Adding Salt to the Mash

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Captain Pappy
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Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by Captain Pappy »

While reading the website section on "Distillation" page "Using Salt in Distillation, I read a comment which I am pasting here:
make sure you use ordinary non-iodized salt not iodized. Virtually all salt sold in NZ in containers for domestic consumption is iodized. Also be aware that salt is sodium chloride and that chlorides attack stainless steel and can bad pit it. It can also and will generally shorten your element life.
So full disclaimer, I am new to distilling. I haven't even run my first run yet, but I know something (quite a bit actually) about this topic of metals and salt(electrolyte) interaction because I am a sailor and licensed sea captain.

The process that causes salt or any electrolyte to attack metal is called galvanization. It is most often caused when two pieces of dissimilar metal are electrically connected and submerged in an electrolytic compound (salty water for instance). What happens is one of the metals becomes a cathode and another becomes an anode. Much like the way a battery works, (a basic battery is two plate of different metals submerged in acid (an electrolyte)) the anode will be stripped of electrons that travel through the salty water to the cathode creating an electrical current.

For this to happen you have to have two metals that are dissimilar. This is key to understand the next part.

If your still is getting pitted then it mean the metal is likely of poor quality or wasn't actually "stainless steel". Different parts of the still are dissimilar enough from other parts that this galvanization is allowed to occur. Where the pits are happening, the metal is giving up electrons the the parts of the still that are not pitting (it doesn't actually accumulate, it just ends up in solution) The metal that makes stainless steel truly stainless is chromium, yet for some reason there is a lot of "stainless" steel that doesn't include any chromium. You know how some stainless eating utensils are 18/10 stainless? Well this is cheap stainless, it's got iron and nickel but no chromium and that's why your knives pit after years of being washed in the dishwasher. It's a little better than the kind of stainless you get from home depot or lowes when you buy stainless screws, yet they still rust red rust and rot away just as fast as carbon steel, but without any of the benefits of being a hard steel. It damn junk and it really pisses me off.

Real stainless grades of 304 or 316 will not behave this way. 304 has no chromium, but the alloy has been mixed well. On sailboats we use this stuff above the waterline. 316 has chromium, but it's expensive stuff. It's used below the waterline...that means it's in ocean water (a lot saltier than your mash) pretty much it's entire lifetime. Seeing as how still boilers are not constantly submerged in seawater, there is no good goddamned reason for your stainless to pit unless it's cheap junk. Pitting means the metals were dissimilar, meaning it wasn't mixed to true homogeneity (it's the same no matter where you look).

It may be fine for people to have cheap for a while, but if you REALLY want a still that lasts a lifetime, and maybe a few lifetimes, it would be good to ensure that you are buying REAL stainless steel to build your boilers. Mirror finish doesn't mean anything, that just means it was polished.

I am not sure how to tell you how to verify what the steel is that's been used to make your still, but maybe asking where they source their steel from and asking that source would be a good start.

I hope this helps.
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DAD300
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by DAD300 »

Your not getting any response, probably because few to no one would add straight salt to a ferment.

However, we do add other things that are a salt or some compound of.

Sodium Bicarbonate, a salt compound is common as a Ph raising adjunct. Magnesium is a salt used as a nutrient. I think we don't fear them destroying a still, SS or copper because of the low percentage in solution.

I have never seen pitting in any 304 or 316 stainless in any still component I have used.

I have purposely caused surface pitting with acids, but knew I would be doing so.
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by Captain Pappy »

Hi Dad,
Thanks for the response. I wasn't really looking for a reaction. Just trying to add some more knowledge into the hobby/industry about something I happen to have some knowledge as someone who needs to know in order to keep the ocean from eating their ship. As you said, I would never suspect good 304 or 316 to pit in the conditions distillers would subject them to.

Thank you,
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Mikey-moo
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by Mikey-moo »

It's been a while since I was at school, but isn't galvanisation where you coat the steel in zinc to prevent the pitting, not the action of the salt water on the metal itself?
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fizzix
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by fizzix »

Long time since school for me, too, but I believe "The process that causes salt or any electrolyte to attack metal..." is Galvanic Corrosion.
Was that what you meant Cap'n?

And thanks Captain for the difference in 304 & 316 stainless. Whenever that's come up in passing trivia, no one ever had an answer. Now I know.
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by Sunshineer »

Nice post Capt. Thanks
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by Corsaire »

So I've read an interview with Alexandre Gabriel of Plantation rum on Cocktail wonk where he says they're experimenting with seawater. He claims it gives a unique taste.
I've read that lost spirits used to do that too for a whisky, since they say they have evidence some scots used to do so as well. He stopped using it since the seawater corroded his copper stills.

I'm interested in what flavors are created. I don't know if the saltiness comes over like a briny taste found in some mezcals or if the higher osmotic pressure forces the yeast to create some specific congeners.
The sea isn't that far off my place but unfortunately I won't be able to distill for a while to experiment myself.
A quick google search yielded no results. There was mention that croweater said something about scotch whisky and salt but I couldn't find it.
Anybody ever used salt water in a mash? Or find links to commercial rum and whisky with salt water?
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by The Baker »

Off topic but bakers on ships have used sea water to make bread.
Instead of (normally) using a fair quantity of salt with ordinary water.
The salt being needed not only for flavour but to help develop the gluten in the dough. (Without which the bread would not rise well).
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by Corsaire »

Thanks for that little gem. My brother in law is a bread baking fanatic. Wonder if he knows about this.
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by 8Ball »

I enjoyed reading your post. Well written and obviously meant to convey helpful information. I am certain that you will have much more value added narrative to contribute to HD. A belated welcome aboard to you.

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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by pope »

DAD300 wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:49 am Sodium Bicarbonate, a salt compound is common as a Ph raising adjunct.
DAD I've been reading lately about pH adjusting and understood calcium and/or potassium salts/hydroxides > sodium for buffering ferment. Is there a value to sodium addition?
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by Expat »

pope wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:22 pm
DAD300 wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:49 am Sodium Bicarbonate, a salt compound is common as a Ph raising adjunct.
DAD I've been reading lately about pH adjusting and understood calcium and/or potassium salts/hydroxides > sodium for buffering ferment. Is there a value to sodium addition?
No, sodium salts are not of any value to a ferment; sodium bicarbonate is problematic because yeast don't like salt and the more bicarb you add the more sodium builds up.
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by pope »

KK that's what I thought.
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by cayars »

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the idea fully without some experimentation.

Salt has been used for a long time in fermenting vegetables. It helps to draw liquids out of cells via osmosis. I've read that a small amount of salt in your ferment helps create an initial environment in which primarily lactobacillus thrives, giving it time to rapidly take over, crowd out other bacteria, and eventually produce enough lactic acid to prevent other salt-tolerant cultures from growing.

Many brewers add salt into beer and say it helps flavors pop, rounds out rough edges, and adds depth. Some do this pre fermentation and others post fermentation. It's used sparingly and not enough for the "salt taste" to come through.

Salt will definitely raise the boiling point of water above 212F at sea level which could possibly help separation during distillation.

I've also read adding salt limits booze-causing yeasts; so it may not be ideal for higher ABV alcohol production.

Likely probably not a good idea unless done at very low percentage (ie 1%) but there could be something to it. The lacto could be a good thing. The additional lactic acid produced could be very good or very bad depending on what's being made. Raising the boiler point of water would likely be a good thing that could help with separation.

So I'm a skeptic, but not willing to fully rule it out yet. :)
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by DAD300 »

I don't think the sodium is great, it's just the easiest thing you're likely to already have at home. It's incredibly fast fix for a diving Ph.

Calcium Carbonate is the least disruptive to the yeast/fermentation process.

Calcium Hydroxide is a good buffer while mixing a ferment but harder to handle. And a little dangerous.

I don't think there is anything purer or easier than marble. Marble rock, lime stone, in a container hanging in the ferment seems to be just so damn easy that people won't even try it. Decorative garden rocks, $3usd for a 50 lb bag. One bag lasts me a year doing 170 gallon ferments. Self regulating, easily cleaned, it's automagic!
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by still_stirrin »

DAD300 wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:36 am...Marble rock, lime stone, in a container hanging in the ferment seems to be just so damn easy that people won't even try it....Self regulating, easily cleaned, it's automagic!
Hey DAD,

Can you show us a picture of the “hangy in thing” you put the rocks into and dangle into your fermentation tanks? It might spur some ideas here (food for thought) for the hobbiests.

Thanks.
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by DAD300 »

"Build and quality is very demanding!," he says jokingly.
DSC01215.JPG
White marble is primarily mineral calcite (CaCO3)

That bottle was half full, ~1 to 1.5 lb, at start of a 170 gallon ferment.

Pick you favorite food safe quart bottle. I chose a lemon juice bottle. I carefully placed holes 3/8" with large new soldering iron, and one at the top large enough to get the decorative marble rocks in.

As the ferment finishes, I pull the bottles out and let the Ph drop on purpose to stave off infections. Wash the remaining rocks in bottle, add rocks and drop in next ferment.

It doesn't matter the size of ferment or bottle as the ferment will only eat enough rock to adjust Ph. This will run Ph between 4.5 and 5.0 no matter how long exposed.

Seriously, it is just too simple.
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Re: Adding Salt to the Mash

Post by Mikey-moo »

Now that.... that I like.
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