Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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distiller_dresden
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

I think it is just not rationally arguable at this point, with der wo, that an open ferment in a basically jungle/tropical climate, isn't going to develop an acetic infection at some point, yet they continue to get alcohol.

It is known fact that they have long ass open ferments in a tropical environment. The are also adding from the open 'muck' pits. I found this awesome article:
http://cocktailwonk.com/2016/03/days-of ... dient.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

From which:
"While we typically think of rum as made entirely from fermented molasses and yeast, here we learn that Jamaican rum is quite a different beast altogether (percentages are rounded):

30% molasses skimmings
40% stillage from prior runs
10% acetic acid (cane vinegar)
10% molasses
10% muck (aka “flavor”)"

This is from an older recipe that there was acetic at one point, and the journalist noted above earlier that the muck pit is rich in carboxylic acids, and that these pits have just been sitting and doing their festering thing forever. They are like a controlled cess pool with cane solids waste, dunder, lime, skimmings, and they do add cane-based acetic acid to the muck pits.

Later after the above older 1909 recipe she said, "the 1906 wash recipe from above generally lines up with what Vivian told us Hampden Estate uses. Vivian mentioned cane juice, water, dunder, and muck. He didn’t mention acid or vinegar, to the best of my notes and recollection. All the ingredients he listed are churned into a mixture and at the appropriate time (just prior to distillation) are added to the fermented molasses: 11 parts of diluted, fermented molasses to 7 parts of the aforementioned mixture."

But as there is acetic acid in the muck, that means there is still being added acetic acid to the mash as it's not like that cane vinegar is going anywhere.



There are so many other resources and articles linked in the above article, it seems like a great resource to go down this rabbit hole.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

distiller_dresden wrote:I think it is just not rationally arguable at this point, with der wo, that an open ferment in a basically jungle/tropical climate, isn't going to develop an acetic infection at some point, yet they continue to get alcohol.

It is known fact that they have long ass open ferments in a tropical environment.
Perhaps both has stopped?
All simple sugars consumed -> no further alcohol development.
No entrance of air -> no further vinegar.
And only other bacterias are still working (butyric/lactic)? Perhaps acetic bacterias aren't happy with the high SG of an all molly wash? Only speculating.
distiller_dresden wrote:But as there is acetic acid in the muck, that means there is still being added acetic acid to the mash as it's not like that cane vinegar is going anywhere.
I am not sure, if muck is rich of acetic acid. It would need sugar or alcohol to get acetic acid. And AFAIK they don't give something rich in sugar or alcohol into the muck pit.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

Well, the muck pits are described as such:
"In addition, we have some insight into exactly what makes up the muck:

Semi-solid materials settled at the bottom of the wash, pre-distillation.
Semi-solid materials at the bottom of the dunder, i.e. the wash after it’s distilled.
Cane trash–the field residue remaining after harvesting the cane stalk.
Lees – In the context of this document, lees is the residue at the bottom of the still retorts."

The cane trash has got to be high in sugar. Then the Hampden mash is described in general as:
"cane juice, water, dunder, and muck...churned into a mixture and at the appropriate time (just prior to distillation) are added to the fermented molasses: 11 parts of diluted, fermented molasses to 7 parts of the aforementioned mixture. The mixing occurs in pits in the ground and is driven by injected air bubbles"

As to your controlling the acetic production, and a cap, well I think that there is acetic vinegar, and here's how they control it with the outside pits. When it gets out of hand:
"So what of these stories about outdoor muck pits in the bare ground? I asked Vivian that exact question. His answer was that they do store a semi-solid version of the muck in the ground, as a form of long-term storage for the dormant bacteria. Distilleries commonly start and stop production. Left alone for long periods, the happy, flavor-causing acids in the muck pit will turn it into less desirable forms. By carefully adjusting the pH of the muck, it can be put into a semi-stable state, where it can be stored in an earthen pit."

Pic from the article literally looks like a grave; so six feet under is the cap preventing oxygen from furthering the acetic production, I'd guess, and keeping it where they want it. It's crazy that to us or even a total noob with zero knowledge this is utter chaos, we have a little more awareness what's going on, but they seem to have it down to an exact science and have full control over the process. Amazing stuff.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

distiller_dresden wrote:The cane trash has got to be high in sugar. This is the question. If there is for example so much sugar to reach something like 1% alcohol and then 1% acetic acid in the muck, you have after using 10% muck for your wash 0.1% acetic acid. Too low for a high ester Rum.

Then the Hampden mash is described in general as:
"cane juice, water, dunder, and muck...churned into a mixture and at the appropriate time (just prior to distillation) are added to the fermented molasses: 11 parts of diluted, fermented molasses to 7 parts of the aforementioned mixture." Here we have it. Cane juice of course is rich in sugar. But if it would turn into vinegar completely, it would ruin the wash. 7 parts vinegar to 11 parts alcohol is way too much vinegar. So for whatever reason the "aforementioned mixture" has to be low in sugar or something hinders the acetic bacterias.

Left alone for long periods, the happy, flavor-causing acids in the muck pit will turn it into less desirable forms. By carefully adjusting the pH of the muck... Yes. Over 6 and it gets moldy. Under 4.5 and many bacterias stop working and the pellicle sinks down. But acetic acid bacterias aren't sensible to acidic conditions.

Pic from the article literally looks like a grave; so six feet under is the cap preventing oxygen from furthering the acetic production, I'd guess, and keeping it where they want it. Because I don't think the muck is rich in sugar, the vinegar of the muck alone is only a small part of the story I think.
Hampden is only one example. Another is Worthy Park. They don't use dunder or muck or lees. Everything they do is a long open ferment and perhaps adding cane vinegar. The Hampden-method sounds a bit like it could work. The Worthy Park-method sounds more irritating, because we don't know how the development of vinegar is stopped at a certain point.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

I would love to visit their muck pit with a biologist and get a sample, then spin it out or however that works to identify every single bacteria in the pit. I bet there are billions of different bacteria in those pits. As for what they control, though, I bet they employ some really knowledgeable people who babysit the balance of those muck pits to keep everything where it needs to be, or change PH when it is necessary so they can solidify it enough to go bury it out back. That has got to be one of the most complex rum operations going anywhere.

Article mentions they have a 1200 PPM ester rum that isn't even drinkable that they sell to restaurants/food industry for flavoring food and things. I wonder what that is like; I bet the esters are like glue on the nose.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

distiller_dresden wrote:Article mentions they have a 1200 PPM ester rum that isn't even drinkable that they sell to restaurants/food industry for flavoring food and things. I wonder what that is like; I bet the esters are like glue on the nose.
Here about ester counts:
http://cocktailwonk.com/rum-marques" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Seems "1600" means the maximum they make. "gr/hlaa" means grains per 100 liter absolute alcohol.

But on the labels of all "Habitation Velier" bottles is stated the gr/laa. So per 1 liter absolut alcohol, not 100. For example the Hampden HLCF has 550gr/laa.

I am not 100% sure which one is false, but google with "gr/hlaa" has 17 results, "gr/laa" 1100 results. So I think gr/laa is true.

550gr = 36g according to an online calculator. So if gr/laa is true, it means 36g esters in 789g (1l) alcohol.
This means this Rum has per alcohol 80 times esters compared to an average beer. Or perhaps more impressive: In one bottle Hampden HLCF are esters like in 1000l average beer.

Edit: Probably wrong information. Probably gram per 100 liter absolute alcohol is true.
Last edited by der wo on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

Oh, shoot, I recollected incorrectly, you are right. From the article:

"Hampden blows that out of the water, making a rum with an ester count in the 1600 PPM range, essentially undrinkable and used primarily for food flavoring. I wrote about this rum, named “DOK,”"

And I think for her use of PPM she's saying parts per million. Earlier, "While all rums have esters, Jamaican rums are renowned for having very high levels of fruity esters, measured in the parts per million (PPM)."

So the other measure you mention, I wonder if they're interchangeable of if she got it wrong? She does say a Hampden Fire Overproof is over 500 PPM, is that the HLCF? Either way, that's a lot of esters.


Sorry I had stated that wrong previously, last thing we need is misinformation, I didn't intend that at all; I'm glad you caught that der wo!

So what of congeners? My favorite rum, and admitted immediately I am NOT well traveled or had many rums at all, is Ron Anejo Aniversario Pampero, in the leather bag. I drink it room temp, and you have to pry me away from it; it's quite bad actually when I get some. I've tried unnamed dark, rich rum a few times with banana and pineapple notes that I wish I could rediscover, but I was quite otherworldly inebriated at the time and partying with friends in Chicago over Halloween. That's a flavor memory I'm chasing in creating my own rums, trying to create something like the Pampero, and beyond into that memory.

To that end - do you think something like this would add anything, would the ginger (actual ginger is in there, in an inverted sugar syrup) add some congeners or develop some esters throughout a mash?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

This is my understanding of how acetic acid is incorporated into a distillery that uses dunder/muck.
Cane juice is mostly glucose, but it will ferment. The low abv wine is then added to open cisterns with the cane trash, which is not high in sugar but already contains the acetobacter. They used to use half filled oak barrels with lots of exposure to open air. Now its stainless steel vats. We can assume that this was/is done in isolation of any other process.

The developed acetic acid is then added to the dunder and skimmings and muck from the outside pits. This mixture would be highly acidic until adjusted with lime.
Putrefactive bacteria would be allowed to develop, then halted with aged Lees (which are highly acidic) or in modern distilleries, acids like sulfuric and phosphoric.

So what of the distilleries that do not use dunder? I'm inclined to believe what zapata alluded to, which is specific yeast and temperature combined with long fermentation to increase other attributes like amyl alcohol in the finished wash. That would be my best guess.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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The article I read mentioned both the use of lime, and lees, but nothing about sulfuric or phosphoric acids. There was a sense though that for as much as they were behind the scenes that there were some things kept up the sleeve, primarily the extremely 'outside' muck pits that needed to be balanced and were thus buried once set to a specific PH then basically put into a grave for a set amount of time.

On a different, but banana-related note, in a new thread I started for something unrelated to rum I came across a strain of yeast and posted this below. While the high temp of 75 wouldn't allow the traditional 'high temp' rum/molasses ferment, I thought this was interesting:
I read about a Wyeast strain that's interesting:
Wyeast 3638 Bavarian Wheat
A complex alternative to the standard German wheat strain profile. This strain produces apple, pear, and plum esters in addition to the dominant banana character. The esters are complemented nicely by clove and subtle vanilla phenolics. The balance can be manipulated towards ester production through increasing fermentation temperature, increasing the wort density, and decreasing the pitch rate. Over pitching can result in a near complete loss of banana character. Decreasing the ester level will allow a higher clove character to be perceived. Sulfur is commonly produced, but will dissipate with conditioning. This strain is very powdery and will remain in suspension for an extended amount of time following attenuation. This is true top cropping yeast and requires fermenter headspace of 33%.

Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: 70-76%
Temperature Range: 64-75F, 18-24C
Alcohol Tolerance: 10% ABV
**Might this also be a good 'banana rum' yeast even though it would be a rum fermented at the top temp of 75 for this yeast, that ester profile could be pushed, use blackstrap and maybe even several pounds of mashed overripe bananas to up the gravity/density of the mash, and a gallon or two more water to decrease the pitch rate on purpose...

I'm thinking specifically of:
half gallon high quality molasses, half gallon blackstrap molasses, 1 lbs lyle's black treacle, 2 lbs dark brown sugar, 5.5 gals water - calculator shows at 100% efficiency (all sugars) and 72% attenuation an end ABV of 9.51%... keeping temp at 74-75 that would be high temp, under pitch, high density wort, and meet all characteristics to encourage banana and the extreme ester production suggested, right?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

distiller_dresden,

Perhaps the unit grain or gran is unknown? At least in my country it is unknown. And of course you cannot have 1600 gramm esters in 1l alcohol. This clearly doesn't make sense. So somebody thought it has to be hlaa instead of laa. And another somebody thought it has to be ppm? AFAIK the 1600 range is not bottled and sold to consumers. It's only for flavoring other Rums or for other foods. The highest I know are in the 600 range. Perhaps the Hampden HLCF is the 1600 one, but diluted with normal ester Rum? So the heavy infections produce some undrinkable stuff (1600), which has to be diluted?

The Ron Rum is from Venezuela. I don't think there are dunder pits in Venezuela. And for this price you cannot get a high ester Rum. And barrel aged high ester Rum costs at least four times more.
It's one of the medium sweetned Rums. http://durhum.com/here-we-rum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow There is 16g/l added sugar in it. If they use sugar, they probably also use other things like vanillin and glycerine (This Rum 0.1g/l glycerine, vanillin wasn't measured).
I have stopped to add something to my spirits. A few years ago I experimented a bit, it wasn't successful. And the older I get the more I like dry spirits. It's not a religion for me not to add something. It's really that I don't like it. And adding sugar is related to add also other things. You cannot add sugar and not add whatever spices. Sugar alone is boring. You can see in the link, they tested four sugared Rums, all four have also artificial vanillin added. Yes, four is not a high number. There might be somewhere a sugared Rum without vanillin added.

There are articles about the use of sulphuric acid. For example google the "production of heavy Rums" from Arroyo.

Yes, yeast produces esters. But when you introduce bacterias, the yeast esters are negligible. No way to taste the yeast's esters in a 500gr/laa Rum. When making infected spirits, I use the cheapest yeast I can get, supermarket bakers yeast.
There is a thread here "interview about esters" of similar. Download the audio files and listen. He says in distilling yeast is choosen for practical reasons (temperature range for example). Tastewise it's a very minor factor compared to bacterial contamination and the yeasts for dstilling are very similar. And he speaks about Whiskey, not about high ester Rum. So even in distilling Whiskey yeast is not very important. No way simply to use a Hefeweizen yeast, push a bit the temperature e voila here is the high ester Rum.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

Schizosaccharomyces Pombe.
Is it used in Jamaican distilleries that don't use dunder/muck?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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SaltyStaves,

I think the high ester Rums have a tradition. And a tradition normally starts only if it's not 100% against economical reasons. I cannot imagine a 19th century carribean society, which pours wine in a trash cisterne. Or if wine gets into a trash cisterne or dunder pit, it has to be unusable wine, perhaps wine made from skimmings and shreddered trash is unusable?

Yes, the mistery with the dunder pits seems solvable. The mistery with the long open ferments, which don't turn completely into vinegar, less.

And the Rums without infected dunder and without long open ferments simply don't get a high ester Rum. No matter what yeast type or ferment temperature they use.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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der wo wrote:SaltyStaves,

I think the high ester Rums have a tradition. And a tradition normally starts only if it's not 100% against economical reasons. I cannot imagine a 19th century carribean society, which pours wine in a trash cisterne. Or if wine gets into a trash cisterne or dunder pit, it has to be unusable wine, perhaps wine made from skimmings and shreddered trash is unusable?
In this case, Wine = fermented cane juice. Very simple fermentation and probably only around 5% ABV. They wouldn't age or rest it, it would go immediately onto the cane trash.
They called it wine at the turn of the 20th century and since most of my reading material is from that period, I was just following the language. 'Wash' would be more appropriate today I guess.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Yes, I know that wine means cane wine here. But you can make granulated sugar from cane juice. Or wine or spirits or vinegar. And sell it. To sacrifice such precious things into a muck pit only to get a different flavor profile sounds strange to me for the 19th century. Everything what traditionally gets into a pit, has to be unusable for other purposes, I think.

In general distilling spirits was always something either to safe overproduction from getting mold/worthless (fruits) or something made from waste (marc, molasses).
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by thecroweater »

On acetic ferments in dunder I would suggest it would be a trick to get vinegar. The yeast would really struggle to produce anything much in such a pit and no alcohol no vinegar. I'm kind of interested if a lactic ferment prevents an acetic ferment as I have not heard of anyone getting both at the same time.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

Hey der wo thanks, that's good info, I didn't know that about Ron rum, I though it was just barrel aged several years, and had some added molasses. I did know it was Venezuelan, an old friend I used to know introduced me to it, he was from Venezuela.

The 1600 stuff is called 'DOK', the journalist had identified it and wrote about it in another article about a rum distributor in England that is unknown to consumers because it's for the food industry/commercial.

Do you think I'd get any banana flavors from that idea in a rum, without getting into infected dunders and such? This must be another break in opinions if not because while I know the temp is usually necessarily high for ester production, Otis is experimenting with ester producing yeasts in making the rum, but I'm getting you don't think any esters produced by the yeast are relevant and all esters will come from bacteria in infected dunder or the acids route.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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thecroweater wrote:I'm kind of interested if a lactic ferment prevents an acetic ferment as I have not heard of anyone getting both at the same time.
There is much information about lactic bacterias in grain mashes. Lactic bacterias eat starch. Also sugar, but yeast eats sugar faster. Also very complete converted grain mashes contain starch and the raw and malted grains contain much lactic bacterias only waiting for some water to start the buffet.
But molasses or cane juice doesn't contain starch. Here lactic bacterias wouldn't have an advantage over yeast or other bacterias, which aren't able to consume large starch molecules.
When you search for Rum esters, you find mainly acetic, butyric, propionic and formic esters. Not much about lactic ones. When you search for Whisk(e)y esters, you will find much about lactic and acetic, but nothing about butyric, propionic and formic.
But yes, perhaps lactic bacterias prevent acetic ferments or at least dominating ones. Not in Rum, but in Whisky. And perhaps in Rum butyric bacterias prevent dominating acetic ferments. Perhaps simply by the pellicle or perhaps it's more complicated.
Idea for a small experiment: A small simple Rum wash. Adding butyric bacterias (earth for example) after the yeast has slown down. Forcing a fast growth of a thick pellicle by pH management (target 5-5.5) and high temp. Distilling after a few months to find out how much alcohol is left.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

Hey der wo, I actually know of a small yeast producer where you can get a combo yeast/bacteria that is tailor made with butyric bacterias and tropical ester producing yeasts. They have several really interesting yeast strains and combo strains and I've looked over them, but as I'm a novice and a straight beginner when it comes to that... I've reached out to their biologist and founder to assist me in selecting some yeast strains for rum experimenting.

Anyway, let me know if anyone would like the name/address, they sell/ship to public, and also have a full selection of 'experimental' stuff as well that even has a 'disclaimer' to it all. Found them last night and it's really interesting stuff.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

distiller_dresden,

of course with adding overripe bananas to the wash you would get more banana flavor. And probably a high temp also helps. But high temp alone is not enough to reach a really high ester level. I think yeast's esters are only relevant in uninfected low ester Rums.
Also the famous really special Rum yeast Schizosaccharomyces Pombe is used more because of its high temperature and high osmotic pressure resistance than because of its flavor profile.
I don't agree always with what Otis does in his thread. But I am happy he does what he does.

I also could get bacteria and yeast mixtures from homebrewshops. It's interesting. But all I need for infections I also can buy in a supermarket (yeast, cheese, yoghurt, natural vinegar, potatoes) or even collect in nature (earth, perhaps ants for formic acid :mrgreen: ). May not be the same. But I don't want to experiment in this direction currently.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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der wo wrote:I don't agree always with what Otis does in his thread. But I am happy he does what he does.
+1 der wo. I don't agree with what I do half the time. ;-)

distiller_dresden. I'm just repeating here what I said at the beginning of my two "high ester" threads: I know what I am doing in those threads is overkill and much of it is likely not making a noticeable difference in my end product. I started those batches as learning experiments to pull together and try in one batch many of the things I had read and tried over several years that may produce a higher amount of esters. It's not normal and definitely not the best place for novices to start. I've done a fair amount of "regular" rums and whiskeys that are perfectly fine and I am simply playing with ways to enhance/change things up as I have fun playing along the way. I'm no expert; I'm just curious and have a fair amount of free time on my hands. :-) Otis
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

der wo wrote:Yes, I know that wine means cane wine here. But you can make granulated sugar from cane juice. Or wine or spirits or vinegar. And sell it. To sacrifice such precious things into a muck pit only to get a different flavor profile sounds strange to me for the 19th century.
An interesting paper on the topic -
https://www.bostonapothecary.com/lectur ... -rum-1906/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The author is very focused on economics and talks often about the value of high ester rum and even compares prices reached between high ester rums from different estates. So there was certainly a financial incentive to sacrifice some of the cane juice to make vinegar for this purpose.

Today, I'm not sure of what they would do. They may have liquids in the retorts that could do the same job without having to ferment anything. I wouldn't think the quality of the vinegar produced would matter.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

Thanks Salty, great link.
A few quotes:

The flavour of beer is very delicate and is produced by the yeast itself whereas I am of title opinion that the yeasts contribute but a small amount of the flavour of rum.

Of the total amount of ether in rum, acetic ether composes at least 95 per cent, or 95 parts out of every hundred are acetic ether. Of the remaining five parts by far the larger portion is made up of butyric and propionic ethers.
(Ether means ester here.)

Judging from the flavour imparted by various ethers in the pure state, acetic ether gives very little flavour. It must not, however, be assumed that this ether is on that account quite useless. On the contrary, it would appear to be an essential ingredient in a good rum. It seems to act in some way as a carrier for the other ethers. At any rate a rum without a fair amount of acetic ether is flat and lacks the sharpness which is required in good rums.

Butyric ether on the other hand has a good deal of flavour. It has a heavy, fruity smell which has been described as that of pine-apples. There can be little doubt but that this substance contributes a fair quota of the flavour of rum. Propionic ether is also present in rums, and as a flavour or smell similar to what a mixture of acetic and butyric ethers would produce. Of the other ethers little can be said. That they exist in rums there is no doubt, but they are only in traces, and it is impossible to say what is the effect of each one taken separately or for that matter all taken collectively.

The remaining bodies, Higher Alcohols, Furfurol, and Aldehydes are usually considered under the head of ‘fusel oil,’ and looked upon as noxious. They are only found in very small quantities in rum, and although they vary in amount in different rums, yet there is no evidence to show that the variation of these substances has any appreciable effect on the value of the rum.

Acetic acid must be produced in large quantities in the distilleries of this island but especially in those making flavoured rum. Indeed in them special processes have been evolved to produce this acid as well as others. The part of the process which is mostly concerned in the production of acetic acid is the fermentation of what is called rum cane juice. This juice is generally poor in sugar and what sugar there is, is mostly glucose which would not crystallize out even the juice. It is however, in a suitable state for being fermented. A weak alcoholic solution is formed. This liquor is thrown over cane trash and allowed to stand. The result is that the alcohol is turned into acetic acid. You will note how closely this process corresponds to that of making vinegar. Only in the case of vinegar making a freer access to air is given.

I do not claim more as the result of my investigations than that I have established the fact that the flavour of Jamaica rum is mainly produced by bacterial action and in a general way indicated the nature of the organisms at work.



The whole site is worth reading.

95% of the esters in heavy Jamaican Rum are acetic ones. So if we think only about lactic and butyric infections we are on a very different track. That's why I started this thread.
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distiller_dresden
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

Wow! So that, coupled with the passage from the journalist I'd found -

"cane juice, water, dunder, and muck...churned into a mixture and at the appropriate time (just prior to distillation) are added to the fermented molasses: 11 parts of diluted, fermented molasses to 7 parts of the aforementioned mixture. The mixing occurs in pits in the ground and is driven by injected air bubbles"

The time to add the acetic acid and infected dunder in your pot when you're ready to distill; this seems with the passage above and this quote here to be a certainty in producing more esters in rum similar to the funky, heavy Jamaican style. I wouldn't add water, but I think I'll be adding some of my infected dunder and some vinegar to my pot before I cook off my rum wash when I am back to rum in May, certainly.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

der wo wrote:The result is that the alcohol is turned into acetic acid. You will note how closely this process corresponds to that of making vinegar. Only in the case of vinegar making a freer access to air is given.
I have read this sentence several times in the past, but I've just realised that I have been reading it incorrectly.

He is saying that for traditional vinegar making, a lot more access to air is granted. Which means that for rum application, they must have been sealing or covering the barrels and limiting the access to air while the vinegar develops. I wonder why? What were they keeping in, or keeping out? Were they worried about other airborne contamination that could get ahead of the vinegar? Seems unlikely.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Tater »

SaltyStaves wrote:
der wo wrote:The result is that the alcohol is turned into acetic acid. You will note how closely this process corresponds to that of making vinegar. Only in the case of vinegar making a freer access to air is given.
I have read this sentence several times in the past, but I've just realised that I have been reading it incorrectly.

He is saying that for traditional vinegar making, a lot more access to air is granted. Which means that for rum application, they must have been sealing or covering the barrels and limiting the access to air while the vinegar develops. I wonder why? What were they keeping in, or keeping out? Were they worried about other airborne contamination that could get ahead of the vinegar? Seems unlikely.
Makes ya wonder if the pits are gassing off something that is shielding it from air .my rum has taking up to a month to ferment out little longer for some .Made from feed molasses boiled with water and sugar.never use dunder never has turned to vinegar.used bread yeast made from molasses. and distillers yeast .cant taste much difference.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by HDNB »

Tater wrote:
SaltyStaves wrote:
der wo wrote:The result is that the alcohol is turned into acetic acid. You will note how closely this process corresponds to that of making vinegar. Only in the case of vinegar making a freer access to air is given.
I have read this sentence several times in the past, but I've just realised that I have been reading it incorrectly.

He is saying that for traditional vinegar making, a lot more access to air is granted. Which means that for rum application, they must have been sealing or covering the barrels and limiting the access to air while the vinegar develops. I wonder why? What were they keeping in, or keeping out? Were they worried about other airborne contamination that could get ahead of the vinegar? Seems unlikely.
Makes ya wonder if the pits are gassing off something that is shielding it from air .my rum has taking up to a month to ferment out little longer for some .Made from feed molasses boiled with water and sugar.never use dunder never has turned to vinegar.used bread yeast made from molasses. and distillers yeast .cant taste much difference.
geez i thought it was me...i made a bunch of rum wash 3 weeks and 2 days ago...bad calc put me a bit higher than the intended 10% but it's still working off strong. one fermenter was all but finished at 1.013 ish so i'm cooking it now. open ferment, it was starting to grow something on top so i wanted to get it going. The other two are in a closed fermenter and going strong at 1.015, nice and clean on top.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by shadylane »

I'm confused and intoxicated as normal :lol:
Why do a long infected rum ferment ?
That doesn't sound efficient or repeatable
Couldn't adding dunder to the wash before distilling or low-wines accomplish the ester profile ?
Edited, changed the word cuts into low-wines
Last edited by shadylane on Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

Derwo, a grain is a unit of weight, 15.4 grains to a gram. Don't known if that is what was being referenced, but it is a thing. Only used for amunition these days so far as I've ever heard it.

http://Www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_(unit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by The Baker »

zapata wrote:Derwo, a grain is a unit of weight, 15.4 grains to a gram. Don't known if that is what was being referenced, but it is a thing. Only used for amunition these days so far as I've ever heard it.

http://Www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_(unit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)
Probably started with the use of actual cereal grains used as the weight on a scale?

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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

shadylane wrote:Couldn't adding dunder to the wash before distilling or cuts accomplish the ester profile ?
I think only if the dunder is rich in sugar or alcohol and then gets a vinegar infection you can get such an incredible high amount of acetate esters. My dunder is normally very low in sugar and alcohol.
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