Shady's Sugar Shine

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Stonecutter
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Stonecutter »

Has anyone had a vinegar smell after letting this ferment sit for a couple weeks after it’s finished? I’ve done this recipe twice now and both times I let it sit for 2-3 weeks after it’s done fermenting and I’ve had a faint smell of vinegar when racking into the boiler. I’ve never had such a smell come along with my AG’s. I’m not familiar with sugar washes at all and so I’m not really sure if it’s just a smell that comes along with this recipe or I’m not washing my oyster shells enough or that maybe I’ve got an infection somewhere.
The smell is not present after the distillation process.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by shadylane »

Did you remove the shell after the wash was done fermenting?
If you leave the shells in too long the wash pH will rise high enough for bacteria to get started.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

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Damn, I left them in there not wanting to introduce bacteria.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Stonecutter »

First time was for a sac run so I didn’t bother about it.
Honestly, I thought it was just residual phantom mental shit from the vinegar run :?:
Now that I’ve had a second infection of that bacterial colony I think I’ll implement a heightened sanitation protocol before the next go ‘round
Last edited by Stonecutter on Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by OtisT »

Hi Stonecutter.

I’m sitting on a SSS ferment right now that is almost 3 weeks old, though I no longer have shells in it. No vinegar smell at all. I can’t actually recall any previous batch of SSS that has developed a vinegar smell. I would guess it’s not characteristic the recipe.

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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Stonecutter »

Thank you OtisT. It’s definitely got an uncanny vinegar smell. Out of 20 gallons I got a yield of about a half gallon of 93% from a plated plated column.
It seemed pretty low but I was going to wait to get a couple more SSS ferments AND flute runs under my belt before making any judgments. But I’ll ask now, do you think that the acitobacter could have oxidized much of my ethanol? IMO the smell was definitely present but not overpowering.

Edit-I’ve already prooofed a portion down to 40% and still no vinegar smell. :think:
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Stonecutter »

Happy to report that after this third try, having removed my shells once fermentation was “finished” and then letting it settle for a week, the vinegar smell was non existent. Thanks for your help guys :thumbup:
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Hebden »

shadylane wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:13 pm This is a simple, tried and true recipe for sugar shine.
It works for potstill runs and even better for making a neutral with a column.
I use cheap bakers yeast. As in $5 for 2 pounds from Sam's Club

Rule #1 don't stress the yeast
Shady, this is going to be my very first wash (very first everything actually) so forgive the basic questions please:)

Is this bakers yeast a dried product before your stove top mix?
Is it safe to add all the sugar to my fermenter "almost full" of hot water before adding the yeast mix?

I note you kept saying "don't stress the yeast" and so I googled yeast temperature tolerances. What I found was that "any" yeast begins to die off at 120F and will all be dead at 140F.
So at stove top yeast hydration section, after water is boiled, should I be waiting until water is below 140F/120F in order to not stress the yeast?
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by shadylane »

Hebden wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:17 am

Is this bakers yeast a dried product before your stove top mix?
Is it safe to add all the sugar to my fermenter "almost full" of hot water before adding the yeast mix?
Bakers is dry until it's mixed with water.
Half the bakers yeast is boiled for nutrients. The other half is used to do the fermenting.
When the gallon of almost boiling hot water with the dead yeast is mixed into 19ish gallons of tap water the temp will be low enough to pitch the yeast.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Hebden »

Brilliant thanks Shady :D
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by bcook608 »

I'll be starting my first batch of this on Thursday. I'll probably be doing about 40 gallons of wash since I'll be running this through a pot still.

After reading the entire thread, I've decided on the following:

Recipe:
60lbs of sugar in 39 gallons of lukewarm water
1 cup boiled yeast with Fermax nutrient measured per instruction
16 crushed B Complex vitimins
2-3 cups of oyster grit

Procedure:
- PH correct my starting water to around 5 or a little higher using citric acid (I agree with the opinion that a smaller PH swing will result in happier yeasties)
- Dissolve sugar in 100-120*f water using a drill and mixer to oxygenate
- Boil yeast and Fermax and add to fermenter stir to lower temp
- Once temp drops to between 85-90*f, pitch 1 cup bakers yeast
- Add oyster grit in mesh bag suspended in the wash
- Maintain temp with 300w submersible fish tank heater centered in the barrel and held just above the bottom (my only heating option for this size of ferment)

Did I miss anything?
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by bcook608 »

I'm also going to pot still this at least 2x. Might do 2 stripping runs then a spirit or do you guys think that's overkill?
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by NZChris »

I ferment enough for at least three strips, usually four, then do one spirit run, taking a narrow heart cut for making OEG style gins.

Feints from that get cleaned up through my Bokakob and are very neutral. When I didn't have a Bokakob, I would save the feints until I had enough to re-run them, sometimes for years.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

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NZChris wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:45 am I ferment enough for at least three strips, usually four, then do one spirit run, taking a narrow heart cut for making OEG style gins.

Feints from that get cleaned up through my Bokakob and are very neutral. When I didn't have a Bokakob, I would save the feints until I had enough to re-run them, sometimes for years.
I have 2 boilers, a 26 gallon and a 5 gallon. I was thinking about stripping with the large one at 20 gallons, then maybe re-diluting with fresh water back down to 20% or so, then stripping again, THEN doing a spirit run. My thought process being that the fresh water will help dilute any off flavors that may have made it through the ferment, although I will try my best to follow rule #1 the whole way.

Do you think there would be any value in doing it that way? Or should I just strip with the large boiler once, then use the smaller boiler to do the spirit runs? The downfall of that being added time, but I KNOW I won't run into issues with the element running dry.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by NZChris »

I've never felt a need to go to that extreme. You go first.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by bcook608 »

I'll have to strip in 2 batches anyway. Maybe I'll do one strip on one, then 2 on the other and see if there is any noticeable difference in finished product or keeper volume.

I guess in the end, it all depends on what the initial low wines come out like. If they're already relatively neutral, then I won't bother.

This is actually going to be my first sugar wash so I don't know what to expect flavor wise. All of my washes and mashes have been either AG or UJSSM so this is something new.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by bunny »

bcook608 wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:50 am I'll have to strip in 2 batches anyway. Maybe I'll do one strip on one, then 2 on the other and see if there is any noticeable difference in finished product or keeper volume.

I guess in the end, it all depends on what the initial low wines come out like. If they're already relatively neutral, then I won't bother.

This is actually going to be my first sugar wash so I don't know what to expect flavor wise. All of my washes and mashes have been either AG or UJSSM so this is something new.
Hi!
I only make neutral, so I can afford to try a lot of things. Do not make ANY cuts on your strips.
When stripping I don't go by what the low wines taste like, but by the smell of what's left in the boiler.
A good sniff will tell you if it's foul. (and it will be)
For the second time through the stripper dilute back to the original volume and strip again as hard and fast as your equipment will allow.
Sniff again. It will be much better than after the first strip.
Repeat the above stripping until the boiler smell is faint.
For me, three times through the stripper works out fine for my recipe and process before my LM spirit run.
I shut down my strips at 208*f every time leaving a little tails behind each time.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by bcook608 »

bunny wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:58 am
bcook608 wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:50 am I'll have to strip in 2 batches anyway. Maybe I'll do one strip on one, then 2 on the other and see if there is any noticeable difference in finished product or keeper volume.

I guess in the end, it all depends on what the initial low wines come out like. If they're already relatively neutral, then I won't bother.

This is actually going to be my first sugar wash so I don't know what to expect flavor wise. All of my washes and mashes have been either AG or UJSSM so this is something new.
Hi!
I only make neutral, so I can afford to try a lot of things. Do not make ANY cuts on your strips.
When stripping I don't go by what the low wines taste like, but by the smell of what's left in the boiler.
A good sniff will tell you if it's foul. (and it will be)
For the second time through the stripper dilute back to the original volume and strip again as hard and fast as your equipment will allow.
Sniff again. It will be much better than after the first strip.
Repeat the above stripping until the boiler smell is faint.
For me, three times through the stripper works out fine for my recipe and process before my LM spirit run.
I shut down my strips at 208*f every time leaving a little tails behind each time.
Awesome! Thanks!
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by shadylane »

bcook608 wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:30 am
I have 2 boilers, a 26 gallon and a 5 gallon. I was thinking about stripping with the large one at 20 gallons, then maybe re-diluting with fresh water back down to 20% or so, then stripping again, THEN doing a spirit run. My thought process being that the fresh water will help dilute any off flavors that may have made it through the ferment,

That's what I'd recommend. :thumbup:
Every time it's diluted and redistilled more of the tails get left in the boiler to be drained.
It's wasteful of time and energy, but it makes for a cleaner sugar shine.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by bcook608 »

shadylane wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:08 pm
bcook608 wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:30 am
I have 2 boilers, a 26 gallon and a 5 gallon. I was thinking about stripping with the large one at 20 gallons, then maybe re-diluting with fresh water back down to 20% or so, then stripping again, THEN doing a spirit run. My thought process being that the fresh water will help dilute any off flavors that may have made it through the ferment,

That's what I'd recommend. :thumbup:
Every time it's diluted and redistilled more of the tails get left in the boiler to be drained.
It's wasteful of time and energy, but it makes for a cleaner sugar shine.
Thanks for the confirmation AND the recipe! I'll probably be doing this process with all of my sugar heads and other washes. Seems to be a nice, foolproof way to get a good ferment regardless of what's in the wash/mash.

Has anyone done any taste testing of the difference between the PH balanced batch and the one left to fall naturally? I'm thinking the slower fall and less of a fall will make for happier and healthier yeast. Going to be throwing it together tomorrow
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Ndb »

Ok. I have put down shaday's recipe and the ferment has stalled checked the ph and i assume it has crashed. So i added eggshells should have done this to start im at day 5 started at SG 1070 down to 1030. My question is how long till it kicks back off and next time should i invert the sugar? All steps were followed except the ph buffer
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by shadylane »

The wash probably isn't stalled, the yeast is just pissed off about the pH.
It's too late for egg shells, oyster shells. Calcium carbonate is good for moderating the pH but not strong enough of an alkali to significantly raise the pH.

How big is the wash?
What kinda water do you have?
Here's a hint about guessing how hard your water is.
Look inside the water tank on the toilet and look at the water stains on the porcelain. :ewink:
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by shadylane »

Ndb wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:33 pm
My question is how long till it kicks back off and next time should i invert the sugar?
Can't answer about time.

But I don't think inverting sugar helps.
I've tried inverting and also using gluco enzymes to convert the sucrose.
The yeast didn't seem to notice all that hard work. :oops:
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

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Ndb wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:33 pm Ok. I have put down shaday's recipe and the ferment has stalled checked the ph and i assume it has crashed. So i added eggshells should have done this to start im at day 5 started at SG 1070 down to 1030. My question is how long till it kicks back off and next time should i invert the sugar? All steps were followed except the ph buffer
If you have gone to the trouble of checking the pH, don't keep it a secret, post it so that we all know what it is.

Have you been keeping the temperature in the middle of your chosen yeast's happy place?
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Ndb »

NZChris wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:29 pm
Ndb wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:33 pm Ok. I have put down shaday's recipe and the ferment has stalled checked the ph and i assume it has crashed. So i added eggshells should have done this to start im at day 5 started at SG 1070 down to 1030. My question is how long till it kicks back off and next time should i invert the sugar? All steps were followed except the ph buffer
If you have gone to the trouble of checking the pH, don't keep it a secret, post it so that we all know what it is.

Have you been keeping the temperature in the middle of your chosen yeast's happy place?
Ok ph of water started at 7.5 i took it down to 4.5 with citric acid temp has been at 85f.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Ndb »

shadylane wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:39 pm The wash probably isn't stalled, the yeast is just pissed off about the pH.
It's too late for egg shells, oyster shells. Calcium carbonate is good for moderating the pH but not strong enough of an alkali to significantly raise the pH.

How big is the wash?
What kinda water do you have?
Here's a hint about guessing how hard your water is.
Look inside the water tank on the toilet and look at the water stains on the porcelain. :ewink:
The wash is 6 gallons(25L)
With 9 pound of sugar (4kg)
1/2 cup of boiled yeast bakers
1/2 cup of pitched yeast bakers
3 multi vita
Tsp of dap
Citric acid to bring down ph from 7.5 to 4.5
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by NZChris »

Ndb wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:34 pm Ok ph of water started at 7.5 i took it down to 4.5 with citric acid temp has been at 85f.
Doing that is a pretty good way of getting yourself a pH stall. What is the pH now?

Slaked lime is probably your best option for raising the pH, but I'm not going to give you any guarantee that it will restart. PH stalls can be a bitch to restart sometimes, so are best avoided.
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Ndb »

NZChris wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:02 am
Ndb wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:34 pm Ok ph of water started at 7.5 i took it down to 4.5 with citric acid temp has been at 85f.
Doing that is a pretty good way of getting yourself a pH stall. What is the pH now?

Slaked lime is probably your best option for raising the pH, but I'm not going to give you any guarantee that it will restart. PH stalls can be a bitch to restart sometimes, so are best avoided.
So what ahould be my starting ph then
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Ndb »

Ndb wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:10 am
NZChris wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:02 am
Ndb wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:34 pm Ok ph of water started at 7.5 i took it down to 4.5 with citric acid temp has been at 85f.
Doing that is a pretty good way of getting yourself a pH stall. What is the pH now?

Slaked lime is probably your best option for raising the pH, but I'm not going to give you any guarantee that it will restart. PH stalls can be a bitch to restart sometimes, so are best avoided.
So what ahould be my starting ph then
I have gypsum or chalk amy recommendations for which and how much
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Re: Shady's Sugar Shine

Post by Sporacle »

Ndb wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:10 am what ahould be my starting ph then
I would think that at 7.5 for your water start it should be OK, then use Shadys method of controlling the pH by throwing in a handful of shells initially. Correcting it now? I don't know, I'm blessed with rainwater for my brewing and the handful of shells works for all my washes. :D
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