Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

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artooks
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Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi,

Below you will see my CCVM still, with the thermometer on the right hand side, unfortunately it does not give me a correct reading I really would like to have a correct reading in my ccvm still, I researched the forum but could not find a good solution, could someone please explain me how to do it, who achieved this problem.

Thanks
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

Like I told you in your cuts thread, put it in the cooling water outlet. You don't need that thermometer in the still itself. Keep the cooling water under 120* and balance everything out and drive with the sight glass.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by durty_dunderpants »

that's where most people seem to have it, so what is the problem you are finding?
RedwoodHillBilly

Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

Artooks, That's where I put mine. As much as I like Rick at Brewhaus, I haven't had good luck with that digital thermometer. They either don't work or are way off in temperature. I would recommend that you get a simple analog bi-metal thermometer. Something like this. https://www.amazon.com/CNS-Gauges-Dial- ... B00TZG2030" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow There are many to choose from depending on dial size, probe length and thread size.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

I use my still as a pot still and a reflux still the problem is when using it as a reflux still that temperature shows the temp between 36 - 45 degrees celcius but when using it normally as a pot still it is fine so I am wondering why I am having a wrong reading in reflux mode ? Maybe because the pre condenser is not fully open so where should I place the thermometer ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by zed255 »

Any thermometer will need to have the probe in the vapour path. Is the thermometer probe long enough to get a good part of the probe's end at or below the branch in the 'T'?

I actually built my own thermometer based on an LM35D temperature sensor and a digital panel meter. Rolled and soldered some 1/4" tube closed at one end and inserted the sensor into that. Works very well and I was able to customize my probe position the correct location on my rig (not a CCVM but a Nixon-Stone offset using 'T's in a similar fashion).
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by Swedish Pride »

i don't have a termo at all.
seems to work anyways
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by durty_dunderpants »

it looks like you're not using a thermowell right? does it eventually show a better reading when you open the vapour path fully?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi,

I got this thermometer from Brewhaus, it works ok when it is in potstill mode, but as I said it does not work very well when in reflux mode, I suspect that after I finish refluxing
for 30 minutes I slowly raise the valve, I think that not much steam passes from there so this is why it does not read it correctly I think, can it be ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

I don't use a thermometer on my CCVM. I started out using one in the vapour path (offtake) but it was more distracting than helpful.
Last edited by kimbodious on Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by jonnys_spirit »

RHB sent an amazon link to some thermo's that have different lengths. 9" and 6". I'm sure you could get different lengths as well such that the sensor end will be wholly in the vapor path..

How much output do you get out of it when taking off product and in partial reflux?

Cheers and good luck!
-j
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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RedwoodHillBilly

Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

jonnys_spirit wrote:RHB sent an amazon link to some thermo's that have different lengths. 9" and 6". I'm sure you could get different lengths as well such that the sensor end will be wholly in the vapor path..

How much output do you get out of it when taking off product and in partial reflux?

Cheers and good luck!
-j
FWIW, I use a Parker that has a 5" dial, 6" stem and a 1/2 NPT thread. This puts the stem in the vapor path. The Parker (as well as others) has a "calibration" screw in the back that will rotate the dial face to allow you set an offset calibration.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

jonnys_spirit wrote:RHB sent an amazon link to some thermo's that have different lengths. 9" and 6". I'm sure you could get different lengths as well such that the sensor end will be wholly in the vapor path..

How much output do you get out of it when taking off product and in partial reflux?

Cheers and good luck!
-j
Hi in partial reflux I get around 95% ABV I get 250 ml in 30 minutes ? so 8.3ml / minute
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Oh ok. Is that slow or fast? I haven't actually measured my typical lph but yours seems sorta slow @ 0.5lph?...How much power are you putting into it?

Cheers,
j
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

RedwoodHillBilly wrote:
jonnys_spirit wrote:RHB sent an amazon link to some thermo's that have different lengths. 9" and 6". I'm sure you could get different lengths as well such that the sensor end will be wholly in the vapor path..

How much output do you get out of it when taking off product and in partial reflux?

Cheers and good luck!
-j
FWIW, I use a Parker that has a 5" dial, 6" stem and a 1/2 NPT thread. This puts the stem in the vapor path. The Parker (as well as others) has a "calibration" screw in the back that will rotate the dial face to allow you set an offset calibration.
Hi RHB can you read the temp correctly during partial reflux with your setup ? unfortunately during partial reflux mine starts to read 100℉ and end up 117℉ I can see a progress but I cannot read the correct temperature, can you manage to read the correct temperature ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

artooks wrote: Hi in partial reflux I get around 95% ABV I get 250 ml in 30 minutes ? so 8.3ml / minute
jonnys_spirit wrote:Oh ok. Is that slow or fast? I haven't actually measured my typical lph but yours seems sorta slow @ 0.5lph?...How much power are you putting into it?
That's exceedingly slow. That still will produce 95%ABV @ 2L/hr with no issues.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

BayouShine wrote:
artooks wrote: Hi in partial reflux I get around 95% ABV I get 250 ml in 30 minutes ? so 8.3ml / minute
jonnys_spirit wrote:Oh ok. Is that slow or fast? I haven't actually measured my typical lph but yours seems sorta slow @ 0.5lph?...How much power are you putting into it?
That's exceedingly slow. That still will produce 95%ABV @ 2L/hr with no issues.
Hi,

What I am doing is I am barely opening the valve and dial down the temp so how much do you open the valve and how much heat do you apply ?

I am applying 700-750 watt after the full reflux
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by jonnys_spirit »

How much power do you apply and how much do you have available?

More power makes it go faster and less power makes it go slower.

If it's slower then the theory is that you have decreased vapour in the path and your thermometer measures inaccurately.

Have you tried adding more power and different rates of reflux to tune the operation and rate of output?

Cheers!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
RedwoodHillBilly

Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

artooks wrote:
RedwoodHillBilly wrote:
jonnys_spirit wrote:RHB sent an amazon link to some thermo's that have different lengths. 9" and 6". I'm sure you could get different lengths as well such that the sensor end will be wholly in the vapor path..

How much output do you get out of it when taking off product and in partial reflux?

Cheers and good luck!
-j
FWIW, I use a Parker that has a 5" dial, 6" stem and a 1/2 NPT thread. This puts the stem in the vapor path. The Parker (as well as others) has a "calibration" screw in the back that will rotate the dial face to allow you set an offset calibration.
Hi RHB can you read the temp correctly during partial reflux with your setup ? unfortunately during partial reflux mine starts to read 100℉ and end up 117℉ I can see a progress but I cannot read the correct temperature, can you manage to read the correct temperature ?
Yes I can. It correlates very well with the parrot. I did, of course, calibrate the thermometer and the stem is long enough to read the vapor leading to the product condenser.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

I usually run between 2000-2500W when everything is stabilized. I open the valve enough to get the collection rate I want.

The whole issue is that you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Get rid of that thermometer. There's been several folks in this thread that have told you that you don't need one and it's also in the original CCVM thread by DAD300...
DAD300 wrote:I take an external temp (with a meat thermometer) on the boiler to see when I am getting to heatup of about 145 deg F and I slow heatup by lowering the power to run power. Boiler starts around 70 deg F and gets to 145 in 30 minutes with 4,500 watts. 145 to 170ist takes 20 minutes at 3,000 watts, takes 10-15 minutes for vapor to fill column and could have first signs of product at one hour after power on.

After the run starts I sample the coolant water temp, at the end of hose, where I put the heated water into storage (hot tub). This is the only temp that means anything, to me. I keep the reflux coil below 140 deg F, thus not letting any vapor escape out the top.

I don't think temps are very important within the column. If your boiler is giving off vapor, and you're getting the desired ethanol output (quantity and quality), life is good.

I know it could start a war around here, but I don't see it as any different than a pot still! Make vapor, science makes vapor come off in the right order, control vapor by watching output...collect in small vessels and cut to desired product.

After you've run your still successfully two or three times, you know what is happening!
Once you start driving this still like it should be, you'll be a hell of a lot more efficient at this.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

jonnys_spirit wrote:How much power do you apply and how much do you have available?

More power makes it go faster and less power makes it go slower.

If it's slower then the theory is that you have decreased vapour in the path and your thermometer measures inaccurately.

Have you tried adding more power and different rates of reflux to tune the operation and rate of output?

Cheers!
-j
Hi, I ususally apply 700-800 watt of power after the reflux finishes and barely open the valve, my main aim was to do this thing slow, I have more than enough power max power I have is 3200 Watts. how much power do you apply in a 2" CCVM and how much do you open the valve after the reflux ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

BayouShine wrote:I usually run between 2000-2500W when everything is stabilized. I open the valve enough to get the collection rate I want.

The whole issue is that you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Get rid of that thermometer. There's been several folks in this thread that have told you that you don't need one and it's also in the original CCVM thread by DAD300...
DAD300 wrote:I take an external temp (with a meat thermometer) on the boiler to see when I am getting to heatup of about 145 deg F and I slow heatup by lowering the power to run power. Boiler starts around 70 deg F and gets to 145 in 30 minutes with 4,500 watts. 145 to 170ist takes 20 minutes at 3,000 watts, takes 10-15 minutes for vapor to fill column and could have first signs of product at one hour after power on.

After the run starts I sample the coolant water temp, at the end of hose, where I put the heated water into storage (hot tub). This is the only temp that means anything, to me. I keep the reflux coil below 140 deg F, thus not letting any vapor escape out the top.

I don't think temps are very important within the column. If your boiler is giving off vapor, and you're getting the desired ethanol output (quantity and quality), life is good.

I know it could start a war around here, but I don't see it as any different than a pot still! Make vapor, science makes vapor come off in the right order, control vapor by watching output...collect in small vessels and cut to desired product.

After you've run your still successfully two or three times, you know what is happening!
Once you start driving this still like it should be, you'll be a hell of a lot more efficient at this.
Hi, I know that I do not need a thermometer, but I like to watch the progress so do you have an 2" CCVM still if so you said that you run it between 2000-2500 so how much do you open the valve once it has been stabilised ?
RedwoodHillBilly

Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

BayouShine wrote:I usually run between 2000-2500W when everything is stabilized. I open the valve enough to get the collection rate I want.

The whole issue is that you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Get rid of that thermometer
I might disagree, in a coolant management column, one can adjust the output ABV by varying the amount of reflux and the power input. This is one of the situations when a thermometer is useful.

On the other hand, boiler temperature only gives you an indication of the potential ABV in the boiler, which I don't find useful.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I would drive it with enough power such that you can edge up to the limits of your RC and PC and understand where where and what those limits are. Then you will best be able to set your reflux coolant flow in full reflux mode in correlation with max power you can deliver without vapour escaping.

I haven't actually finished my CCVM build yet so I can't comment with too much detail but I'll be finished soon and be able to give more first hand notes.

With that in mind - I think you should run it with more power and you will then have more vapour in the area of the probe as you open that path up.

I do often listen to the output of the PC and I have a desire to get a stethoscope for listening to the column and boiler areas.

Cheers and Good Luck!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
RedwoodHillBilly

Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

jonnys_spirit wrote:I would drive it with enough power such that you can edge up to the limits of your RC and PC and understand where where and what those limits are. Then you will best be able to set your reflux coolant flow in full reflux mode in correlation with max power you can deliver without vapour escaping.

I haven't actually finished my CCVM build yet so I can't comment with too much detail but I'll be finished soon and be able to give more first hand notes.

With that in mind - I think you should run it with more power and you will then have more vapour in the area of the probe as you open that path up.

I do often listen to the output of the PC and I have a desire to get a stethoscope for listening to the column and boiler areas.

Cheers and Good Luck!
-j
Once you finish your CCVM and run it, try putting a thermometer on the output vapor path. Then you can report on you findings. Until then .....

"One good test is worth a thousand "expert" opinions"
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

RedwoodHillBilly wrote:
BayouShine wrote:I usually run between 2000-2500W when everything is stabilized. I open the valve enough to get the collection rate I want.

The whole issue is that you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Get rid of that thermometer
I might disagree, in a coolant management column, one can adjust the output ABV by varying the amount of reflux and the power input. This is one of the situations when a thermometer is useful.

On the other hand, boiler temperature only gives you an indication of the potential ABV in the boiler, which I don't find useful.
Yea that's true for a CM, but this is CCVM. Not quite the same configuration. We're not varying the coolant flow and to some extent, the power either. We're controlling takeoff speed and purity by raising the RC. It's a lot more like a pot still than a CM.
RedwoodHillBilly

Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

BayouShine wrote:
RedwoodHillBilly wrote:
BayouShine wrote:I usually run between 2000-2500W when everything is stabilized. I open the valve enough to get the collection rate I want.

The whole issue is that you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Get rid of that thermometer
I might disagree, in a coolant management column, one can adjust the output ABV by varying the amount of reflux and the power input. This is one of the situations when a thermometer is useful.

On the other hand, boiler temperature only gives you an indication of the potential ABV in the boiler, which I don't find useful.
Yea that's true for a CM, but this is CCVM. Not quite the same configuration. We're not varying the coolant flow and to some extent, the power either. We're controlling takeoff speed and purity by raising the RC. It's a lot more like a pot still than a CM.
Once you build and run one, let me know. I built one 2 yrs ago and have run it many times. It is still a CM system, but the RC is also a valve. When you have experience with with a CCVM, let us know how the output temp correlates with output ABV.

Look, I don't want to get into a pissing match. But, you are basing your responses based on theory, not on actual experience. When you have experience with this system, I'm more than willing to listen to your results.
Last edited by RedwoodHillBilly on Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

RHB,

How much heat are you applying once the column has been stabilised and also how much do you open the valve, what is your output rate / hrs ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

artooks wrote: Hi, I know that I do not need a thermometer, but I like to watch the progress so do you have an 2" CCVM still if so you said that you run it between 2000-2500 so how much do you open the valve once it has been stabilised ?
I'm looking for the video that'll make this all a lot clearer, but I'm having trouble finding it. Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_samKVI-ms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You're better off watching the sight glass rather than temp. Read up on fluidzed beds or aquatic environment. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52930

Once you reach this state, your still becomes very easy to handle. Balance the distillate on top of the packing and hold it there under full reflux. Once it's stable, you can open the gate and start collecting. If your distillate falls back into the packing, you're collecting too fast so slow down a bit. Your still will tell you how fast it wants to go. The amount you open the gate is on a sliding scale between power and takeoff speed. You can't go by "half open" and expect things to turn out right.
Last edited by BayouShine on Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

RedwoodHillBilly wrote: Once you build and run one, let me know. I built one 2 yrs ago and have run it many times. It is still a CM system, but the RC is also a valve. When you have experience with with a CCVM, let us know how the output temp correlates with output ABV.

Look, I don't want to get into a pissing match. But, you are basing your responses based on theory, not on actual experience. When you have experience with this system, I'm more than willing to listen to your results.
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=59420

I've been running this type of still for a while cuz. This isn't theory, I'm coming from experience here.

This is, in fact, a VM type still, not CM.
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