Left over 3 inch Copper Pipe

[Budapest8485]

I'm plotting a reflux column build. I have 10 feet of free 3 inch type K (heavy-duty) copper tubing left over from commercial project. This is heavy stuff that will be hard to solder, but I'm sure I can make it work with two or three torches heating it at the same time.

Cost not being an issue, is there an advantage to building a column from this heavy duty 3 inch instead of 2 inch stuff that will be easier for me to handle and work with? Can I get a cleaner spirit packing a 3 inch column with much more mass that will pull the heat out of the distillate? Or will this work against my 1500 watt electric 8 gallon boiler plan?

I'm a rookie who wants to build a great column the first time that I can switch to a large boiler in the future if desired. I don't mind spending money if it can lead to a superior result. Using the 3 inch will be cheaper for me than buying the stuff to go 2 inch. 3 or 2...what should I do?

[Expat]

The information you seek is well discussed here in the build threads.

Somewhat depends on what you're trying to make and what column you want to build. Can you elaborate?

In general, increasing diameter will increase speed, increasing the height of a reflux column will increase the purity at the take off point. So a tall 3" column will be be faster than a 2", but not necessarily any more pure. I would say work with the materials you have.

A concern, 1500 watts probably wouldn't be enough power to run a 3" column, it's less than I was using on my 2" setup. Also, Heat up time on the boiler will be quite long. I would suggest using a larger element and a power controller. Long term better than building too small and then rebuilding.

[Budapest8485]

The information you seek is well discussed here in the build threads.

Somewhat depends on what you're trying to make and what column you want to build. Can you elaborate?

In general, increasing diameter will increase speed, increasing the height of a reflux column will increase the purity at the take off point. So a tall 3" column will be be faster than a 2", but not necessarily any more pure. I would say work with the materials you have.

A concern, 1500 watts probably wouldn't be enough power to run a 3" column, it's less than I was using on my 2" setup. Also, Heat up time on the boiler will be quite long. I would suggest using a larger element and a power controller. Long term better than building too small and then rebuilding.

Thanks for the response. My hope is to make the purest vodka possible at first and then expand into other types of spirits later. I plan to use tri clamps to be able to adjust the height of the column (add and remove column sections) and make it easier to disassemble and clean.

I'm not concerned about speed. If that's the only advantage of a 3 inch versus 2, I'll just buy 2 inch so it'll be easier to handle and built.

[Yummyrum]

I agree with expat . 1500watts is way too low . 3” can probably handle 6kw easy . You want to have heaps of reflux to get a clean product and to get that you need heaps if vapour . That needs a lot of power to produce it .
Sure it will work on 1500 w but you will be drawing product at a drip speed instead of a reasonable speed that could be taken off that size .
You will need to wrap it in insulation . Thats just normal for any tall packed column to prevent upsetting equalibrium due to air movements but you will as you say have a big heat sink there as well ..:: yet another reason the 1500 w is on the low side

[hellbilly007]

3" vs 2" is the difference between a 4 hour spirit run vs a 12 or more hour spirit run. That is with your heat source matched to the column diameter. When you combine the times of your stripping runs with the spirit run you'll be wishing you had went with the 3".

2" columns have made plenty of clean neutral for folks and we're not saying it can't be done. We're just looking out for your best interest down the road.

What type of reflux still are you looking to build?

[Budapest8485]

A forced reflux still with two lines running through it. I'm researching things before I get started...this will likely be something I'll start in Oct-Nov.

I will take your advice on the 3 inch column, but I think I should get lighter weight copper. This commercial stuff is really heavy. It'll be difficult to solder, a pain to move around, and drain a lot of heat from the distillate. Maybe I'll look for stainless stuff and add copper mesh to the column.

[greggn]

>A forced reflux still with two lines running through it.
>I'm researching things before I get started

Research a CCVM and you'll find it a far better reflux design than cross-tubes.

[Budapest8485]

>A forced reflux still with two lines running through it.
>I'm researching things before I get started

Research a CCVM and you'll find it a far better reflux design than cross-tubes.

Thanks for the suggestions. I looked at this and thought it was called a bokabob reflux still. After reading this, I was under the impression it's inferior to the type of forced reflux design: https://brewhaus.com/blog/reflux-still- ... ed-part-1/

[hellbilly007]

>A forced reflux still with two lines running through it.
>I'm researching things before I get started

Research a CCVM and you'll find it a far better reflux design than cross-tubes.

I'll second that.

[Budapest8485]

The CCVM concept is interesting. The valve installation to control the reflux ratio is something I had not considered.

I'm now planning to go this direction. My next determination is how large of tubing I need to come off the of the column toward the condenser. I can go any size, but 1/2 inch would be easiest...if that doesn't limit the production.

I'm planning a 3 inch column. Supply house has a 3''x3''x1/2'' T fitting that would work nicely and allow me to put the reflux condenser on top.

[still_stirrin]

The CCVM concept is interesting. The valve installation to control the reflux ratio is something I had not considered.

I'm now planning to go this direction. My next determination is how large of tubing I need to come off the of the column toward the condenser. I can go any size, but 1/2 inch would be easiest...if that doesn't limit the production.

I'm planning a 3 inch column. Supply house has a 3''x3''x1/2'' T fitting that would work nicely and allow me to put the reflux condenser on top.

For a vapor managed still, you DON’T want to reduce the vapor outlet drastically. Keep the vapor outlet at least 2”ID. You can easily feed that into a shotgun product condenser. Maybe, you could reduce to 1 3/4” ID, but I’d advise against that, especially with a 3” diameter tower.

With a vapor managed reflux still, it is the balance of vapor between the reflux condenser and the product condenser that establishes (and maintains) the reflux ratio. This is why this design is the easiest to run. Once set...forget! It’ll run until you’ve exhausted the alcohol from the boiler.

Read...read...read. Don’t be so anxious to commit until you know what you want.
ss

[greggn]

>The CCVM concept is interesting. The valve installation to control the reflux ratio is something I had not considered.


"CCVM" and "valve" are mutually exclusive. That's the idea. No offense but you haven't read enough.

[Budapest8485]

>The CCVM concept is interesting. The valve installation to control the reflux ratio is something I had not considered.


"CCVM" and "valve" are mutually exclusive. That's the idea. No offense but you haven't read enough.

This is what I'm looking at when I mention the valve: http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/BW_ ... Mg==/?ref=

[still_stirrin]

Uhhhhh....the sketch says, “cooling management”....it’s NOT a vapor managed reflux head. The refux is generated (not very effectively either) by the coolant cross tubes in the vapor path. Those types of CM heads are not very efficient. Plus, they’re a “bitch” to operate.

Back to the beginning....you need to read more....and don’t just look at pictures.
ss

[Budapest8485]

Uhhhhh....the sketch says, “cooling management”....it’s NOT a vapor managed reflux head. The refux is generated (not very effectively either) by the coolant cross tubes in the vapor path. Those types of CM heads are not very efficient. Plus, they’re a “bitch” to operate.

Back to the beginning....you need to read more....and don’t just look at pictures.
ss

Oops, my mistake. I provided the wrong link. This is what I'm referring to with the valve: http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/BW_ ... NQ==/?ref=

[still_stirrin]

...Oops, my mistake. I provided the wrong link. This is what I'm referring to with the valve:

OK, I’m going to ask you to post photos on this site. When you post on an external site, the photos won’t sustain through time (and stay with the thread, making it worth less to other readers in the future). To post on the HD site, you’ll need to resize them to no greater than 800 x 800 pixels. Then, scroll to the attachment tab (at the bottom of your response entry block) and navigate to the photo. You can then upload it to the site.

Now, the sketch you posted this time is indeed a VM. I have a VM/LM combination head for my reflux column. The VM valve is set to adjust the reflux ratio. Once it’s set, you simply adjust the takeoff rate by adjusting the input power. It’ll keep the purity at the reflux ratio (RR) relatively constant throughout the run. You don’t need to adjust the coolant like you would on a CM.

But, as I said previously, you don’t want a significant change in vapor flow area from the column to the branch piping where the valve is located because it reduces the “control ability” of the VM valve to give you a range of product (higher or lower purity potential)

On mine, I have a 2” column (on a 39” marble packed column) with a 2” x 1-1/2” DWV Tee branch which I reduce to a 1” stainless ball valve. After the valve the piping, I keep the vapor tube at 1” to the shotgun product condenser. In it, I have 7 x 3/8” vapor tubes in the tube bank. The shell is 1-1/2”, so the vapor tubes are quite tightly packed in the exchanger.

Dad300’s condenser controlled vapor managed (CCVM) still design is unique in that the corrogated stainless steel reflux condenser also acts as the control for the vapor split between the reflux condenser and the product condenser. How the top (reflux) condenser is placed determines what the reflux ratio will be. But like a conventional VM design, once the RR is set for the run, you really don’t need to adjust it again. Just adjust the heat input to increase or decrease the takeoff stream.

You’re getting closer....keep reading.
ss

[Budapest8485]

...Oops, my mistake. I provided the wrong link. This is what I'm referring to with the valve:

OK, I’m going to ask you to post photos on this site. When you post on an external site, the photos won’t sustain through time (and stay with the thread, making it worth less to other readers in the future). To post on the HD site, you’ll need to resize them to no greater than 800 x 800 pixels. Then, scroll to the attachment tab (at the bottom of your response entry block) and navigate to the photo. You can then upload it to the site.

Now, the sketch you posted this time is indeed a VM. I have a VM/LM combination head for my reflux column. The VM valve is set to adjust the reflux ratio. Once it’s set, you simply adjust the takeoff rate by adjusting the input power. It’ll keep the purity at the reflux ratio (RR) relatively constant throughout the run. You don’t need to adjust the coolant like you would on a CM.

But, as I said previously, you don’t want a significant change in vapor flow area from the column to the branch piping where the valve is located because it reduces the “control ability” of the VM valve to give you a range of product (higher or lower purity potential)

On mine, I have a 2” column (on a 39” marble packed column) with a 2” x 1-1/2” DWV Tee branch which I reduce to a 1” stainless ball valve. After the valve the piping, I keep the vapor tube at 1” to the shotgun product condenser. In it, I have 7 x 3/8” vapor tubes in the tube bank. The shell is 1-1/2”, so the vapor tubes are quite tightly packed in the exchanger.

Dad300’s condenser controlled vapor managed (CCVM) still design is unique in that the corrogated stainless steel reflux condenser also acts as the control for the vapor split between the reflux condenser and the product condenser. How the top (reflux) condenser is placed determines what the reflux ratio will be. But like a conventional VM design, once the RR is set for the run, you really don’t need to adjust it again. Just adjust the heat input to increase or decrease the takeoff stream.

You’re getting closer....keep reading.
ss

Thanks for the feedback. I agree, I'm getting closer to finalizing my plan.

Surprising how expensive this is going to be...even with the free 3 inch copper tubing, I'm going to ring in about $800

8 gallon Milk Can Kettle: $240 with two openings for heating elements
2 Heating elements: $100
PID: $40
3 Ferrules: $24 I want to make a modular unit I can also use as a pot still
2 Tri-clamps: $22
3 inch T: $50
Reflux condenser coil: $50
3 inch lead free brass gate valve: $100
3 inch Elbow: $27
Shotgun plate for fabrication: $25
1/2 copper for shotgun: $15
Shotgun water Condenser Inlet/Out: $15
3 inch reducer to 1/2 output: $70
Packing Mesh: $20

I can probably cut corners and do more fabrications...maybe save $200. But It would be nice to have a good looking unit in the end without gobs of solder and rough amateur fabrication. Maybe I'll skip the gate valve and just focus on controlling the reflux ratio with the reflux condenser. I'm planning a 60 inch column. I have 96 inches of free 3 inch copper tubing.

I enjoy a project and I'm confident in my abilities to do this. Maybe I'll look at something that's already build and make sure I'm making the right decision.

[Expat]

In general, making a good piece of equipment is expensive. For the hobby distiller it's not going to be cheaper to build and make your own, at least short term... It's about creating a better product, crafted to your personal taste and the gratification in doing so.

Honestly, if I were to add together the cost of everything I've put in... I'll likely never drink the equivalent in a decade. But that's not the point.

Regarding a PID. Don't buy it. They're completely useless for distilling. Look around the site for SSR and potentiometer setups. Easy to build, and works perfectly.

A PID is turning the element on and off whereas an SSR is a continuous but variable heat source, which is what's required.

[Budapest8485]

In general, making a good piece of equipment is expensive. For the hobby distiller it's not going to be cheaper to build and make your own, at least short term... It's about creating a better product, crafted to your personal taste and the gratification in doing so.

Honestly, if I were to add together the cost of everything I've put in... I'll likely never drink the equivalent in a decade. But that's not the point.

Regarding a PID. Don't buy it. They're completely useless for distilling. Look around the site for SSR and potentiometer setups. Easy to build, and works perfectly.

A PID is turning the element on and off whereas an SSR is a continuous but variable heat source, which is what's required.

I'll check it out. Thanks!

[still_stirrin]

...3 inch lead free brass gate valve: $100 <— save some $$$ here, reduce to 2” VM control valve. It’ll still work good and yet you can get down to a 2.25 minimum reflux ratio when desired.

...3 inch Elbow: $27 <— if you reduce your gate valve size, you can reduce this too. save $$.

...3 inch reducer to 1/2 output: $70 <— if the VM valve and elbow are 2”, you’ll save some $$ here too. In fact, it may be less expensive to reduce from 2” to 1” and then to 3/4” or 1/2” for the product outlet.
I put a union on mine so I can “aim” the spout to a location I put the collection jars. Granted, shotguns operate best when vertical. But that doesn’t mean you can’t “swing” the product outlet to a location that works in your stillhouse.

....I have 96 inches of free 3 inch copper tubing. <— sometimes, the best thing to do with 3” is to sell it. Certainly, type K copper is “overkill” and would have a lot of salvage value ($$/lb.)

I enjoy a project and I'm confident in my abilities to do this. Maybe I'll look at something that's already build and make sure I'm making the right decision. <— don’t be afraid to build. The experience and knowledge gained is invaluable. You’ll understand your still better if it has your “sweat equity” in it. Guaranteed.

[Stew8]

Hi Buda
Like you I was given a scrap 3” and moved from a 1.5” and did not look back. I’ve had to upgrade the heating gas ring and it’s reduced my run time, by more than half. The take off %ABV dropped slightly but it’s not an issue, (for me)
Fortunately the cooling of the first rig was overdesigned so was able to cope with the new gas ring and column.
My only regret is not getting a gas ring with three controls, the warm up is easy, it’s the control when it’s up to temp that’s not fine enough

Overall worth doing.

[Budapest8485]

...3 inch lead free brass gate valve: $100 <— save some $$$ here, reduce to 2” VM control valve. It’ll still work good and yet you can get down to a 2.25 minimum reflux ratio when desired.

...3 inch Elbow: $27 <— if you reduce your gate valve size, you can reduce this too. save $$.

...3 inch reducer to 1/2 output: $70 <— if the VM valve and elbow are 2”, you’ll save some $$ here too. In fact, it may be less expensive to reduce from 2” to 1” and then to 3/4” or 1/2” for the product outlet.
I put a union on mine so I can “aim” the spout to a location I put the collection jars. Granted, shotguns operate best when vertical. But that doesn’t mean you can’t “swing” the product outlet to a location that works in your stillhouse.

....I have 96 inches of free 3 inch copper tubing. <— sometimes, the best thing to do with 3” is to sell it. Certainly, type K copper is “overkill” and would have a lot of salvage value ($$/lb.)

I enjoy a project and I'm confident in my abilities to do this. Maybe I'll look at something that's already build and make sure I'm making the right decision. <— don’t be afraid to build. The experience and knowledge gained is invaluable. You’ll understand your still better if it has your “sweat equity” in it. Guaranteed.

2 inch Lead-free brass gate valve, okay? Stainless is $100 more. I want to do it right, but if I can save $100 I'm happier.

[still_stirrin]

...2 inch Lead-free brass gate valve, okay? Stainless is $100 more. I want to do it right, but if I can save $100 I'm happier.

If you’re sure it is “lead-free”.

However, most NSF brass is “below measureable threshholds” for lead content by code now if used for potable water service in the USA. Save the $$$ and invest it in something else useful.

Incidently, I use a 1” nominal lead-free brass body with stainless steel ball valve as my VM valve. Teflon seats & seals too.
ss

[Twisted Brick]

don’t be afraid to build. The experience and knowledge gained is invaluable. You’ll understand your still better if it has your “sweat equity” in it. Guaranteed.

+1

I was gifted lengths of 3" and 2" copper, was completely new to the hobby and started my career by building a modular 3" pot/CCVM rig and shotgun. The satisfaction of building your own goes way beyond the ease/limits of purchasing a still and the placement of your name and address with the feds that goes with it.

Here are some ideas you might be able to use if you build your shotgun.

Good luck.

[Budapest8485]

don’t be afraid to build. The experience and knowledge gained is invaluable. You’ll understand your still better if it has your “sweat equity” in it. Guaranteed.

+1

I was gifted lengths of 3" and 2" copper, was completely new to the hobby and started my career by building a modular 3" pot/CCVM rig and shotgun. The satisfaction of building your own goes way beyond the ease/limits of purchasing a still and the placement of your name and address with the feds that goes with it.

Here are some ideas you might be able to use if you build your shotgun.

Good luck.

You make a good point about the feds...I am the paranoid type. But I am planning to order a milk can. Not sure where I would be able to get that locally and pay cash. I could get a beer keg, but I want to be able reach down in there and scrub it out...also store stuff inside when I'm not using it.

[Expat]

You make a good point about the feds...I am the paranoid type. But I am planning to order a milk can. Not sure where I would be able to get that locally and pay cash. I could get a beer keg, but I want to be able reach down in there and scrub it out...also store stuff inside when I'm not using it.

A couple of points here:

- milk can or keg - unless you are going to buy a ready made boiler, you're going to be needing to make some changes. In which case you can weld (or have someone weld for you) any required fittings. Not sure but depending on who you order from, a milk can boiler might get you on a list, whereas a keg boiler definitely off the record

- You mentioned you're building electric. In which case the need to have a arm sized opening is much less. So long as the heating element is removable you should be good since any scorching should be on the element only. give the element a scrub and wash away anything else that's left inside the keg. Done.

[Budapest8485]

You make a good point about the feds...I am the paranoid type. But I am planning to order a milk can. Not sure where I would be able to get that locally and pay cash. I could get a beer keg, but I want to be able reach down in there and scrub it out...also store stuff inside when I'm not using it.

A couple of points here:

- milk can or keg - unless you are going to buy a ready made boiler, you're going to be needing to make some changes. In which case you can weld (or have someone weld for you) any required fittings. Not sure but depending on who you order from, a milk can boiler might get you on a list, whereas a keg boiler definitely off the record

- You mentioned you're building electric. In which case the need to have a arm sized opening is much less. So long as the heating element is removable you should be good since any scorching should be on the element only. give the element a scrub and wash away anything else that's left inside the keg. Done.

My intention was to buy the milk can with ferrule openings at the top and two on the sides...ready made. Maybe I'm not paranoid enough, because the possibility of this coming back to bite me didn't occur to me until the post above. I'm going to scout around and see if I can find a place to buy with cash.

But it doesn't matter anyway because everything I post is hypothetical in nature. I'm not going to execute any of these plans I discuss

[Twisted Brick]

My intention was to buy the milk can with ferrule openings at the top and two on the sides...ready made. Maybe I'm not paranoid enough, because the possibility of this coming back to bite me didn't occur to me until the post above. I'm going to scout around and see if I can find a place to buy with cash.

I apologise. I didn't intend it to sound so disastrous, merely to make you aware that the TTB some time ago started requesting still manufacturers and sellers to provide lists of buyers (and their addresses) who purchased "Any apparatus capable of being used for separating alcoholic or spirituous vapors, or spiritous solutions, or spirits, from spirituous solutions or mixtures..."

I cannot accurately cite whether "any apparatus" is any single component such as boiler or condenser, or if it refers to a complete still. I am curious though, and will call around tomorrow for answers. My guess is that if you bought just a milk can and fabricated everything else, you would not be put on any list. I'll find out tomorrow.

In the meantime, IMO, you don't have much to really worry about as long as you don't sell. The proliferation of purveyors of stills and stilling equipment (even EBay and Amazon) has gradually increased by orders of magnitude, and if the TTB had initiated raids based on supplied lists we'd have heard about it.

Here are a few threads, however old, that might lead you to the same conclusion:

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=39678

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29360

[The Baker]

Though you never know.

Maybe a hundred years ago, in, I think, Finland or somewhere near, they brought in a law forbidding home distillation.

AND THEY ENFORCED IT.

Geoff

[Twisted Brick]

I spoke with a still manufacturer in WA state who shared with me that the TTB requires that he keeps records for 3 years, but has never been asked for any information since they opened. He also clarified that the TTB lists sales of a column, complete still or condenser as criteria to make the list to be reported. A boiler/kettle is exempted. He has an extensive array of stills for sale to micro distilleries as well as the home stiller. He also has stills for sale on EBay.

He mentioned he felt the TTB is currently tapped out on resources, given the proliferation of micro distilleries and simply doesn't have the time to look into home still sales.