Recognizing Over Oaking

[zed255]

I realize this will of course be highly subjective, but am looking for some guidance on using toasted and / or charred white oak for aging or maturing spirits in glass. I have been through many of the existing threads and have seen contradictory opinions. I'm looking to avoid over-oaking, but don't want to cut something short if in a few months time it could be special either.

I purchased some naturally dried / seasoned white oak from a local specialty wood supplier. With this I cut some sticks some 5" long and about 3/4"x1". These were toasted for about 2 hours between 380F and 400F and then given a moderate char with a propane torch. These were dunked and rinsed with water. The vanilla and caramel smell off the wood was wonderful.

As a trial run I grabbed about a half gallon of neutral, diluted to 62% ABV, and based on some of my reading here dropped in 4 of my sticks. Because I was starting with neutral I also added a few raisins and a small piece of vanilla bean to add a little extra character. Within 2 weeks it had already gotten really quite a bit of colour and had a clear smell of wood, smoke and some subtle hints of vanilla and caramel. I did not expect this to show up so quick that I pulled two of the sticks out, thinking that I may have put way too much wood in. Now about a month in there is more of a spicy note appearing but still somewhat woody in character. Nose is subtle and taste is a little flat, but I knew that having started with neutral. Just looking for pointers on what criteria determines when to pull the wood if at all. Some seem to say pull it when oaked enough (subjective) while others say to just leave it on, 6 months to a year is oft suggested.

My question is this: When aging or maturing in glass using wood, when, if at all, do you remove the wood? The spirit will continue to evolve for some time as I understand it with or without the wood. What seems unappealing early on may well be delicious later, and this may all hinge on the timing of the wood. What are your criteria for 'enough oak'?

About 1 month old.

[Wild Bill]

I think 4 sticks was quite alot for 1/2 gallon but I am far from an expert so I am subscribed to thread to educate myself.

[fizzix]

About 100 in2 oak per gallon is the maximum from here.
You have 1/2 gallon, so 50 in2 maximum.

You have six sides per stick:
=(2 sides x 3/4" x 5") + (2 sides 1" x 5") + (2 ends x 3/4" x 1")
=7.5 in2 + 10 in2 + 1.5 in2 = 19 in2 per stick.

x 4 sticks = 76 in2 total.

So you are over by about 1-1/2 sticks.
Then taste test every two weeks to check progress.

[badflash]

My experience is that once it is in the glass with no oak, it no longer improves. I used oak chips you can get from wine supply houses.

[fizzix]

My experience is that once it is in the glass with no oak, it no longer improves. I used oak chips you can get from wine supply houses.

I'm with you, badflash. Once off the oak, "aging" ends.

[MichiganCornhusker]

In my experience, my whiskeys absolutely evolve in glass off oak.
One of my favorite whiskeys tasted rough and grainy in the bottle off oak at 1 year, 1-1/2 year, and then at the 2 year mark became something very special. I miss it!
I've had others that tasted "funky" in glass, off oak, and then became fruity and delicious.

I think "over oaking" has as more to do with how you prepare you oak than how long you leave it in.
I've had stuff that tastes too woody and/or acrid or charred after 6 months, and some that tasted great after 2 years on oak sticks in jars.

Same for quantity of oak, I've had some that didn't work will with one small stick in a jar and some that was great with 2 large sticks in the jar.
Just recently I shared some whiskey with some friends and their favorite was one that had been aging with 2 sticks, 1' x 1" x 5" in a quart jar for a year.

I'm not saying more is better, just that it depends. More isn't automatically bad.

My suggestion is to vary your oaking/aging as much as you can and find out what works for you.

[fizzix]

Would you say that's conditioning instead of aging though? Being off oak that is.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Would you say that's conditioning instead of aging though? Being off oak that is.

Well, aging is aging, day by day. I feel like I've been doing a lot of it lately.
I don't know what I'd call it, or whether it's the oak, or the years, or my prayers that make it better sometimes, but it definitely "changes".

[pfshine]

My experience is that once it is in the glass with no oak, it no longer improves. I used oak chips you can get from wine supply houses.

How much experience have you had? I thought that you haven't even distilled anything yet.

[badflash]

How much experience have you had? I thought that you haven't even distilled anything yet.

I was using cheap vodka I bought. You don't have to distil to oak and age. I've been flavoring vodka for over 10 years.

[HDNB]

Would you say that's conditioning instead of aging though? Being off oak that is.

Well, aging is aging, day by day. I feel like I've been doing a lot of it lately.
I don't know what I'd call it, or whether it's the oak, or the years, or my prayers that make it better sometimes, but it definitely "changes".

i gotta agree that aging continues. (flavouring perhaps ends?)

had some on wood that seemed out of sorts, i put two bottles in a window sill for two days (sealed) and left some in the dark. two days of sunshine made a big difference in the spirit....more time? diminishing return on change. i was reading something about speed aging reactor and the wood breaking down in sunshine at the time. seems to have some bearing.

I also sat down with a craft distiller recently who explained "bottle sickness" to me the other day...he says about 3 months after bottling the spirit does whatever it does with the air in the neck...before that bad, after that good kind of idea....i never heard of bottle sickness before, but he seemed to make out like it is common knowledge among pro distillers

[Bushman]

I also sat down with a craft distiller recently who explained "bottle sickness" to me the other day...he says about 3 months after bottling the spirit does whatever it does with the air in the neck...before that bad, after that good kind of idea....i never heard of bottle sickness before, but he seemed to make out like it is common knowledge among pro distillers

I also have never heard of this term but will see if I can research it. I have heard of bottle shock in the wine industry!

[Bushman]

Bottle sickness is another term for bottle shock.

Bottle shock” or “bottle sickness” are terms used to describe a temporary condition in a wine where its flavors are muted or disjointed. There are two main scenarios when bottle shock sets in: either right after bottling, or when wines (especially fragile older wines) are shaken in travel.

[badflash]

Sunlight can cause all sorts of chemical reactions, so I could see that happening. With beer, it certainly happens, but beer is alive, and will also spoil. Spirits won't spoil, but I can see it reacting to air in the bottle. When I flavored vodka with Oak I never noticed much of a change after I moved it off the oak. I went on a tour of a Scotch distillery long ago. They talked about on the oak and in the glass. The age they put on the bottle is the time it was on the oak. I've never seen anyone selling whiskey based on how long it has been in the bottle. With single malts the year it was made could make a difference, but that is the barley as there are distinct vintages with single malts.

[6 Row Joe]

How much experience have you had? I thought that you haven't even distilled anything yet.

I was using cheap vodka I bought. You don't have to distil to oak and age. I've been flavoring vodka for over 10 years.

I hate to admit it but I have taken a $13 bottle of Everclear, cut it to 75 proof with some distilled water and added a 1/4 cup of medium toast American white oak chips. After about a week the color is right and the sharp edges of the Everclear are muted. Good enough for drinking neat or straight out of a flask. I also tried it with cinnamon sticks and sugar. Not exactly like Fireball but a very nice product. I can't wait for a few runs with some flavor behind it.

[Antler24]

It definitely continues to change after the wood is removed. I've had whiskey I'd though I ruined after 9 months on oak. 3-4 months later I was adding more sticks to it.

I personally don't think over oaking is much of a concern if at all. My theory is the amount of oak used directly relates to the amount of time needed to mellow. I've read about a microdistiller that aged bourbon test batches for almost 3yrs in 5 gallon barrels with fantastic results. I've tried to contact him on the topic with no reply though...

[Saltbush Bill]

I have been through many of the existing threads and have seen contradictory opinions.

Contradictory opinions here ?....I never
Here is mine for what its worth ,4 sticks that size in 1/2 gal is way to much oak. 1 1/2 to 2 sticks 1/2 x 1/2 x 5 would be enough. The old rule of thumb is less oak for longer ends in a better result.

[zed255]

I believe I caught this early enough to have halved my oak at the approximately 2 week mark and I might be able to pull another stick for the longer haul. My original question still remains:

What are the subjective qualities that folks are using to say 'Whoa, gotta pull the oak!"? Conversely, what are the things that might be unappealing early on that would typically make you let it ride longer and mellow out on its own?

Looking for descriptors or adjectives of the experience on the nose and palate.

[aircarbonarc]

I started blending my over oaked spirit with some unaged spirit and it really was actually amazing. Try it, you can sit a bunch of oak for 2 years and make a hard spirit soft and nice.

[bluefish_dist]

I would describe over oaking as the oak/wood flavor becoming predominant and masking the spirit. Not enough time, spirit is rough or the oak flavor is too light.

I have added fresh spirit to counter over oaking and then let it sit for a week or two. Really can do wonders.

[6 Row Joe]

I believe I caught this early enough to have halved my oak at the approximately 2 week mark and I might be able to pull another stick for the longer haul. My original question still remains:

What are the subjective qualities that folks are using to say 'Whoa, gotta pull the oak!"? Conversely, what are the things that might be unappealing early on that would typically make you let it ride longer and mellow out on its own?

Looking for descriptors or adjectives of the experience on the nose and palate.

I have had good luck with color and smooth flavor. Until you get comfortable with it, try the infusion with pints. Add the same amount to all and sample after the first week. It should take a few weeks to get where you want to be. I purposely let the chips soak longer in a pint or two to see what happened. It just got too woody tasting for me. There were no subtle tones of oak, vanilla and the like but just a coarse taste of charred oak.

[The Baker]

Bottle sickness is another term for bottle shock.

Bottle shock” or “bottle sickness” are terms used to describe a temporary condition in a wine where its flavors are muted or disjointed. There are two main scenarios when bottle shock sets in: either right after bottling, or when wines (especially fragile older wines) are shaken in travel.

So it seems that there is something in that old saying, that a wine does (or does not) travel well. !!

Geoff

[Saltbush Bill]

I cant believe there are people here saying " a few weeks and a few months"..Sorry but oaking and aging doesn't work that way in my opinion.
If you want fast you might as well use Fullys microwave method.

[Copperhead road]

I can believe there are people here saying " a few weeks and a few months"..Sorry but oaking and aging doesn't work that way in my opinion.
.

spot on Salty....
I think 12months minimum before to good flavours start raising there heads, time is your friend
I also think that good quality Oak, be it a barrel or dominos is everything.....

[6 Row Joe]

I found a link I read a while back. I think surface area has a lot to do with the alcohol mellowing and picking up the flavors. From what I have read, large quantities/big barrels take much longer to age as well as the oak and the toast used. I need to try half as many chips and let it sit for twice as long. There might be a difference in the outcome. https://www.deepsouthbarrels.com/page/d ... or-science" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I am still reading, learning,and experimenting. I will probably never do the same thing twice. (Unless it really works well of course.)

[vqstatesman]

I can believe there are people here saying " a few weeks and a few months"..Sorry but oaking and aging doesn't work that way in my opinion.
.

spot on Salty....
I think 12months minimum before to good flavours start raising there heads, time is your friend
I also think that good quality Oak, be it a barrel or dominos is everything.....

Exactly my sentiment also. 12 months onward is great for me. Anything less just doesn't have the complexity, rounded profile or mouthfeel.

On the topic of overoaking... I have been there and done that when using french toasted, previously always used charred american. I found the toasted french needed much less dominos than I was used to. Diluted with white dog, gave it a few months and it resolved the overoaked issue.

[Saltbush Bill]

much less dominos

vq I get the feeling a lot of folk around here are yet to discover Dominos as we know them.
Ive experimented with a pretty wide range of them and other oaks ...in my opinion they beat home done sticks hands down., though home toasted /charred do have a place and do a fine job of oaking.
All of the different types of Domino , American, French, Medium Toast , Heavy Toast all have uses once you play around with them a bit and learn what you like.

12 months onward is great for me. Anything less just doesn't have the complexity, rounded profile or mouthfeel.

Seems to me that the longer you age and oak the less you like what you made when you first started out....long aging becomes more important as you wander down the distilling path.

[vg30e]

Hello,

I have been using sticks in the 3/4 x 3/4 x1 at around qty 2 per 1.75 (call it a half gallon). It took a few months as the tanins get softer over time. When I got started, I just waited for the sticks to settle to the bottom, but after 2-3 months I think things got softer and less tannic. I think if you are using 4 sticks that are larger, you might get stronger results than I did, but if you like the taste, bottle some aside and mark the results.

It does get stronger over time if you leave the wood in though, I ended up using some of the last little bit as a blend from my half gallon jar.

[HDNB]

one of the most complex and young whiskies i've made was 100% rye and then took a pile of oak, lit it up to a full on fire and doused it, putting all the wood in...some was burned right through.

the spirit at 6 months had an initial smoke note followed by wood sugars, coffee, toffee, caramel and vanilla. it finished with a nice black pepper on the retrohale as the heat from the alcohol built from the belly out.

after sitting 6 months in glass, it has rounded off the corners and become smoother and more sippable. the smoke is still very much there, but less acrid...not that it was bad at the start, its like a sweet smoke now. time has put out the fire.

i left a couple litres just covering all the wood chunks i the bottom of the pail. it made a blending syrup. so overoaked now after almost 2 years it's indescribable on it's own (maybe rail road tie?) but as a blender, an oz/gallon sets up new white dog in the right direction for short aging. six months later on a normal amount of wood it's pretty darn complex and downright tasty.

[badflash]

You have to realize that everyone can't taste or sense the nuances that some of you guys can. It is like people that can appreciate high end audio, or fine art. My sense of smell is shot and my taste is borderline. You also have to appreciate that flavor and smell are not the same from person to person. Two examples. Bitterness, they make bitter test strips to educate beer tasters on bitterness. I could barely detect it, some others were nearly puking. In pork there is something called Boar Taint. It is caused by the male hormone. Some cultures find this appetizing. Some find it smells like very strong cat pee. I can't smell it at all.

Bottom line, if you oak for 2 months and it gets good color and some good oak flavor, many people will think it is just fine, maybe 5% will have a pallet or education to tell the difference between 2 months and a year.