Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

You get more fusel alcohols. The good thing is, that the esters become more interesting ones. The bad thing is that those fusel alcohols itself aren't very yummy. This means you have to encourage esterification. Then you will have a bit less ugly fusels and you will have esters which cover the fusels. And perhaps you have to distill at higher abv and/or cut the tails earlier.
I am not sure, if yeast stress increases the given profile of the yeast. But it sounds likely.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

distiller_dresden wrote:Then also doing the esters tricks, some vinegar in the wash for distilling, long slow heat up, maybe even put a banana or two into cheesecloth and suspend just over the wash in the pot when I seal it up to cook for that added punch of banana in there - but just one or two if I do that - and it's better than 'floating' the banana in the wash right?
Forget all of this. Vinegar in your boiler will likely result in vinegar in your collection jar and you can't make rum gin by dangling some bananas in the vapour path or in the boiler. Its a waste of perfectly good fruit. If it were this easy, we'd all be doing it.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by HDNB »

i know it's not rum, but with a slight journey off topic (apologies for this)...you may find something about banana ester researching this stuff. I'm lucky enough to have a bottle, it's wonderful and has a distinct banana note.
https://jeffersonsbourbon.com/jefferson ... all-batch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

SaltyStaves wrote:Forget all of this. Vinegar in your boiler will likely result in vinegar in your collection jar
SaltyStaves,
you participated in many of the infections or high ester threads. That's why I wonder about this comment.
Adding vinegar to a Rum distillation is one of the tools to increase esters. It's done by a few distilleries. Perhaps not all distilleries use vinegar for their high ester Rums, but a few does for sure. Long Pond for example. Or read here:
http://cocktailwonk.com/2016/03/days-of ... dient.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
30% molasses skimmings
40% stillage from prior runs
10% acetic acid (cane vinegar)
10% molasses
10% muck (aka “flavor”)
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

der wo wrote:
SaltyStaves wrote:Forget all of this. Vinegar in your boiler will likely result in vinegar in your collection jar
SaltyStaves,
you participated in many of the infections or high ester threads. That's why I wonder about this comment.
I believe it is an important component of high ester rum. A critical one.

I don't believe it is useful to add it after fermentation has completed. It needs to be a foundation for other acids to build from. Left to nature, it is the first infection and after development, it must give way so that other putrefactive bacteria (like Clostridium) can develop. The vinegar smell vanishes completely, although the acetic acid is still very much in play and its presence allows for the development of bacteria that would not otherwise tolerate an aerobic environment.

If used as an adjunct after fermentation and before distillation, it has a high chance of coming over unchanged and being detected in the distillate (and in my limited experience, it can even be amplified and make the whole run smell and taste of vinegar).
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

Now I understand you. Interesting arguments. :thumbup:

It is true that an alcoholic ferment after a while will become an acetic one and then perhaps a butyric or perhaps a mold infection starts. But the butyric bacteria doesn't need the vinegar infection before. For example dunder doesn't contain acetic acid, but is easily butyric infected. Or drill a hole in a potato, fill it with soil and seal it in a jar. After a while you will notice the typical butyric acid smell when opening the jar.

Acetic acid comes over with distillation, same like butyric or lactic acid. So you have to promote esterification to reduce those acids in your distillate. With lactic and butyric acid this works very well. If it works with acetic acid, I will find out. I think it will work. I don't see a difference. But of course it needs practical experimenting.

I don't understand what you mean with clostridium doesn't tolerate an aerobic environment without acetic acid. Yeast and clostridium is anaerobic, acetic is aerobic, right? Do you mean at first acetic bacteria has to consume all the O²? But is so much O² in a fermented wash, but nothing in dunder?

I know, also my arguments are only theoretical ones. I had success with adding infected dunder to low wines, what means I had sucess with adding acids to low wines. So I think it will work too with acetic acid.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

It's kind of ludicrous actually to suggest that in adding a nominally small amount of vinegar to 5 gallons of 12% ABV molasses wash to drop the PH/raise acidity, that I'd be getting straight vinegar out of my distillation. That completely obliterates the science of distillation. I was going to add maybe a pint of vinegar, 16oz, to 640oz. That's 2.5% -- I don't even think it's 'unlikely', it's impossible that I'll end up distilling vinegar from my wash.

It is theoretically likely that the added acidity and a very slow heat up could cause the formation of esters.

And as to adding bananas in a cheesecloth or into the pot - via a 'fruit in the boiler' thread:
CatCrap wrote:I did add bananas in cheesecloth to the boiler when doing the spirit run. I got some very nice flavor carryover, and it was actually mostly in the hearts. If you opened a bottle of this, even the part i have aging on a small, once used in whiskey, SD American Oak domino, you would have no trouble picking out the banana flavor. It is absolutely clear and present, and quite nice. I would, however, say that it's a kind of "cooked" banana flavor. More roasty toasty, banana bread like banana flavor, obviously from cooking.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by WeegieDistiller »

der wo wrote:
SaltyStaves wrote:Forget all of this. Vinegar in your boiler will likely result in vinegar in your collection jar
SaltyStaves,
you participated in many of the infections or high ester threads. That's why I wonder about this comment.
Adding vinegar to a Rum distillation is one of the tools to increase esters. It's done by a few distilleries. Perhaps not all distilleries use vinegar for their high ester Rums, but a few does for sure. Long Pond for example. Or read here:
http://cocktailwonk.com/2016/03/days-of ... dient.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
30% molasses skimmings
40% stillage from prior runs
10% acetic acid (cane vinegar)
10% molasses
10% muck (aka “flavor”)
Just a quicky on the adding acid to the fermentation at the beginning.

What Ph range would be ideal to maintain since the acid will lower the level and bacteria prefer alkaline over acidic? And what do you prefer to use to raise and lower it with?

Cheers

W
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by distiller_dresden »

I like a starting PH of 5-5.5, and I use potassium bicarb to raise it (such as when using dunder to start a mash-in and I'm at 4.0). Many use oyster shells in the ferment to control PH drop over time.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

Arroyo analysed many Rums. The more esters it has, the more acids it has too. It's true, that acids come over by distillation. And it's true, that time esterifies those acids. An unaged raw Rum has something like 5 times more esters than acids. Those acids don't seem to spoil the Rum. At least in such an ester/acid ratio, because acids smell way less than esters.

PH 5.8 is the preferred acidity, if you want to promote bacterias.
I don't think that a "normal" vinegar addition causes a strong pH change. In such washes are too many buffers. But of course, if after the vinegar addition the pH is too low, you should correct it with lime. To lower the pH should not be necessary. But if, sulphuric acid would be the normal acid for this.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

der wo wrote: I don't understand what you mean with clostridium doesn't tolerate an aerobic environment without acetic acid. Yeast and clostridium is anaerobic, acetic is aerobic, right? Do you mean at first acetic bacteria has to consume all the O²? But is so much O² in a fermented wash, but nothing in dunder?
I can't recall the exact mechanism, but the acetic acid prepares the wash so that anaerobic bacteria can thrive, even though the entire environment from start to finish, is more or less an aerobic one.

The vinegar mother is consumed in the process, so vinegar always needs to be replenished in a distillery operation using muck, because the incoming fresh dunder/lees etc can't restart it.
So when the muck is being replenished, the 'Acid' (vinegar), is right there at the start of the cycle. Long before distillation.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

distiller_dresden wrote:It's kind of ludicrous actually to suggest that in adding a nominally small amount of vinegar to 5 gallons of 12% ABV molasses wash to drop the PH/raise acidity, that I'd be getting straight vinegar out of my distillation. That completely obliterates the science of distillation. I was going to add maybe a pint of vinegar, 16oz, to 640oz. That's 2.5% -- I don't even think it's 'unlikely', it's impossible that I'll end up distilling vinegar from my wash.
You seem to be under the impression that acetic acid's roll is one of a simple pH adjuster. I'm not sure where you got that idea. I don't think it will work as you think it will.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by WeegieDistiller »

der wo wrote:Arroyo analysed many Rums. The more esters it has, the more acids it has too. It's true, that acids come over by distillation. And it's true, that time esterifies those acids. An unaged raw Rum has something like 5 times more esters than acids. Those acids don't seem to spoil the Rum. At least in such an ester/acid ratio, because acids smell way less than esters.

PH 5.8 is the preferred acidity, if you want to promote bacterias.
I don't think that a "normal" vinegar addition causes a strong pH change. In such washes are too many buffers. But of course, if after the vinegar addition the pH is too low, you should correct it with lime. To lower the pH should not be necessary. But if, sulphuric acid would be the normal acid for this.
Thanks Der Wo.

I've tried this previously using approximately the same ratio from cocktail wonk website.
You could definitely smell a difference in the wash, it went from a light vinegar to a more earthy nose. But the yeast stalled as I hadn't maintained the ph level and it had dropped to around 3.8. I was using Bi-Carb to raise the Ph and it did help re-start the yeast but I think it takes too much Bi-Carb to raise the level a small amount and you can taste it, so I will give lime a try!

This was using the acetic acid I made from muscavado sugar and a wild yeast/bacteria culture from Barbados.

I also took a few swabs from Mount Gay fermentation tanks that they use for wild fermentation and using an agar plate to culture the beasties :)

I might be out of my league but won't hurt to try haha[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201806 ... d9cce2.jpg[/img][img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201806 ... f11764.jpg[/img][img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201806 ... 5053c7.jpg[/img][img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201806 ... afab9c.jpg[/img]
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

Salty,
It's not always easy to find out, if a distillery uses vinegar. Because it sounds a bit like cheating. Same like liquid enzymes in Bourbon distilleries, they won't tell you.
But scientific papers would mention it. And Arroyo doesn't mention it. He neither mentions muck pits nor vinegar. But Clostridium and butyric acid. His method is simply to introduce Clostridium after the fermentation is half done. There is no vinegar in his process and there is not enough time for the suite yeast-aceobacter-clostridium. Doesn't seem that vinegar is needed for clostridium.
Also this experiment, you can find in internet very often, produces butyric acid by clostridium without vinegar:
Drill a hole in a potato and fill it with soil. Close it in a jar and wait a few days. You will get butyric acid smell.
But for sure aceobcter hlps to make the wash free of O². Aceobacter consumes all the O². May help an anaerob organism. But actually clostridium seems to work under many different circumstances (For example the jar with the potato and the soil is defenitely not free of O²).
And I don't think they use living vinegar in the distilleries. Only then it would help to build a mother.


Weegie,
at least I am not able to see your pics. I think only tapatalk user are able to see them. It sounds interesting what you write. Perhaps you could upload the pics on hd?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by WeegieDistiller »

It may be that the file size is too large as they were taken using my mobile phone and it's camera. I will upload them to the site later when I have access to my computer.

I spoke to Richard Seale at Foursquare as well who told me they fill the 1st thumper with "high wines" which is the 1st tales and the 2nd with "low" wines which is the later tales. I think the cut off between high and low tales is around 40-50% alcohol mark.

W

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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

der wo wrote:Salty,
It's not always easy to find out, if a distillery uses vinegar. Because it sounds a bit like cheating. Same like liquid enzymes in Bourbon distilleries, they won't tell you.
I know of at least one Jamaican distillery that has muck/dunder pits and Acid tanks. The acid tanks = Vinegar.
But scientific papers would mention it. And Arroyo doesn't mention it. He neither mentions muck pits nor vinegar. But Clostridium and butyric acid. His method is simply to introduce Clostridium after the fermentation is half done. There is no vinegar in his process and there is not enough time for the suite yeast-aceobacter-clostridium. Doesn't seem that vinegar is needed for clostridium.
Long fermentation with Pombe? It would be perfectly normal for that yeast to endure acetobacter infection early on and continue after it had given way (something our bakers yeast doesn't do).
Also this experiment, you can find in internet very often, produces butyric acid by clostridium without vinegar:
Drill a hole in a potato and fill it with soil. Close it in a jar and wait a few days. You will get butyric acid smell.
That is exactly how I started mine (propionic starter too). When I took them to the outside pit, I was expecting them to die. They thrived.
Old old papers I have read, have suggested that those acids are easily cultivated and can be added in great quantity, but there was always a dissonance if there wasn't already a considerable amount of acetic ester to counterbalance it.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by der wo »

Weegie,
yes, this way or similar work all those double retort stills. The alcohol strengths vary from distillery to another. And of course cuts too.

Salty,

yes, I also know only one distillery using vinegar. But I know some scientific papers about this method. So it looks like it's not unique. But I don't now, if it is something special or common.

Yes, there are very long Rum ferments. But at least Arroyos method is a very fast one. He writes the fermentation is even accelerated when using Clostridium. Ther alcoholic fermentation is earlier more complete. An Arroyo heavy Rum ferment needs only 24-36h. 30-33°C for the schizosacch. yeast and then when introducing clostridium a bit under 30°C.

We should not forget, Arroyo was given the mission to help up the Rum industry of Puerto Rico. Mainly economically. He was idealistic about quality and he thought with Jamaican style high ester levels they could get a higher price for the Rum. No way he would spend a long time with uneconomic ideas like 4 weeks long ferments. Did he complete his mission? How does Rum from Puerto Rico taste today? Is Puerto Rico a famous Rum aera today? I don't think he was successful. Perhaps also because he died early. He died in 1949. His major studies are from 1942-1949. Or perhaps poorer countries are able to produce Rum cheaper? Or perhaps because he advocated the uneconomic batch distillation? Or perhaps because of Bacardi? Because after the Cuban revolution and the expropriation of Bacardi in 1956 their factories in Puerto Rico, Mexico and other areas grew larger? Whatever.
Arroyo didn't cover all known ideas about increasing esters. But from his elected methods we have very detailed informations. So on the one hand we can learn many details about a few aspects, on the other hand there are many other ways making high ester Rum.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

Has been a while since I read up on Arroyo. I thought he was advocating long fermentations. Guess I need a refresher.
I agree with all your sentiments.
Yes, there are indeed many other ways to get this done. I'm looking at H.H Cousins method to see if I can recover acids from my muck that already has too much lime in it.

I think that the cocktail wonk recipe list doesn't convey that there is an order to these things. Looking at the components and percentages, tells half the story. A cake recipe can tell you how much flour and how many eggs, but if the order they are mixed is wrong, its going to affect the outcome. I believe that to be the case with acetic acid. I've read it from more than one source too. I just need to find it again.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by WeegieDistiller »

Hey Salty, do you have any links on the H H Cousins material for a bit of light reading?

I agree with your cake theory for wonks recipe percentages. I reckon the skimmings are added to the wash as a source of wild yeast to start the fermentation with the vinegar and muck added later to start a bacterial fermentation.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

WeegieDistiller wrote:Hey Salty, do you have any links on the H H Cousins material for a bit of light reading?
viewtopic.php?f=101&t=70947

The actual 15 page booklet does not seem to be available online. Google says that The University of Berlin and Jamaican national library hold copies.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by WeegieDistiller »

Thanks for that salty.

I saw the cocktailwonk post on the ministry of rum Facebook page at the time but the acid concentration in the retort slipped past my radar.

Slightly confused as Richard Seale told me the high wines is the first tails and low wines is last tails where it states put a "strong rum" in the high wines retort. He didn't mention anything about heads or fores being re-used in the pots at any point but again his rum isn't a high ester fermentation as he prefers esterification through cask maturation.

I might enquire at the main library in Glasgow for the commission report. Online they have a lot of similar reports listed around the same time so will keep my fingers crossed :)

W
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by iwine »

stupid question but what are skimmings. wasn't in the glossary.
I just finished my first aged Dunder rum . my aged Dunder did not come from a pit, it was frozen for about 3 months then left garage for about 7 months through the summer . it was in an airtight container there was no funky mold on it. the only tasting that I have done so far was when I was stilling it. I'm doing my blending tonight . I'll let you know how it went .
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Bushman »

iwine wrote:stupid question but what are skimmings. wasn't in the glossary
Skimming is the foam that forms on the surface when the sugarcane juice is boiled
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by iwine »

Bushman wrote:
iwine wrote:stupid question but what are skimmings. wasn't in the glossary
Skimming is the foam that forms on the surface when the sugarcane juice is boiled
Thanks Bushman I was kind of suspecting that :thumbup:
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Corsaire »

An interesting read, for sure.

Unfortunately the statement on der wo's bottle threw everyone off.
The fermentation of their high ester rum takes 2-3 weeks, as mentioned in the beginning of this thread.

They take rat chewed cane thrash, and pour cane juice over that to produce a vinegar. This is their flavoring. This is what's fermented for three months. This gets added to the fermenting wash, but probably just before it gets loaded into the boiler.

They also use a yeast strain they found on their sugar cane for their higher ester recipes.

Worthy Park doesn't state they ferment for three months, the bottler did. They're not lying, but it's not true either.

Now I don't know what happens to the vinegar in its three months. Unfortunately I've let summer pass without playing with rum. Does anyone know what happens to a vinegar with cane thrash for substrate in it? Do other bacteria break down the vinegar into something else?

Maybe the wild yeast in the cane thrash makes a lot of isoamyl alcohol? This would probably be a bad thing in a normal ferment, but while the yeast munches on sugar and makes alcohol, the acetobacter will convert ethanol into acetic acid which gets combined with isoamyl alcohol? What say you smart people?
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by SaltyStaves »

Corsaire wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:44 pm Does anyone know what happens to a vinegar with cane thrash for substrate in it? Do other bacteria break down the vinegar into something else?
One that got away from me was infected by fruit flies. The smell is an unforgettable one and the whole thing had to be thrown out.
It needs to develop in the presence of oxygen, so I'll take care next time to have a fine screen to keep them (and their eggs) out.
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Corsaire »

Seems weird, if I remember correctly the pictures I saw of the vinegar fermenters were open air, so it seems fruit flies would have easy access.
I read in the cane molasses vinegar thread that only ethanol gets converted into vinegar. I wonder if this is true. Now I've got to read up on vinegar making :ebiggrin:
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I've yet to taste a rum that even remotely reminded me of bananas, for that reason this whole thread bamboozles me. Could some of the rum experts here point me in the direction of some rum that I might buy to see if I can experience the banana thing ? Maybe I just have weird taste buds. :oops:
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Corsaire »

Hey Bill, several of the Jamaican rums are known for their high esters, including banana smell.
The one that kicked this thread off is a bottling by Velier, a European independent bottler. The rum's made by the Worthy Park distillery.
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20201016_124430.jpg

I don't know how easy it will be for you to get in Australia. But Worthy Park releases its own bottlings as well, perhaps those are easier to find? Another famous producer is Hampden, and Long Pond has some seriously funky rums as well. Problem is they're all quite spendy. And I think even more so in your part of the world!

The Jamaican funk bombs are over the top. A big hit of headsy nailpolish remover that turns into all kinds of fruit. I find them interesting, but overpowering. I'd like to make some to use as essences to blend in more clean tasting rum.
Plantation's Xaymaca is a good blended Jamaican imo, funky fruity nose but not overpowering. As it's a bartender's favorite over here it might be your best bet.


20201016_124703.jpg
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Re: Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Thanks for the information and the photos Corsaire, Ive not noticed any of those brands in my local bottle shops over the years. I will snoop around a bit and see if can track at least one of them down to sample.
Have any of the Aussies here seen any of these for sale anywhere?
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