Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

BayouShine wrote:
RedwoodHillBilly wrote: Once you build and run one, let me know. I built one 2 yrs ago and have run it many times. It is still a CM system, but the RC is also a valve. When you have experience with with a CCVM, let us know how the output temp correlates with output ABV.

Look, I don't want to get into a pissing match. But, you are basing your responses based on theory, not on actual experience. When you have experience with this system, I'm more than willing to listen to your results.
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=59420

I've been running this type of still for a while cuz. This isn't theory, I'm coming from experience here.

This is, in fact, a VM type still, not CM.
OK, cool. You're right that it is a VM. The CCVM has some characteristics of a CM as well. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend, but I've seen many opinions without facts to back them up.

Nevertheless, in a reflux column (what ever type) one can control the output ABV by controlling the amount of reflux vs takeoff rate. The output ABV can be measured by vapor temperature.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

Guys, I'm just trying to help yall out here. Take my advice as you wish. I would love to physically show yall what I'm talking about, but our hobby makes that a bit difficult.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by bluefish_dist »

I run my VM by temp all the time. Head temp is proportional to abv if you adjust for pressure. It is not linear. That makes some regions of the curve not very useful as small temp changes are big abv changes. The only problem with a ccvm that I see is the probe has to go in the column below the valve and be protected from falling condensate to get a useful measurement.
If placed in the output arm there may not be enough vapor to get a good reading as the thermometer is down stream of the valve. If placed in the column without a shield the falling condensate will make it read low due to the liquid cooling as it evaporates.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by KingE »

Bayou is right. I run mine by the sound of my marble packing and the temperature of my coolant. Marbles need to be rattling some in the fluid bed (wattage) and coolant less than 140 at outlet(flow rate). I don’t have a sight glass. It would be fun, like watching a fire, but I don’t need it. I can tell you that running slow is counter productive on my 3” CCVM. Try to get your rig balanced at full power and back off from there if you need to. You might be surprised how much power it will take and how efficient it is like that. Here’s another hint. I’ve found that my coolant needs adjusted at cut points.

Keep running it man! Light bulbs will come on as you go. It’s impossible to find patterns without enough data points, right?! You might find that your thermometer gives you clues that help you and that would be great! If it does, those clues will correlate with the ones we are talking about, so don’t discount those of us who’ve never tried a thermometer. What we are saying can help you find them.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

KingE wrote:I run mine by the sound of my marble packing and the temperature of my coolant. Marbles need to be rattling some in the fluid bed (wattage) and coolant less than 140 at outlet(flow rate).
Right.

But if you're not running marbles and have no sight glass, you can listen to the noises the still makes. When you reach a fluidized bed/aquatic environment/etc., the still will make a sloshing/gurgling sound that's pretty noticeable. It's the distillate dancing on top of the rising vapors. It's just another clue that lets you know that you're just about there.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

Finally found my own stinking video. This is what I'm talking about.
https://youtu.be/yqNU7WYkIMw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

When my sight glass shows a stable level of liquid then I have the power just right - no need for a thermometer. I set once and forget the coolant flow. I control amount of reflux by raising and lowering the reflux condenser. If I can keep the level of the condensate fluid visible in the sightglass then I am nowhere near spilling condensate out via the offtake
https://youtu.be/jAP21_wocvQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
sorry for the wobbly vision, I had to stand on a stool to record that. I was getting output that time on a 2" CCVM at 95% temp-corrected at 1.2 litres per hour (20mls / minute) :thumbup:

I've owned a CM, ran this system as a VM but now have stuck with the CCVM; by far the easiest system of the three to operate!
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by Saltbush Bill »

artooks wrote:unfortunately it does not give me a correct reading I really would like to have a correct reading in my ccvm still,
Artooks what temp do you consider to be the correct temp ?
Thermometers in distilling are a pain in the arse, they serve only to confuse the new distiller, they can tell the experienced distiller a little, but nothing that cant be told in some other easier way.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

I had my thermometer on the offtake. The probe nearly reached the floor of the offtake to make sure the tip was well in the vapour path? I can see why the thermo where you have it gives misleading results.

use enough power to kep a stable level of the condensate in your sight glass
run enough coolant so that you can just keep the system in total reflux with the RC in the lowest position,
get those two settings right and then it is just a matter of raising or lowering the RC

if the level of condensate falls away in the sight glass either lower the RC OR increase power to the boiler (by a tiniest amount)
If you need to increase the power by a lot you have reached tails - it is all that easy
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by durty_dunderpants »

well you guys have convinced me at least - ain't gonna bother trying to find a place for a thermo in my new ccvm :D

some great explanations and videos given that improve what i'd already understood about the operation of these stills so thanks for that! if i may; is the theory that if you are maintaining that level of fluid condensate shown in your videos at the top of the sightglass then you are getting consistant and maximum HETP from your column? and that is how you know you are taking off a consistant product (that would be dictated by the height of the column)?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Saltbush Bill wrote:
artooks wrote:unfortunately it does not give me a correct reading I really would like to have a correct reading in my ccvm still,
Artooks what temp do you consider to be the correct temp ?
Thermometers in distilling are a pain in the arse, they serve only to confuse the new distiller, they can tell the experienced distiller a little, but nothing that cant be told in some other easier way.
Hi,

I can easily follow the temp in a pot still, I just wanna be able to see at what vapour temperature I am running my reflux, just to watch the progress, buy unfortunately, it starts with 100℉ and ends in 117℉ so this is confusing today I checked my thermometer and saw that the stem is short it does not go down to the middle part of the tee, anyway I really suspect if it will show the correct temperature if I had used a longer stem because after a while it will stabilize and the vapour will also reach in the temperature which has a shorter stem. Is that correct ? so maybe the reason that I am having this problem is due to dialing the power to 700 Watts, and getting a slow output I have always have the tendency to run the still slow but I guess that becomes a problem in a reflux still.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

I also wanted to add when I go in full reflux with 600-700 Watt power I can see that only a tiny water like a string goes down to the boiler, so when I increase the power will I see a lof of water that has been condensed and go back in the boiler, just trying to understand the videos that has been posted compared to mine, because I do not see that much water in my still during full reflux
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

artooks wrote:just trying to understand the videos that has been posted compared to mine, because I do not see that much water in my still during full reflux
That's because you're underpowering your still during the run.

You need enough vapor speed to keep that fluidized bed suspended in the packing. With you running at such a low power, the distillate just falls straight back to the boiler.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

BayouShine wrote:
artooks wrote:just trying to understand the videos that has been posted compared to mine, because I do not see that much water in my still during full reflux
That's because you're underpowering your still during the run.

You need enough vapor speed to keep that fluidized bed suspended in the packing. With you running at such a low power, the distillate just falls straight back to the boiler.
Thanks yes I think that looks like my problem will try and report it, so how much do you open the reflux condenser, and I am running my reflux still with a 3 gallon boiler so how much heat in Watts do I need to apply and after the full reflux how much I need to open the rc ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by KingE »

kimbodious wrote:
use enough power to kep a stable level of the condensate in your sight glass
run enough coolant so that you can just keep the system in total reflux with the RC in the lowest position,
get those two settings right and then it is just a matter of raising or lowering the RC

if the level of condensate falls away in the sight glass either lower the RC OR increase power to the boiler (by a tiniest amount)
If you need to increase the power by a lot you have reached tails - it is all that easy
This explains how I do it. Start at full power. Lower the power if you need to to balance out at full reflux (reflux coil all the way down) like kimbodious says.

@ Bayou. That’s cool that everyone can run by sound! I’ve only used the marbles.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

artooks wrote:so how much do you open the reflux condenser, and I am running my reflux still with a 3 gallon boiler so how much heat in Watts do I need to apply and after the full reflux how much I need to open the rc ?
Unfortunately, no one will be able to give you a solid answer on this. It will vary with each individual still.

This is what I would do. Get everything balanced out. When it's ready, raise the RC a small amount then wait a moment for the still to react. If you don't get any collection, raise it a little more. Once you find the point that gives you a good collection rate and doesn't crash the fluidized bed, mark that level on your RC (I have a piece of copper wire wrapped around one of the CSST hoses). You can make small adjustments from there to dial it in perfectly.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

I use yellow zipties to mark the settings for my RC. Total reflux is when the topmost ziptie is just visible at the top of the column. Optimum setting for output when the lowest ziptie is just visible. There is about 4" difference between the marks.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by DAD300 »

BayouShine & kimbodious are giving it to you straight!

With a CCVM you can feel the top of the boiler and the column, and tell when the vapor is reaching the top and then you open the valve (raise the Reflux Coil) to get the ABV and take off rate you want.

The only other thing you need to know is that the reflux cooling water is cold enough to stop all vapor...somewhere between 120-140F.

More or less power is up to you! Balance it to get the product you want.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

DAD300 wrote:BayouShine & kimbodious are giving it to you straight!

With a CCVM you can feel the top of the boiler and the column, and tell when the vapor is reaching the top and then you open the valve (raise the Reflux Coil) to get the ABV and take off rate you want.

The only other thing you need to know is that the reflux cooling water is cold enough to stop all vapor...somewhere between 120-140F.

More or less power is up to you! Balance it to get the product you want.
Thanks DAD, this is also what I do, but what I was really asking is when more power is applied should the relux position opened even more to enable the thermometer to read out, my main problem is that the thermometer is not showing the correct reading.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

the thermometer that I go has only 2.5" stem so it is not very long, but I do not know if this is causing one of the problems ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

Artooks your thermometer is in the wrong place if you want to measure the temperature in the vapour path. The vapour parh is vertical and falling away from the tip of your probe in that position.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

durty_dunderpants wrote: is the theory that if you are maintaining that level of fluid condensate shown in your videos at the top of the sightglass then you are getting consistant and maximum HETP from your column? and that is how you know you are taking off a consistant product (that would be dictated by the height of the column)?
You've got me there! I've never worked out the HETP let alone know how to pronounce it? :lol:

Seriously with my system It is a balancing act between power applied and risk of flooding. Flooding is the limiting factor of my system. Any more than 1600W and I am getting more condensate than can all flow back to the boiler without spilling out the offtake. So if I keep just under that I get pretty bubbles in my sight glass and 1.2 litres per hour at 95%

Maybe I can reduce some of the SS scrubber packing and get slightly higher output with the risk of lower ABV , To be honest I am in no rush where quality is concerned, a long day on a spirit run is a great excuse to goof off in an otherwise busy modern life.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by durty_dunderpants »

cheers kimbodius. it's interesting that when i was first reading about reflux still control it seemed to all be about balancing reflux/output to keep the thermometer stable to know you are taking off at maximum purity. i guess in the same way you might choose to watch a parrot. unless i got this wrong, since seeing this thread and consequently looking around on here there's actually quite a few of yous that only seem to be interested with whats happening in the sightglass at the top of the column.

heh i know i'll be able to answer my own questions soon enough. cannot wait to have my ccvm set up and working out her habits and limits. the wait for these last parts is killin me..
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

I put in the sightglass because try as I might with my insulated column and surfers' ear I could not detect flooding in the column just from the sound of ii.

Liquid in the sightglass shows me that there is vapour reaching the RC and the RC is achieving good knockdown. I also infer that I am getting sufficient reflux action while there is a constant level of the liquid which also tells me when I am applying an optimum level of power flooding management wise (about 1600W). My issue with flooding keeps me from pushing the power to the point where I need greater reflux to maintain maximum ABV at the higher rate of output. Wow, it helps my understanding to have to put it in to words!
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by Cu29er »

.

Measure in the space between the top of the last plate/packing and before the cooling (plus be mindful of where the takeoff is located). Then you are measuring what is going on with the steady-state liquid-vapor mixture where it is most important for takeoff. Any of the controls get out of whack and the takeoff gets watered down.

If you can measure multiple locations like the pot and cooling water too that is only additional information to learn with.

It's all kind of like trying to drive a car with one foot on the gas and the other foot on the brake while the kids are fighting in the back. Everyone got their seat belts buckled?

.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

durty_dunderpants wrote:it's interesting that when i was first reading about reflux still control it seemed to all be about balancing reflux/output to keep the thermometer stable to know you are taking off at maximum purity. i guess in the same way you might choose to watch a parrot. unless i got this wrong, since seeing this thread and consequently looking around on here there's actually quite a few of yous that only seem to be interested with whats happening in the sightglass at the top of the column.
One thing to consider is how long ago those posts were made. That was cutting edge at the time. New information and techniques have come about in the last few years.

That's what makes reading up on the site so important. In a few years, what we're doing now may go out of favor because something else has been discovered. We're an experimental bunch at heart and things change.

C'est la vie.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

durty_dunderpants wrote: there's actually quite a few of yous that only seem to be interested with whats happening in the sightglass at the top of the column...
In earlier runs I would have checked ABV against particular settings and from that experience I now just monitor the operating conditions via the sight glass. It is just about knowing your system.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi,

I did a trial today I lowered the rc and increased the reflux and also increased the power to 1400 Watt well it was much faster I was getting 1.26 litres in 1 hrs @ 95% ABV well also because I increased the power and heat as a result of that there was much more liquid due to the steam inside the boiler and my thermometer increased upto 62 degrees Celsius so I must say it was a good trial, what I saw that if I reduce the reflux by moving the rc up and use more power the ABV drops, so I think it is better to keep the valve barely open and increase the power so the ABV would not drop do you also agree ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by bluefish_dist »

There is an optimal vapor speed. Too high and you drive the tails up the column. I try and aim for 20 ft/ /sec or less for scrubbies. SPP can go fast I am told, but have not been able to achieve it with the SPP I had. There are a couple of calculators around that make it easy to determine.
Once you get beyond that, more power will lower abv or require more reflux to hold azeo. So if you are running at azeo and abv drops you can increase reflux or if below 15-20 fps vapor speed, increase power, if above 20, reduce power.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

artooks wrote:I was getting 1.26 litres in 1 hrs @ 95% ABV
Much better.

Keep experimenting with the RC position until you figure out the sweet spot on your still. Mark that position and repeat from there.
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