Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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der wo
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

Thanks, I didn't find this link with the words I searched. And the other thousands I also didn't find...

Under the nutrition list there is a link with the source of those datas:
https://www.industrydocumentslibrary.uc ... d=jmfd0093" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Unfortunately not easy to read, but it says:
Other Carbohydrates: Gums, starch, pentosans, also traces of hex???, myol???, D-mannitol and ??? acids 2-5%

Seems that the 2-5% is mainly gums, secondly starch, and small amounts other things. Definetely it doesn't say "Most molasses has a minimum of 5% starch."

Whatever, it's off topic anyway. I could live with 5% starch in my molasses. Most important seem to be the acetic esters, second important the butyric esters (according to links I posted and according to what I smell).
I am surprised this thread goes so long and I don't know why it goes off topic so often, but I think I learn one little thing here every day.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

der wo wrote:I am surprised this thread goes so long
Now I know. It's simply my fault. I don't stop writing here. :lol:

I have made now a very small molasses wash for making vinegar.
Water and blackstrap for max 7%abv. A bit garden chalk and a bit liquid egg for nutrients (the amino acids perhaps rise the amount of higher alcohols) poured into two containers.
In one of them I added a bit dry bakers yeast and lively vinegar. The other container must catch the yeast and bacterias without help. No lid, only a tissue.
Now I hope something will happen in both containers...
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

So...I just made a banana bread bomb of a rum, and didn't really mean to! We'll see how it airs out, but from the minute the noncondensable gasses hit the air, the whole shop smelled like a banana bakery. Might get some knickers in a bunch, but I even TASTED the foreshots! I swear I've never had foreshots that smelled so good and I wanted a taste in case it disapated. It didnt, lasted well into hearts too :)

I can do every last detail if it still seems extraordinary after airing and cutting. It was kind of an impromptu thing, I wanted a fast and decent white rum in a hurry so nothing was really planned optimally, it was more like cooking with what ya got when you find it.

Blackstrap and sugar (about 1.5:1 by weight), bread yeast, fermented hot and fast, but mid run decided to pitch some C. butyricum and an emmental cheese slurry straight in the wash, pitched them at about 6-7%abv. No dunder, but gave it shine's heat to 130*F and sit overnight butter treatment, then ran a single through VM, tall column but kinda low reflux rate. Used a medium chain triglyceride oil for defoamer (~90% capric and capryllic acids, basically coconut oil minus the lauric acid) Probably pulled 90%+ the whole ride, but didn't even have a thermometer to look at, much less bother with a parrot :crazy:

I'll tell you one thing, that butter treatment works! Surely that's why it's all banana bread, but where'd all that banana come from? It's definitely concentrated in the first half of the run. Bio factors could be C. butyricum, Lactobacillus helveticus, Propionibacterium freudenreichii, and Streptococcus thermophilus. (I didnt pasteurize the molly, so something wild couldve ridden on it but I doubt it). Tbh I wasn't expecting much, I don't know all the cheese bugs all that well, but I had a really short window for the butyricum growth between sugar concentration and etoh concentration. I was just hoping to add a bit of complexity to this as a white rum without having to wait for a funk monster to grow up. There's some other notes in there, but to be honest right now its really hard to smell anything past the buttery banana bread.

And now that I typed all that up, I'm really wondering why I thought I was making a subdued well behaved and subtly complex drop? :wtf: I'm thinking it's gotta be one of the cheese microbes and/or the MCT oil.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

This is great; I want to reproduce this at some point. You should hit up my 'fruity rum' thread and type this up as a more formal 'recipe' or make a second post here since it's the banana thread. Make it more step and line by line amounts, since the paragraph is a little more hard to follow. I hope the flavor stays through airing for you. If it doesn't, DON'T lose hope. I put 10lbs of nana's in a batch of rum and nana mash in my thump, and had nana coming off the worm, it was like nanas and brown sugar. Then I aired it and it was all gone. But I oaked it a couple weeks and it was back. So if it does disappear it might just be hidin'!

Hey - does anyone know if introducing penicillin to a dunder pit would be beneficial or desired? I have an orange on my counter that I was gonna toss, but then I thought, hmmm, micro-bugs...

Also, I found a supplement that has:
Lactobacillus Sporogenes, Streptococcus Faecalis, Colstridium Butyricum, Bacillus Mesentericus Lactobacillus Salivarius & Lactobacillus Planatrum
All in one tablet - would that be a good one to pick up to drop in as zapata did? It has the C. Butyricum (butyric acid), L. Planatrum (lactic acid), B. Mesentericus is found in soil, S. Faecalis ferments glucose without gas production (?), L. Sporogenes is another lactic acid producer... So this a good one to pick up??
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

Well.. penicillin is a mold that produces antibiotics, but most of the bugs we want are bacteria. So I wouldn't see any use for it, sorry.

I saw a similar probiotic and didn't decide to use it. Not that I know it's no good, just that I didn't know much about most of those microbes, and a quick googling didn't really inspire me. You can get pure C butyricum on Amazon or eBay. Also know that just dropping tablets into the wash is probably not the best approach. It's part of the reason I didn't want to write a recipe. If I had time to think through this "recipe" I'd probably do it different :) I suspect I got more biological action from the cheese than the butyricum tablets.

E.g., C. Butyricum is harmed by both sugar over 6grams / 100 ml and abv over 8%. That's a very small goldilocks zone for most rum washes without preculturing the microbes or staggering the addition of fermentables. I did my best guess to pitch pretty close to the window for both at 6-7% abv and from memory about 6g total sugar / 100 ml. But for all I know the sugar limit is less of a concern than the alcohol and pitching earlier would have been better to give it more time to grow . I just dont know.
But of course you could try that probiotic. SOMETHING will happen...
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

zapata,
congratulations. How long did you ferment? And how long did you wait after introducing the bacterias?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

It was pretty fast, but not industrial fast.
OG was 1.107
14 hours and ~1.090 attempted a C. butyricum starter by pulling a few cups of the fermenting wash, adding crushed C.b tablets, and incubated beside the fermenter. Forgot to mention that above. At pitching it did smell a bit different from the wash, but hard to tell if it was just the difference in scale and co2. Obviously this is too much sugar stress per Arroyo.

36 hours in at 1.057 pitched slurry of fresh C.b tabs and cheese along with the starter jar. Sugar concentration and alcohol should have been hospitable at least briefly.

90 hours, 1.032 split the wash and started heat treatment of half of it, taking several hours to get up to 130*F. Pretty sure this kills yeast. Not sure about micros, if they weren't already killed by almost 10% alcohol. Arroyo puts C.b alcohol tolerance at 8%, haven't found published limits for the others.

106 hours from pitching yeast started fire in it kettle for the heat treated wash.

The other half of the wash is still in the fermenter (not heat treated) and I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do with it. It's obviously getting a longer ferment time. I had originally planned to give it a long ferment, like another 2 weeks while I culture infected backset for it. First batch was to be a "simple" white, 2nd a heavier aged. If I have time and motivation I can think of several tests I can do. Like distilling a small sample in the lab kit without the MCT oil and/or without the butter heat treatment to see if the banana is already in the wash, or if it came from one of those sources. TBD.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

A really good Swiss cheese is interchangeable with emmental correct? I am thinking of just picking up those tablets I found and experimenting away. I don't have anything to take gravity, and I figure out my potential ABV's using a calculator. I am a philistine. I do have an alcohol floater and glass tube testing thing, I'm not an animal (just don't recall the names of all these things).

What's the name of the gravity thing, are they simple to use, is there a 'range' of them, like is there one that you just put a drop onto and it is electronic and says, "1.06?"

Sounds like if I get the tabs, and if Swiss is equivalent cheese, the pitch time would ideally be around 30-36 hours.

ZAPATA- you never told me how you get your wash up to 130?? I have an aquarium heater that only goes up to 94F. I haven't found anything that goes up to 130, I think because it's cooking fish lol... I don't use or have any big glass jars, so I can't use any of those wrap around heaters with fancy electric controllers. What are you dong that with??
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

Presumably your still can get up to at least 130*, yeah?
:lol:
My boilers are electric so I just did it in there at a couple hundred watts on the controller with light intermittent stirring. Coulda used an electric heat stick if I wanted to do the whole batch at the same time. Hell, an incandescent bulb in a cooler would probably get up to 130 if you really couldn't come up with something better.
Emmental is a kind of Swiss cheese, but I have no idea if all swiss cheese uses the same bacteria. Everything onlujne specifically references Emmental, not just Swiss. I saw 2 Emmental cheeses, a pre sliced one did not list cultures on the ingredients but did list "enzymes". The solid block of imported cheese listed "cultures" and not enzymes, so I used that one. I actually bought both, and the solid "cultures" one definitely tasted better, so I wonder if "enzymes" is a cheaper/easier way to get the holes than propionibacteria?

The gravity thing you are thinking of is a refractometer. I don't use one. I use the floaty bulb thingies, aka hydrometers.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

Oh, shoot I already have a glass tube for measuring ABV of my spirits, I can get one of those cheap. I should do that. LOL I'll do that.

So I don't know what a solution would be, other than putting the wash in a pot and on the oven on low, seems silly to break out my propane burner. What is this stick heater thing, I'm not familiar? I won't take us off topic, I'll google 'stick heater'. But obviously once you do that, yeast is done, you're murdering your yeast like you said, 130F for hours. But I wonder if this would work in a scotch wash, that buttery flavor would be brilliant in a malty scotch I think?

Swiss I used was Jarslberg and the wheel was fresh, it was about 2ft in diameter and 10-12" tall (big bastard). Apparently the I was the first to get in on the new wheel - cut me out a 1lb slice. It's good eatin' too!
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

The beauty of the hobby is making what you like, but I think most would find this much butter an overwhelming off flavor in whiskey. Just took another round at prelim jar sniffing and abv testing, so the smell is fresh in my nose and I made a yuck face when I thought of it in whiskey. :) just think, people actually mix hot rum and butter and drink it, nobody does that with whisky!
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by butterpants »

Diacetyl is offensive in so much to my nose. Once I got trained and started looking for it in beer, finding it other places unexpectedly is usually unpleasant
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

Would this hydrometer suit my gravity measurement needs?
https://www.amazon.com/Brew-Tapper-Trip ... Hydrometer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And okay a big no to butter in scotch; I didn't realize it was a 'so big' butter flavor. Wow, now I'm kinda excited, because I have been wanting to make a hazelnut rum for a while and I think a hazelnut rum with this 'banana bread' butter treatment sounds freaking amazing.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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distiller_dresden wrote:Would this hydrometer suit my gravity measurement needs?
https://www.amazon.com/Brew-Tapper-Trip ... Hydrometer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I wouldn't buy that. The range of measurable densities is huge but the precision is scarce, as you see there is one line every two points of density.
I would buy a normal hydrometre with a 1-point scale. The range of densities should go from 0,990 to 1,1100 or not much above that.

Specific gravity and Brix are convertible without the need of having the conversion on the instrument. Coloured bands are also useless if you can read (which you presumably can, as you participate in fora).

The markings should be easily readable, which means:

Only 1 scale (specific gravity) repeated on various sides of the instruments and possibly all around (instead of many useless scales, you don't want to turn around the table ;) )

A different line lenght for every 0,005 value to make it easier to read (else, when you measure of mash of let's say 1,047 specific gravity, you have to count 7 small lines from above, that sometimes is not comfortable. Much better to count 2 short lines from the last longest line).

I have a hydrometre which is calibrated at the top of the meniscus, this is not really easy to read because the top of the meniscus is often very transparent and you need good sight to read the value, often through the transparent plastic of the cylinder, I would prefer a hydrometer calibrated at the bottom of the meniscus, which is much easier to read especially if the mash is dark.

The instrument must come with a case where to place the instrument after use, this is fragile stuff and you want a proper case.

Buy a 250ml borosilicate-glass cylinder, you will use it also for alcohol. If it's graduated, don't buy a cylinder graduated on the entire circumference because it would interfere with gravity reading.

You can also put the hydrometre directly in the fermenter but that's not the normal way to measure density, you will need a cylinder most of the times.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

My bananas are fading :(
It's still good, but becoming more of a weather's original caramel pastry thing and much less banana bread.

C'est la vie
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

Wether's original caramel pastry is NOT a bad thing at all in a rum! That said, I've had bananas that disappeared from 48 hours airing come back after aging on wood for a few weeks...

Mmmm Werther's caramel pastry rum...
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by butterpants »

zapata wrote:My bananas are fading :(
It's still good, but becoming more of a weather's original caramel pastry thing and much less banana bread.

C'est la vie
Dude that sounds amazing. I want some
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

der wo wrote:I have made now a very small molasses wash for making vinegar.
Water and blackstrap for max 7%abv. A bit garden chalk and a bit liquid egg for nutrients (the amino acids perhaps rise the amount of higher alcohols) poured into two containers.
In one of them I added a bit dry bakers yeast and lively vinegar. The other container must catch the yeast and bacterias without help. No lid, only a tissue.
Now I hope something will happen in both containers...
This experiment is continued in a new thread:
viewtopic.php?f=101&t=70788
If I will use this vinegar in my Rum, I will go back here probably.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

On the where does banana come from, and more specifically where does the acetate come from, I just learned my propionic bacterium of choice makes it in fairly high amounts. When Propionibacterium freudenreichii ferments lactate it makes 1 acetate for every 2 propionates.
3 C3H6O3 → 2 C2H5CO2 + C2H3O2 + CO2

My cheese infected dunder is producing CO2 bubbles, so hopefully this is what is happening.

By all means continue with the vinegar experiments, but with the right dunder microbes perhaps acetic acid bacteria are not needed at all? Proprionibacterium are widely cited in various aspects of rum production, though often not identified to species. But a 1:2 ratio of acetic acid to propionic acid is not insignificant.

As an explanation, this avoids the issue of Acetobacter eating alcohol, low/no alcohol in dunder for it to eat, risk of ruining washes, etc. It may also explain my initial banana bread aromas, though my wash was only lightly infected.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

Seems there are many ways to get acetic acid. Your way sounds a bit complicated. In Rum it's known they simply produce or buy vinegar and add it to the mash. The easiest way is to make alcohol with yeast and then acetic acid with aceobacter.
But for sure I agree that all the different bacterias like propionic ones all have different characteristics and produce different things in different ways, so they increase the complexity. And I also think that isoamyl acetate alone will smell very artificial (like the famous pineapple ester does).

For example Worthy Park distillery (where my banana Rum is produced) says, that to get high ester Rum you have to sacrifice some of the alcohol. Sounds like aceobacter for me:
http://cocktailwonk.com/2016/04/worthy- ... ntury.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The ABV of the high-ester mash is considerably lower than the 8.5 percent of the light rum. That is, what you gain in flavor, you give up in total ethanol. We heard the same explanation of esters vs. alcohol content at several other distilleries as well.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

A microbe known to play a part in rum that produces significant levels of acetate certainly isn't complicated. And alcohol is lost by anything that eats sugar too, not necessarily alcohol directly. Thats the cornerstone of many studies and attempts to increase productivity, eliminate the competitors, though often to detriment of flavor.

Regardless, for the places that actually use vinegar, acetate obviously comes from vinegar. And if the vinegar is "alive" then likely also the long aerobic tank filling period which I've read can take the better part if a day.

I want to make some molasses vinegar just to taste it myself. Might be a bit overwhelming made from blackstrap, but I bet fancy molasses vinegar is quite tasty. You know what, I'm on board too...moving to your vinegar thread..
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

But not every bacteria is so extreme picky like yeast. Only glucose, fructose, saccharose and maltose. So other bacterias don't reduce the alcohol amount always. For example a typical lacto infection of a grain mash: It jumps in when the yeast doesn't find something to eat anymore.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by OtisT »

While I did not buy the whole research paper, the abstract alone offers some good information RE: making banana esters.

If any of you work in the medical/scientific research field, you may be able to get this whole research paper for free by virtue of your employer. When I worked in the pharmaceutical industry I found I had access to all sorts of on-line medical and scientific data and research for free that normally is not available to the public. By simply accessing it from within my Company’s domain, I was allowed to download stuff that non-members needed to pay for.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6908002469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

“Enzymatic synthesis of banana flavour (isoamyl acetate) by Bacillus licheniformis S-86 esterase
New carboxylesterase from organic-solvent-tolerant Bacillus licheniformis S-86 strain was characterized. The enzyme named as type II esterase showed an optimal activity in the temperature range 60–65 °C and pH 8.0. The enzyme was moderatly thermostable (half-life of 1 h at 50 °C), but remarkable stable at extremely alkaline pH, retaining 100% of its activity at pH 10.0–11.0. Furthermore, the esterase showed high stability in detergents (86% residual activity in 10% SDS), and also 0.1% ionic and non-ionic detergents are inducers of enzyme activity. PMSF, a serine protease inhibitor, did not show any effect on the activity. The immobilized type II esterase was able to synthesize isoamyl acetate from isoamyl alcohol and p-nitrophenyl acetate (acyl donor) in n-hexane. The resulting ester yield (42.8%), obtained at a low temperature (28 °C) and with a very low amount of enzyme (4.6 × 10−5 mg ml−1), indicates a high potential for type II esterase in isoamyl acetate synthesis for production purpose”

I found the info on optimum PH for Bacillus licheniformis and the acyl donor they use to be interesting. Now I need to procure some Bacillus licheniformis. :-)

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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by The Baker »

Otis T said, 'Now I need to procure some Bacillus licheniformis.'

Gravestones??

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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

The Baker wrote:Otis T said, 'Now I need to procure some Bacillus licheniformis.'

Gravestones??

Geoff
"commonly found in the soil. It is found on bird feathers, especially "chest and back plumage, and most often in ground-dwelling birds"
"Bacillus licheniformis is cultured in order to obtain protease for use in biological laundry detergent. The bacterium is well adapted to grow in alkaline conditions, so the protease it produces can withstand high pH levels, making it ideal for this use - the other components of detergents create an alkaline pH. The protease has a pH optimum of between 9 and 10 and is added to laundry detergents in order to digest, and hence remove, dirt made of proteins."

Sounds like you may be able to just buy a small bottle of the right kind of some of that 'organic' all natural detergent, then take a swab and isolate it until the bacteria grows, then add it to a jar of sugar solution, and slowly bring the PH down since the ideal PH for the bacteria is high for our uses, Otis.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

OtisT wrote: The immobilized type II esterase was able to synthesize isoamyl acetate from isoamyl alcohol and p-nitrophenyl acetate (acyl donor) in n-hexane.
Also the omnipresent aceobacter is able to make isoamyl acetate when isoamyl alcohol and ethanol is present. Seems by far easier.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by zapata »

Lol, we keep going off the deep end, and derwo keeps bringing us back to earth.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

So I ordered some yeast for making an experimental batch of rum - wondering about your thoughts (group)? I got the Lallemand Abbaye Belgian-style ale yeast - qualities:
Fermentation Temp Range (°F) : 63-77
Apparent Attenuation Range (%) : High
Flocculation : Medium-High
Alcohol Tolerance : Up to 12% ABV

Pitching/Fermentation : Traditional styles brewed with this yeast include but are not limited to Belgian White, Belgian Blonde, Belgian Golden, Dubbel, Tripel, and Quad.

Notes : Abbaye Ale Yeast (Danstar) is an Ale yeast of Belgian origin. Selected for its ability to ferment Belgian style beers ranging from low to high alcohol, Abbaye Ale Yeast (Danstar) produces the spiciness and fruitiness typical of Belgian and Trappist style ales. When fermented at higher temperatures, typical flavors and aromas include tropical, spicy and banana. At lower temperatures Abbaye Ale Yeast (Danstar) produces darker fruit aromas and flavors of raisin, date and fig.
I found this on the Lalle website, specific to this yeast:
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Was planning on running this one right at the top of fermentation suggested temp, 75F and after the heat bloom subsides, touch it up to 76F. Then also doing the esters tricks, some vinegar in the wash for distilling, long slow heat up, maybe even put a banana or two into cheesecloth and suspend just over the wash in the pot when I seal it up to cook for that added punch of banana in there - but just one or two if I do that - and it's better than 'floating' the banana in the wash right?

Other suggestions, or thoughts about this? I thought this yeast with it's high banana esters profile would be interesting to use...
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der wo
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

I think you know my opinion: When playing with infections, the yeast selection is not important, at least for the taste. Maybe stressing the yeast will have a strong effect. So I would not necessarily follow the recommended maximum of 77 F.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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distiller_dresden
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

Oh, that/this rum won't have any infected dunder involved. My current rum, which I'm distilling this weekend, will be my 2nd 'infected dunder' involved batch. The one I mentioned in the post above I wasn't thinking about/planning on infected dunder. I was just going to include some vinegar to encourage what little boost of esters that bit of acid might encourage that may have formed from that yeast.

When going outside the recommended range of yeasts, will they produce more of the flavors they are 'known' (as in that chart) to produce, or is it all bets off and could they produce nasty flavors? I figure you of all people, der wo, have some knowledge because I've been poking around with HD search, reading about several things and seen a lot of your old experiments I've come across. The specialized malts was an interesting one!

Anyway, any idea what happens with yeasts outside the 'recommended' range and flavor/ester production?

EDIT-
Just found this
https://byo.com/article/fermenting-belgian-style-beers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Belgian yeasts typically produce more esters than British ale yeasts, and also some molecules associated with wheat yeasts. Logsdon adds, “Fusel alcohol raises perception of isoamyl acetate (banana). It isn’t detected as strongly when fusels are lower.” Higher original gravities, higher attenuation and inadequate aeration leads to more esters. (See the sidebar on page 45 for more.)

Increased fermentation temperature increases ethyl acetate levels, floral and fruity esters, and may be necessary for some of these yeasts to finish attenuating. Lower temperatures promote perception of phenols.
So maybe I'll run it hotter, and shoot for an final ABV of about 12% when I'm planning the rum out. Plus, pitch normal, but not aerate with my stick blender, just with my big old stainless spoon very well and as usual my few drops olive oil trick so even then the aeration shouldn't technically be necessary.
I read, I write, I still.
The must interstitial man no Earth.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
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