if infected with the acetobacter. Acetobacter is a genus of acetic acid bacteria. Acetic acid bacteria are characterized by the ability to convert ethanol to acetic acid in the presence of oxygen. And acetobacter is most often carried by fruit flies, who love the ethyl acetate (fresh fruit/green apple smells). So, open fermenters can enable the "vinegar mother" to start in your brewery.
Also, the acetones and ethyl acetate have a different boiling point than vinegar, which will come over at a different time in the boil. The acetones and ethyl acetates are volatiles and will come over in the fores and early heads...that's what they are. Vinegar, on the other hand, has a higher boiling point so it will only come over later in the boil, if at all, most likely with tails.
So Crafty, all kidding aside, what you got will depend on your processes as well as ingredients. But most likely, it isn't a result of the fruit directly...just how well you did, or didn't prepare the fruit for fermentation.
ss
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:35 am
by Pikey
wikipedia wrote:Occurrence in wines
Ethyl acetate is the most common ester in wine, being the product of the most common volatile organic acid – acetic acid, and the ethyl alcohol generated during the fermentation. The aroma of ethyl acetate is most vivid in younger wines and contributes towards the general perception of "fruitiness" in the wine. Sensitivity varies, with most people having a perception threshold around 120 mg/L. Excessive amounts of ethyl acetate are considered a wine fault. Exposure to oxygen can exacerbate the fault due to the oxidation of ethanol to acetaldehyde, which leaves the wine with a sharp vinegar-like taste.[7]
wikipedia wrote:Reactions
Ethyl acetate can be hydrolyzed in acidic or basic conditions to regain acetic acid and ethanol.
Wine is acidic.
- No vinegar, no ethyl acetate - ?
I'm probably wrong - but if it smelled of "nail polish" - we used to bin the wine as "turning" - the production of the first "vinegar" - produced the smell. It seems from the above that as the vinegar increases, the acetate could be broken down again into alcohol and vinegar -
I don't know much about vinegar production, except in Wine making - we don't want anything which has been in contact with vinegar anywhere near our ferments !
[Edit As for "acetone" smell - taste - The "Turbo yeast" boys use all the carbon filtering and other "treatments" to remove that crap - Me ? I'd rather do it right in the first place ! ]
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:43 am
by CraftyZA
Should I heat the fruit before fermentation to kill the nasties? To what temperature?
At this point it seems like i’m hijacking if it is not about methanol creation. Will start new thread if op insists.
I’m really excited to try a catawba brandy this year.
Re: Will it send me blind ?
Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:09 am
by thecroweater
distilling that wine would not have been dangerous but may have had an increased faints and fore shot cut. Don't pre-cook fruit as it will then taste like stewed fruit which is just weird in brandy and not especially pleasant.
