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Ball Jar Lid Fix + Head Room Question

Like a few members here, I’ve used wax paper as a barrier between my spirits and the coated lids that come with Ball jars. Through my trials of different aging techniques, I’ve come up with a few different style stands to tie my wood to for aging. All the stands have been stainless steel and all have been designed to hold wood in and out of whatever spirit I’m aging. The idea here is to let the spirit move in and out of the wood when the climate changes. With chips or a fully saturated chunk of wood, you don’t get the same aging process.

I had a small eureka moment when I realized that I could kill two birds with one stone. Replace the lid insert with a stainless plate and put a hole in the center for a stainless bold to go through. Tie the wood to that bolt to hold the wood in place. I have images below of my lid change out / aging lid.

Happy with the change from my old submerged stand, I now am questioning what the right amount of head room is. Maybe this doesn’t play as big a part in aging as I think?!? The idea here is obviously to mock barrel aging as much as possible and in a very easy manner.

With the angels pulling their share, head room starts to develop in a barrel. This introduces oxygen and I’m sure effects the barrel aging somewhat.

To all of you who have been in the game for longer than myself, please share your wisdom.

Input, thoughts and questions are all welcome.

Cheers
Irish Submerged chunk of charred white oak Old lid with wax paper New stainless lid with stainless bolt and nut Charred white oak tied to bolt with uncoated stainless jewelry wire New lid in place Side view showing the wood suspended in and out of spirit

Figured I should add some images of my older style stands, that way you guys have a better visual. See below
I still use these in my larger gallon and two gallon aging jars because the lids are one piece.

Cheers
Irish

nice stainless lids.

If there's no teflon seal between the jar and the stainless lid it seems like you'd get at least a little bit of air exchange, no? Maybe just open it once in a while and close it back up?

MtRainier wrote:nice stainless lids.

Thanks MtRainier!

I am down with the jar having a loose lid on the register for some slight evaporation.

I'm looking for more of a air % above the spirit, within the jar.
I know that when O2 is introduced into the barrel (which increases over time) esters start to change/develop.
So, is too much air good/bad? Has anyone noticed a good air to spirit ratio?

Cheers

Leaving 1/3rd headroom works for me.

When aging in glass, I fill a 2 liter jar with 1500ml, and a 800ml jar with 750ml. Then when aging, I’ll periodically open the jar, smell it, and then relid and shake it up good. I do this (approximately) weekly for the larger 2 liter jars. For the quart (800ml) jars, I check and shake twice a week.

Other than that...I simply don’t worry too much about it. Checking it periodically, I can monitor progress easy enough.

Oh, and right now I have a quart jar that only has about 450ml in it because it was the “leftovers”. It’s fine, because when it has aged properly, I’ll blend it back with the other jars anyway.
ss

curiosity forces me to ask why you don't just put a stainless screw

though that hole in the lid into the end grain of your stick ?

What is this noob (me) missing ?

I just throw them in and let em sink

Thank you all for your input!

Cob
I could put a stainless screw through the hole and drill right into the oak.
The advantage of tying wood to the bolt is that I can add multiple chunks of wood if I please.

Jsparrow
The point here is that I don’t want to saturate the wood.
A barrel pulls the spirits in and out of the wood.
I am trying to recreate the Same process on a smaller scale.

I will play with the amount I fill the jar with and take notes.
Looking for a common starting ground.

Thank you all again
Cheers
Irish

this recent post by Irishgnome prompted me to do a web search for stainless steel lids for my 80 oz. and

l gallon glass jars, to no avail, but I did find lots of stainless canning jar lids with silicone gaskets

I have no way of knowing if the silicone gaskets are removable or not.

the search terms used were stainless steel jar lids.

this is one of many sights that offer stainless lids.

https://www.trueleafmarket.com/products ... 1471278195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I put this in the mason jar lids thread which is in the do not use section, so copied and pasted to here

Wouldn't it be better to use something that doesn't come with an inherent problem that has to be overcome?

If I find a nice looking piece of sizeable glassware, I ask myself if I can easily buy, or already have, a suitable closure for it. If the answer is no, I leave it in the shop, recycling bin, or wherever I found it. Everything in my shed is aged with natural cork. If I want to hang something in the headroom, I either trap it with the cork or poke it through the cork.

cob wrote:I have no way of knowing if the silicone gaskets are removable or not.

Hmmm... looks to me like the gaskets are clearly shown as separate in some of the product images in your link.

I don't do this technique... mostly using barrels for brown spirits at present.

But thinking about this technique, I would think the wood act as a "wick" to draw the liquid up and give it a bit more surface area to evaporate from. But when the contents cool down, and air is drawn into the jar, I would not expect that air to go into the wood much. It seems that would be a path of greater resistance. I'm suspecting the air will just fill the space above the liquid, but the wood will continue to stay saturated as it wicks the liquid into it via capillary action and surface tension.

If you're looking for the flow of moisture/air through the wood to be bi-directional, I doubt that you're getting it with that system. I'm thinking you would have to find a way for the air ingress path to be predominantly / solely trough the wood (like the Badmo does).

NZ. - I have a complete fabrication shop at my disposal, so making stainless parts is pretty easy. I can have the stainless lids laser cut in about a minute (not including my time in CAD). I am somewhat in agreeance with you on altering a product, but for me this is even easier than purchasing corks.

Detroit. – I have made two Badmo barrels and think that they are great. I have a pile of oak aging outside to make additional Badmo barrels in the future. I also have a few mini barrels that I age spirits in and have plans to purchase more.

With this style of lid, I am looking for a cheap and easy way (for me) to get the simulated effect of barrel aging.

From what I see with the few jars that I have been playing with, is that the wood does act as a wick. I can visibly see a wet/saturated line in the wood, it moves up and down the wood. This fluctuation happens when I move the jars between cold and warm atmospheres. The spirit is moving in and out of the wood without question.

I feel like I need to continue to play with this approach and compare the results that I get with other aging techniques.

I’ll keep you guys updated as I continue down this path and see what I get.

Thank you all for your input!

Cheers
Irish

So Detroit, you got me thinking about airflow here.

How could I get outside air to flow through the wood, essentially creating more of a barrel style atmosphere?

Bi directional air flow as you mentioned.

Not saying that this will work as good as a badmo, but I think it has some potential with glass jar ageing. It surely is a step above just tossing a few charred dominos, or JD chips in a mason jar.

Here is what I have: ½” x 5” SS Bolt W/ ¼” hole bored 4” down the center and five ¼” holes through the side, a SS washer and a SS nut. “I know it’s a minimal passage way for air, but it’s a start” I will drill through a block of oak and lock it in place between the lid and the washer.

Just another step.

Cheers
Irish

Wow. I like it Irish.

I'm thinking your could turn a piece of wood, bore out the enter to the diameter of the OD of the threads, and slip it over that threaded rod. That would force the vast majority of the "breathing" air through the wood.

If you did the same through a solid stainless rod, or tapped the turned wooden dowel, then you could force all of the "breathing" through the wood.

Funny thing. I just made 5 gallons of a marc apple brandy (which I'm none too pleased with yet) and have it stored in a stainless container with toasted oak sticks in it. Your notes here have me thinking how do I get air in/out of the stainless and through the wood. Mine is a fusti with a screw top lid. It would be difficult to make Badmo style, and the wood cap would be at the top so I may need a wick to keep the wood hydrated (etholated??), or maybe I'll just try adopting your solution here to the fusti.

DetroitDIY wrote:Wow. I like it Irish.

I'm thinking your could turn a piece of wood, bore out the enter to the diameter of the OD of the threads, and slip it over that threaded rod. That would force the vast majority of the "breathing" air through the wood.

If you did the same through a solid stainless rod, or tapped the turned wooden dowel, then you could force all of the "breathing" through the wood.

Funny thing. I just made 5 gallons of a marc apple brandy (which I'm none too pleased with yet) and have it stored in a stainless container with toasted oak sticks in it. Your notes here have me thinking how do I get air in/out of the stainless and through the wood. Mine is a fusti with a screw top lid. It would be difficult to make Badmo style, and the wood cap would be at the top so I may need a wick to keep the wood hydrated (etholated??), or maybe I'll just try adopting your solution here to the fusti.

Make a hole in the stainless.

Stick a cork in it.

Geoff

DetroitDIY wrote:Wow. I like it Irish.

I'm thinking your could turn a piece of wood, bore out the enter to the diameter of the OD of the threads, and slip it over that threaded rod. That would force the vast majority of the "breathing" air through the wood.

That's the plan!
I'll post some images with the new set up soon.

Cheers
Irish

I have realized that to go this route, I will need to use thicker oak blocks that will need to be turn down. So, I ordered some 2” x 2” x 10” white oak blocks and set outside to start aging. Based on the thickness, I think that these should age a little longer then the oak I use for badmos. For the larger blocks, I will need to revisit this in 1 to 2 years. For now, I thought about some alternatives to the blocks. Here’s what I came up with for testing:

Cut down some of my weathered/aged oak. Since I don’t have a wood lathe, I used a hole-saw (I agree that this is sloppy and not the greatest plan, but I need to play). Sanded the oak, stacked onto the bolt, sandwiched between the stainless lid and a stainless washer, impacted and charred.

I had some week old grape brandy that needed some oak, so the adventure begins. Clearly this is still in the research and development stages.

If anyone reading this has some thicker aged oak, say 1-1/2” x 1-1/2” x 4” or larger and would be willing to donate for science (or trade), I’d love to talk (PM me).
For the time being, I’ll keep working with the stacking approach. I have a lath in the works, so the wood should look a hell of a lot better on the next one!

Input / Criticism Welcome

Cheers
Irish

The Baker wrote:

DetroitDIY wrote:Wow. I like it Irish.

I'm thinking your could turn a piece of wood, bore out the enter to the diameter of the OD of the threads, and slip it over that threaded rod. That would force the vast majority of the "breathing" air through the wood.

If you did the same through a solid stainless rod, or tapped the turned wooden dowel, then you could force all of the "breathing" through the wood.

Funny thing. I just made 5 gallons of a marc apple brandy (which I'm none too pleased with yet) and have it stored in a stainless container with toasted oak sticks in it. Your notes here have me thinking how do I get air in/out of the stainless and through the wood. Mine is a fusti with a screw top lid. It would be difficult to make Badmo style, and the wood cap would be at the top so I may need a wick to keep the wood hydrated (etholated??), or maybe I'll just try adopting your solution here to the fusti.

Make a hole in the stainless.

Stick a cork in it.

Geoff

Still thinking.

Make a biggish hole in the stainless lid. (Even three holes??!!)

Shape the top of your piece of 'aging wood' into a wooden 'rod' to be a tight fit. And to stick out a fair bit.
(the bottom to go close to the bottom of the jar or whatever; this could be variable.)
So the top of the wood is in the atmosphere, the bottom is in the spirit.
Not unlike a barrel where the inside is in contact with the spirit, the outside with the air; there will be transfer between the spirit and the outside air and how you do it will control somewhat how much.

Geoff

The Baker wrote: So the top of the wood is in the atmosphere, the bottom is in the spirit.
Not unlike a barrel where the inside is in contact with the spirit, the outside with the air; there will be transfer between the spirit and the outside air and how you do it will control somewhat how much.

Its like vaping for Angels. The jar will be bone dry in a matter of weeks.
Normal orientation of the pores in a barrel hold back evaporation. With a large oak wick, you'd end up with exposed pathways that would favour rapid evaporation.

I like the idea Baker, but Salty is scaring me. I'm not one to promote angel vaping. Plus, these stainless fustis are so pretty that I don't want to just go drilling holes into them.

I'm going to turn down a lid. Not sure if I'll try to add threads to it directly, or wedge a bit of cork in between. But based on Salty's comment, I'll make sure that it's not end grain between the interior and exterior. Now... if I make the lid form long grain, I could drill a 1/8" deep flat bottom hole with a forrestner bit and then shove a dowel into that, possibly hold it in place with a stainless screw if I don't get the press fit right. That would allow the spirit wick, but dump it into the long grain of the lit.

If instead of a dowel, I cut a sheet and attach that to the lid with a similar shallow fit mortise and tenon style, and mortise it cross grain to the lid, I should produce a wick that wets the whole of the lid, and lets the lid pull the liquid throughout it via the longitudinal grain, but then not let it easily penetrate to the atmosphere.

Here, I've made a little .ppt image of what I'm thinking of.

Irishgnome, those pics remind me of some I saw here a while back with a full stave in a corny keg. The exposed end had collected some crystalized "growth" that was reported to smell like toasted marshmellows. I theorized it was just concentrating barrel extractives on the end of the "wick" as they were dissolved from the interior and left behind as the spirits evaporated (evaporated into the corny, it was a closed system so presumably no real angels share).

Anyway, if youve been doing similar for a while and its just the lids that are new I wonder if you've ever seen any build up of residues on your exposed "wicks"?

Detroit

Salty makes a good point, but if you make the lid the right way you can avoid mass evaporation.
Barrels are all made with quarter sawn oak.
The orientation of the pores is key.
What’s the diameter of your lid?

If the wood that is submerged into your spirit has the grain running horizontal, you should have minimal loss.
Hope that makes sense.

Zapata

No crystals on my submerged wood, but I have had crystals on my barres.
They taste like super oak bourbon.

Cheers
Irish.

Move the jars in and out of the freezer will help pull the alcohol in and out of the wood.

You got it sunshinner!

My schedule is usually two to three days in the freezer, then two to three days in my shed.

Winter I do two to three in my garage, then two to three on my register.

Speeds up the process quickly.

The plan is to keep my aging spirits on wood like this for a year. Some make it, some don’t.

Cheers!

SaltyStaves wrote:

The Baker wrote: So the top of the wood is in the atmosphere, the bottom is in the spirit.
Not unlike a barrel where the inside is in contact with the spirit, the outside with the air; there will be transfer between the spirit and the outside air and how you do it will control somewhat how much.

Its like vaping for Angels. The jar will be bone dry in a matter of weeks.
Normal orientation of the pores in a barrel hold back evaporation. With a large oak wick, you'd end up with exposed pathways that would favour rapid evaporation.

Thanks, Salty, hadn't thought of that.
Just a thought, suppose you CAPPED the top of the oak wood. A little stainless lid??
The pores would not be open to the air, evaporation would have to be through the 'side' of the wood....
Or even if the entire piece of oak were cut SIDEWAYS, with the pores going ACROSS like they would in a barrel??

Wouldn't be much trouble to try out.

Geoff