Home Distiller

Hi,

I normally do a stripping run with my pot still and the spirit run with my CCVM reflux still, but I always have the feeling that some sort of smearing occurs due to reflux, would it make sense to make another a third distillation with my pot still after the spirit run with reflux to make clean cuts without any smearing do you recommend it or is it an unnecessary run ? what are the advantages and disadvantages of doing this.

Your pot still is going to cause way more smearing than your reflux still . If you are not happy with the product from your reflux still then re-run back through the re-flux will result in a vasly superior product than re-running through the pot .

Anotherway of looking at it is a single run through a reflux still may be doing the equvalent of 10 passes through a pot still .

A re-run through a pot will be equivalent to 11 pot stillings were as a re-run throth the reflux still is equivalent go 20 passes through a potty .

My suggestion is perhaps to run your reflux still a bit slower first time and make better cuts and you won't need to do it a second time .

A reflux still should be much more efficient at separating the alcohol and have less smearing. One way to tell how well your reflux is working is head temp or abv coming off the still. Higher abv will tend to be cleaner.
Imho the trick is matching the number of plates to the desired takeoff abv. Get outside the range the plates work best and you will either be really slow or have smearing.
If you are running 3 or 4 plates and your run is coming off at 140 you have a lot of smearing as you will have to detune the plates to get the lower abv. 3-4 plates should come off at 160 Ish. Personally I run 2 plates and more reflux for whiskey and take off 130-140. 3-4 plates for whites at 160-170.

Hi,

Thanks for the replies, the reason that I asked whether I should do a potstill after the reflux is because It is mainly said that the separations are done best with a pot, but I can confirm that with my CCVM, I get %95 ABV till the end of the run,
But I cannot track the temp, I have a digital thermometer at the top but unfortunately with the reflux I cannot get accurate readings so I rely on the ABV from the alcohol meter, About the speed of distillation, I did a trial last time with my CCVM last time at 23 percent power
I get 500 ml @95 ABV in an hour, I also tried 40 percent power which gives me 2 lt @95 ABV so I believe if I keep the vapour speed low in a reflux I can make better cuts

artooks wrote:...because It is mainly said that the separations are done best with a pot...

I think you’ve misunderstood what you read. The potstill tends to run things together, not separate. A reflux column will separate the fractions based upon their volatilty whereas the potstill cannot.

The potstill is good for flavored spirits BECAUSE it doesn’t separate well the constituents which impart flavors from the ethanol, which is quite flavorless.

artooks wrote:I did a trial last time...at 23 percent power, I get 500 ml @95 ABV in an hour... (at) 40 percent power...gives me 2 lt @95 ABV...

So, I read that to say that you are running a high reflux ratio even at 40% power. Because your purity is high even at that heat input, you should be able to pull product at this rate. If you want to get a better degree of cut gradient, simply collect in more smaller jars.

There really is no advantage to run at 1/2liter per hour if you can collect azeo at 1 liter every 30 minutes (4 times as fast). If you measure the proof falling, then increase the reflux ratio...close your VM valve slightly. The increase in reflux will continue to keep the purity high although your product takeoff will slow down.

You use the reflux ratio to manage purity while the power input will manage the takeoff (production) rate.
ss

I think you are missing that proof is not related to cuts. On a pot still using the same run each time you may be able to say I cut at a particular proof, but that does not mean it holds true on all runs. As you change the boiler starting abv the cuts will occur at different proofs. That's why people say don't use a thermometer. It is not repeatable for getting cuts.

As you found running azeo you can get all the cuts at the same proof. That's what a reflux still can do. It can hold a output proof regardless of the point in the run unlike a pot still which will have the proof decrease as the run progresses and alcohol is depleted.

Hi,

Thanks for all the input, with a pot still even if I do 10 different runs, the cuts for all runs will be at different points, because the potstill cannot output near azeo so there will always be more water compared to reflux, but with a reflux because separations are more pressed and the output is near azeo during the run, then only using reflux will be enough for the spirit run, but I also run a parrot would it make sense not to use it to avoid even smearing at a slow level but I checked the capacity of my parrot with the thermometer inside it can hold 190 ml what I usually do is take out the first 250 ml with the valve below it so it starts fresh after the fore-shots,

Make a third run through your CCVM and sniff the backset.. That will tell you how much tails has been sneaking into your product. I always triple distill for a clean neutral. Heads cut is not necessary or very small.

artooks wrote: I always have the feeling that some sort of smearing occurs due to reflux,

artooks wrote: But I cannot track the temp, I have a digital thermometer at the top but unfortunately with the reflux I cannot get accurate readings so I rely on the ABV from the alcohol meter,

You could spend less time looking at the thermometer, and more time tasting whats leaving the still....then adjust the still take off speed accordingly , That should decrease smearing of any still done right.

artooks wrote:Hi,

Thanks for the replies, the reason that I asked whether I should do a potstill after the reflux is because It is mainly said that the separations are done best with a pot, but I can confirm that with my CCVM, I get %95 ABV till the end of the run,
But I cannot track the temp, I have a digital thermometer at the top but unfortunately with the reflux I cannot get accurate readings so I rely on the ABV from the alcohol meter, About the speed of distillation, I did a trial last time with my CCVM last time at 23 percent power
I get 500 ml @95 ABV in an hour, I also tried 40 percent power which gives me 2 lt @95 ABV so I believe if I keep the vapour speed low in a reflux I can make better cuts

Temperature is just as important as the alcometer reading’

It read I was getting 96% but at 35°C it’s actually 92%

Which is where I’ve plateau’d

Grrrr - time o post some questions myself

hpby98 wrote:

artooks wrote:Hi,

Thanks for the replies, the reason that I asked whether I should do a potstill after the reflux is because It is mainly said that the separations are done best with a pot, but I can confirm that with my CCVM, I get %95 ABV till the end of the run,
But I cannot track the temp, I have a digital thermometer at the top but unfortunately with the reflux I cannot get accurate readings so I rely on the ABV from the alcohol meter, About the speed of distillation, I did a trial last time with my CCVM last time at 23 percent power
I get 500 ml @95 ABV in an hour, I also tried 40 percent power which gives me 2 lt @95 ABV so I believe if I keep the vapour speed low in a reflux I can make better cuts

Temperature is just as important as the alcometer reading’

It read I was getting 96% but at 35°C it’s actually 92%

Which is where I’ve plateau’d

Grrrr - time o post some questions myself

Hi, Alcohol temperature correction is another story, what I usually do is after finisihing the run I leave the alcohol for a day than read the ABV, because it will give enogh time for the alcohol to cool down to 20 degrees celsius,
to avoid that I use a big cooling tank found that the cooling tank needs to be 3 times the capacity, of your boiler capacity, but let's assume you have a small cooling tank and after halfway if you detect that the output
is started to heat up gradually, you can always use the Alcohol Temperature Correction calculator in the mother site, here is the link

https://homedistiller.org/calcs/husker_temp_convert.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


that way you will know exactly what your alcohol ABV is.

artooks wrote:

hpby98 wrote:


Temperature is just as important as the alcometer reading’

It read I was getting 96% but at 35°C it’s actually 92%

Which is where I’ve plateau’d

Grrrr - time o post some questions myself

Hi, Alcohol temperature correction is another story, what I usually do is after finisihing the run I leave the alcohol for a day than read the ABV, because it will give enogh time for the alcohol to cool down to 20 degrees celsius,
to avoid that I use a big cooling tank found that the cooling tank needs to be 3 times the capacity, of your boiler capacity, but let's assume you have a small cooling tank and after halfway if you detect that the output
is started to heat up gradually, you can always use the Alcohol Temperature Correction calculator in the mother site, here is the link

https://homedistiller.org/calcs/husker_temp_convert.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


that way you will know exactly what your alcohol ABV is.

Actually....

The correction tables are for meters calibrated to 20°C. Except many are to 60°F which is 15.55°C

Quite off as I recently found out. Which was disappointing.

Artooks, two litres per hour is a bit fast on a spirit run on a 2" CCVM system. Reduce the heating and you'll also reduce the risk of flooding. Flooding will splash condensate out the offtake. Condensate is likely to be lower ABV than the vapour. It is not exactly smearing but the effect is similar - I learned the hard way. This hobby rewards patience, look for an output rate around 1.2 litres per hour on your 2" CCVM

I also distill my neutral three times. Potstill stripping run and then two reflux runs. The first reflux run very fast only to about 90%abv and only small cuts. Then diluting as much as possible before the last run. The last run also relative fast. Two fast reflux runs or one slow reflux run, I prefer two fast ones.

All the guys have given good replies to you.

I'd recommend a stripping run through the pot still prior to a run with your CCVM.
Take as much foreshots as you can.
The crap ain't supposed to be in the final product, so no need to drag it all the way through the process.
Besides...the stripping run will be less time consuming than the spirit run, so you have plenty of time to get rid of the majority of the nasty stuff.
I vaguely remember your CCVM still.
However, then it should just be a matter of running your CCVM setup correctly, and I think you still need some practice in doing so.
Be sure to get rid of the last impurities at the start of the run....be very conservative.
Furthermore, airing out the spirit over night will contribute a lot to the final quality.

Artooks
Most of the advise is always about big foreshots and head cuts and well .... we all know to do that .

The thing is that what taints your hard earn't nuetral is not from the initial enthousiastic heads cutting but from the lazy , "I've had enough" tails end of the run .

4-6 hours in . ... yawn .. dribble ... dribble ... just a bit more .... yawn.... dribble .:. Dribble


Sorry .

OK we all read collect n small jars ... sad thing is many don't .... it all goes into a big jar .... then we wonder why it tastes like crap .Concentrated Tails ... thats what kills it .

So....I do the initial fores /heads collection in jars . ... just like most ( and do heads / hearts cuts next day )

Then I know I'm gonna collect about 3-4 liters so I get a demijon ready ... but ... I don't let it all poor into it .
I still collect a jar full .... but before I poor that jar into the Demi , I grab a spoon of water , stick it under the spout and splash some in and have a sniff and a taste ....


The thing about a reflux still is it compresses things . So when the hearts have almost come to an end then suddenly ....and it it is suddenly the tails appear . And they smell and taste fuck'n horrid ... you would have to be seriously taste and smell deprived if you could not detect them ... they are " smack you in the face apparent "


So when that teaspoon of " shit " comes near my face I accept that the last jar I have collected is pretty much contaminated and it does not go in my collection demijon .

At this point I stop collecting and shut down the still as it has reached the end of the run .

I can guarantee that what is in my collection demi is good hearts

Great info thanks guys about smearing do you also think parrots also contribute to some degree of smearing,
Would it be better not to use it at all ? Or it does not have that big effect ?

artooks wrote:...do you also think parrots also contribute to some degree of smearing...

Spoonfeeding? Have you searched the forum for this? Believe it or not, this has been discussed many, many times.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=57195
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61645
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38420
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=46917
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=39368
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33943

Now...get busy reading.
ss

still_stirrin wrote:

artooks wrote:...do you also think parrots also contribute to some degree of smearing...

Spoonfeeding? Have you searched the forum for this? Believe it or not, this has been discussed many, many times.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=57195
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61645
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38420
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=46917
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=39368
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33943

Now...get busy reading.
ss

Believe it or not ı am a regular reader in the forums, I already read many
Of them so please stop calling my questions “spoonfeeding” I am asking
and wondering the opinions of the people who contribured to this thread.
I am sure you can understand it.

I totally agree that parrots , and especially one like you say you have that holds about 250mls will smear .
I don't use a parrot ... don't own one for that reason .

If I care to know what the ABV is , I usually just poor a but of the last jar I collected into a measuring cylinder and float the hydrometer in it .

The only parrot design I would use is the one with a bypass on it that you close the valve and it fills to measure , then open to proceed with collection .

Personally I just run a still head thermometer as vapor temperature is proportional to Abv. Then you know what the abv is of your output and no smearing due to a parrot. Also you dont have to convert for temperature like a hydrometer.

If you empty the parrot it only smears as much as your collection jar already smears. If you nust take off drips or a stream then yes it smears.

Cheers!
-j

der wo wrote:I also distill my neutral three times. Potstill stripping run and then two reflux runs. The first reflux run very fast only to about 90%abv and only small cuts. Then diluting as much as possible before the last run. The last run also relative fast. Two fast reflux runs or one slow reflux run, I prefer two fast ones.

Good to know der wo

Started my second reflux run with ~6 gallons at 92% and was hoping to get better results using the same copper packing but nope. What I get is what I get no matter how many times I run it it seems. Even bumping up power from 1100 to 1500 watts to increase the reflux rate didn’t help with my 2” column.

I have 1/4 - 1/2” lava rock coming Friday and will attempt again. Really really wanna get it up there.

bluefish_dist wrote:Personally I just run a still head thermometer as vapor temperature is proportional to Abv. Then you know what the abv is of your output and no smearing due to a parrot.

All very well and good if your running the same wash/mash over and over again and know your cut points by temp from many previous runs of the same.
I doubt that , that way of doing it is going to help a bloke like Artooks whos probably still experimenting with different washes, quantities and stills.
The Best advice so far has been to slow the hell down with his take off rate....use small jars and make cuts carefully.
A 2inch reflux still is a slow animal by its very nature.....you cant hurry them or push them, without getting a shit product.

Edit; Ive got 3 different parrots of different sizes with alcometers to match....I never use the damn things. Really how hard is it to hold a measuring cylinder under the spout once in a while ....have a sniff and taste of the contents and then drop the hydrometer in. ? We ain't making hundreds of gallons of spirt a day here .

I have no build skills so I just use a measuring cylinder. Artooks finds ways of overcompiicating things. People are trying all the time for taller fatter faster stills than the next one when the only thing that matters is the product. Grandma used to say "the proof is in the pudding". I thought she meant the Sherry but I understand differently now.

kimbodious wrote:I have no build skills so I just use a measuring cylinder. Artooks finds ways of overcompiicating things. People are trying all the time for taller fatter faster stills than the next one when the only thing that matters is the product. Grandma used to say "the proof is in the pudding". I thought she meant the Sherry but I understand differently now.

Well I am experimenting with different power settings and different rc levels so all I can say is I am never in a hurry in such a hobby, on the contrary I used to collect 500 ml in the past but many people find very slow and suggested to increase the heat so I did but it went too far but now I know where I will get 1lt/hrs.

Thanks

bluefish_dist wrote:Personally I just run a still head thermometer as vapor temperature is proportional to Abv. Then you know what the abv is of your output and no smearing due to a parrot. Also you dont have to convert for temperature like a hydrometer.

I use this method also. I have a big assed chart posted on the wall near my still. This method will tell me the % abv of my distillate regardless of the mash. A temp of195° is going to be damned close to 62% - 63% regardless of whether I fermented Oreo cookies, cracked corn or barley.

I don't advocate trying to make cuts using temp or %abv. I don't see where bluefish-dist did, either. If one were bound and determined to make cuts based on %abv, they could probably use this method to determine the %abv without experiencing the effects of parrot smearing.

Saltbush Bill wrote:

bluefish_dist wrote:Personally I just run a still head thermometer as vapor temperature is proportional to Abv. Then you know what the abv is of your output and no smearing due to a parrot.

All very well and good if your running the same wash/mash over and over again and know your cut points by temp from many previous runs of the same.
I doubt that , that way of doing it is going to help a bloke like Artooks whos probably still experimenting with different washes, quantities and stills.
The Best advice so far has been to slow the hell down with his take off rate....use small jars and make cuts carefully.
A 2inch reflux still is a slow animal by its very nature.....you cant hurry them or push them, without getting a shit product.

Edit; Ive got 3 different parrots of different sizes with alcometers to match....I never use the damn things. Really how hard is it to hold a measuring cylinder under the spout once in a while ....have a sniff and taste of the contents and then drop the hydrometer in. ? We ain't making hundreds of gallons of spirt a day here .

If you look further up I have posted that abv/head temp have almost no bearing on cuts. Unless you are running the exact same run every time it has no useful purpose for cuts. I don't use anything other than taste and smell to make cuts. Knowing the abv at the still head is useful to know if I am running too fast or I am using the right amount of reflux to get the abv that I desire.
I know from many runs what abv/temp I want for my whites or my barrel aged products. I know at least one member here who runs in a similar manner. More information on what is going on inside the still is useful to repeat taste profiles over different wash/worts.

bluefish_dist wrote: I know at least one member here who runs in a similar manner. More information on what is going on inside the still is useful to repeat taste profiles over different wash/worts.

dunno if yer talkin' 'bout me...but if not, you know 2.