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Well there has been a lot of fermenting activity going on here at the forum so I thought I would jump in with a nice grain mash sort of recipe I make. Had all the ingredients so what else is there to do when it's raining outside. You guessed it make a mash'.
I got out my new home made 45 gallon mash tun with a nice false bottom and brought 30 gallons of water up to a boil and added 20 pounds of steam rolled corn and cooked it for a few hours adding HTL enzymes at 185. At 180 degrees I added 20 pounds of white wheat, triple milled, into the pot and cooked it for another 90 minuets. At 153 degrees I added 20 pounds of milled briess pilsner malt and my GL enzymes just for insurance. This brought it down to 149 and a PH of 5.8. After a couple of hours it was at 16 brix so I opened up the bottom drain and started filling the fermenter. When the flow was down to drips I added more warm water to it to completely drain the sweet sugars out then squeezed the grains for every last drop. Added a gallon of molasses and cool water to get my brix at 16.5. Now I am waiting for it to cool down to yeast temperature and trying to decide what yeast I am going to use. It is colder here right now , may go with safale us-05. Probably going to do 2 of these batches to get enough good spirit to fill my new to me, once used 7 gallon bourbon barrel. Guarantee it is some fine drinking after about a year of two of aging.

Sounds very interesting

corene1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:23 pm Added a gallon of molasses

What molasses did you use ? ?

Mars

Grandmas fancy molasses, it was on sale for $12 dollars a gallon. It also ferments really well.

Hi! This is really an interesting mash. Could you detail a bit more regarding the cooking temps prior to the enzyme additions, especially the cooking temp after adding the wheat - I'm thinking the temps go up for cooking and then cooled down for enzyme additions(??) Also, is your mash cooker electric?
Betcha this recipe is going to be very very good

Acrylic wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:40 pm Hi! This is really an interesting mash. Could you detail a bit more regarding the cooking temps prior to the enzyme additions, especially the cooking temp after adding the wheat - I'm thinking the temps go up for cooking and then cooled down for enzyme additions(??) Also, is your mash cooker electric?
Betcha this recipe is going to be very very good

Corn takes more cooking time than the wheat and wheat can be done at a cooler temperature. So total water used is 30 gallons total grain bill is 60 pounds total. The water is brought up to boiling , 212 degrees and the corn is added. It is much more manageable having only 20 pounds of corn in the total volume of water. You don't get that typical porridge that a 100% corn mash gives you.
SebStar HTL enzyme is added at below 185 degrees to start conversion of the starches in the corn. I let that work for about 30 minuets then add the white wheat and let it cook. Adding the wheat brings the temp down to about 170 so I cook that until it gets down to 153 to 156 degrees. Remember I am constantly stirring for about 5 minutes every 15 minuets with a paddle mounted to a drill. This really helps break up the grains and exposes the starch.
Adding the malted barley at 156 or so will drop the temp of the mash down to 148 , my prefered mashing temperature. If it is a little warm I will cool it with some fresh cool water. In this case it came out at 150.5 so I added 1 gallon of cool water bringing it to 148.5. I also added the Seb Star GL at this time just for a little insurance. The malted barley was a bit old and I wanted everything to convert well. I stir this occasionally with the mixer but wrap the mash tun to retain as much heat as I can until conversion is done. I was shooting for about 15 brix. Then I drain off the beer and squeeze the remaining grains putting the wort in the fermenter. I lost about 5 gallons of water to the grain . I then added the molasses to the grain along with a couple of gallons of water bring my finished wort to 17 brix funny thing is that while cooling from 130 degrees to 85 degrees the enzymes kept working and added another .5 brix to the final reading. I never have to re heat the mash I just use the residual heat in the mash to start cooking the next grain addition s no chance of scorching the mash.
I have done this mash before but have never had a nice barrel to age it in. Typically I use oak sticks in a 1/2 gallon jar for aging. It is quite good white as well as oak aged. Minimum aging time is about a year, but 2 years makes it really good.
I use a gas fired boiler for my mash tun as well. Having probes in the mash tun would be problematic, Probably get beat up by the mixer when stirring.

i think i can smell this cook from here
what art
i need to apprentice

corene1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:23 pm Well there has been a lot of fermenting activity going on here at the forum so I thought I would jump in with a nice grain mash sort of recipe I make. Had all the ingredients so what else is there to do when it's raining outside. You guessed it make a mash'.
I got out my new home made 45 gallon boiler with a nice false bottom and brought 30 gallons of water up to a boil and added 20 pounds of steam rolled corn and cooked it for a few hours adding HTL enzymes at 185. At 180 degrees I added 20 pounds of white wheat, triple milled, into the pot and cooked it for another 90 minuets. At 153 degrees I added 20 pounds of milled briess pilsner malt and my GL enzymes just for insurance. This brought it down to 149 and a PH of 5.8. After a couple of hours it was at 16 brix so I opened up the bottom drain and started filling the fermenter. When the flow was down to drips I added more warm water to it to completely drain the sweet sugars out then squeezed the grains for every last drop. Added a gallon of molasses and cool water to get my brix at 16.5. Now I am waiting for it to cool down to yeast temperature and trying to decide what yeast I am going to use. It is colder here right now , may go with safale us-05. Probably going to do 2 of these batches to get enough good spirit to fill my new to me, once used 7 gallon bourbon barrel. Guarantee it is some fine drinking after about a year of two of aging.

Sounds like a nice recipe. If you don't mind I'll make a couple of suggestions you can try. Add the grains beside corn at 170 vs 180 so you won't get as much protein release (which you don't want) and tannin leach from the husks which will make a cleaner flavor. This helps get rid of the "musky" flavors that develop when aged.

The other things is the 5.8 pH is really a bit high for GL. Optimal range is pH range of 2.8 – 5.5 (check spec sheet). Slightly less than 5.0 is ideal for beta (malted grains) or GL enzymes. The lower pH also has other good qualities as well.

45 gallons is a really nice size boiler! How do you heat it? What did you make it from if you don't mind me asking?

Thank you for the detailed recipe! The 45 g mash tun is interesting. Best I can do is the 55L keggle also gas heated, good only for 10 gallon, and yes, temp probes get in the way. Proper PH is always a little tough to anticipate but pays off and it is interesting to hear that proper PH also affects a distilled product.

Recipe sounds delicious.
I could almost taste the distillate as I was reading.

I too would like to hear more about this mash tun.
Mind posting pics?

Cayars, thanks for the info. I just checked the SebStar site and this is what it said." Whole corn or grain liquefaction at pH 5.8 and 80 - 85oC" So that is what I do. I could try some other PH ranges but this has worked well for me. For the wheat , yes 170 works much better for cooking wheat but I put the grain in at 180 , actually 179 and the temp of the mash drops to 170, in this case 171. It is amazing how much temperature drop 20 pounds of cold grain can cause.
As far as the mash tun, it is a pretty simple build. I got a piece of remnant 16 ga. stainless steel from the steel supplier down the street and had my friend roll it into a cylinder. I went to the shop and cut a nice 14 gauge bottom for it and welded it up. I added a stainless ring around the top for a smooth radius and added handles as well. I welded a 1 inch NPT 1/2 collar on the side for a drain. I made the false bottom out of a piece of 16 ga. perforated stainless sheet . It comes pre punched with 3/32 inch holes and put 3/8 by 2 inch long studs on it for keeping a 2 inch gap between it and the bottom of the tun. Also put a lifting ring on it for getting it out. It works well, I can strain the mash easily and no messes from trying to do a mash in a small cooking pot.
Checked the mash today and it is fermenting happily, and such a nice fragrance in my little stilling shed. This is going to be a good batch!
I haven;t figured out how to post pictures on the new set up here so no pics. I am thinking you have to have an alternate photo site to host the pictures to HD forum. Oh, and it is gas fired.

Corene1 go to post reply just below the Quick Reply and it should be the same as the old set up as before for your pictures.

Bushman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:27 pm Corene1 go to post reply just below the Quick Reply and it should be the same as the old set up as before for your pictures.

Thanks Bushman, I will give it a try.

Certainly is not fancy but it works well. it is 24 inches by 24 inches . The burner is built into the stand so no weight is on it. I use the bigger propane bottles and a acetylene regulator to manage pressure so the heat is very controllable.

corene1 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:46 pm Cayars, thanks for the info. I just checked the SebStar site and this is what it said." Whole corn or grain liquefaction at pH 5.8 and 80 - 85oC" So that is what I do. I could try some other PH ranges but this has worked well for me. For the wheat , yes 170 works much better for cooking wheat but I put the grain in at 180 , actually 179 and the temp of the mash drops to 170, in this case 171. It is amazing how much temperature drop 20 pounds of cold grain can cause.

Corene1, I wasn't talking about SebStar HTL, but was talking about the pH range for the SEBamyl-GL (GlucoAmylase) which I think is what you were also using.
"When used to saccharify starch, the optimum pH range is pH 2.8 - 5.5. pH inactivation occurs at a pH below pH 2.5 or above pH 5.5
SEBamyl GL is stable over a temperature range of 30 – 65C."
SEBamyl-GL: https://enzymash.biz/download/sebamylgl.pdf

SEBstar HTL: https://enzymash.biz/download/sebstarhtl.pdf
"When used to liquefy cereal grain starch, the optimum pH pH 5.6 – 6.5.
SEBstar HTL has a temperature range of 50 – 90C. For liquefaction hold times longer than 30 minutes, the optimum temperature is 80 – 85C. Temperature inactivation begins to occur at or above 95C and pH 6.5. SEBstar HTL can be completely inactivated in 5 minutes at pH 4.0 and 95C."

The HTL and GL products use a different pH range, so for optimal results need to adjust the pH range during the mash.

It's the same for malted barley as well with it's beta vs gluco. To lower the pH without using chemicals backset can be used (if you have it) at this point to lower the pH. When using malted barley and wanting to get the most beta enzymes from it I lower pH via backset to 4.9 before adding the remaining malted barley.

corene1 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:58 pm Certainly is not fancy but it works well. it is 24 inches by 24 inches . The burner is built into the stand so no weight is on it. I use the bigger propane bottles and a acetylene regulator to manage pressure so the heat is very controllable.
DSC00946.JPG

That's quite a nice setup and the perfect size to get the job done! I'm jealous. LOL

cayars wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:03 pm

corene1 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:58 pm Certainly is not fancy but it works well. it is 24 inches by 24 inches . The burner is built into the stand so no weight is on it. I use the bigger propane bottles and a acetylene regulator to manage pressure so the heat is very controllable.
DSC00946.JPG

That's quite a nice setup and the perfect size to get the job done! I'm jealous. LOL

Thank you. Also thanks for the Seb gl information. I will keep a better track on ph next time. I have also noted that when I use malted grains for conversion the ph drops a bit after the malted grains have been added. If I ever do a pure enzyme mash I will definitely keep this in mind.

I thought Sebstar GL wasnt for sacharification, but was a gluconase used to break glucose down into smaller sugars after sacharification and during the ferment.

Saccharification is the complete degradation of starch to simpler sugars such as glucose, maltose, maltotriose, and to some extent, dextrins.

You don't need alpha, beta or gluco to turn the grains into starch. That's done by heat and time. You do need the enzymes for saccharification or breaking them down into sugars.

Make sense?

SEBamyl GL is used in the starch industry to produce glucose from liquefied starch. It is used in the distillery and fuel-alcohol industries for saccharification. The more nerdy explanation from their literature is: "SEBamyl-GL is considered an exo-alpha-amylase, glucoamylase or amyloglucosidase enzyme. It acts to hydrolyze the alpha-D-1,4-glycosidic bonds on the non-reducing end of liquefied starch. In addition, SEBamy-GL has side alpha-D-1,6 glycosidic activity to increase hydrolysis of starch and amylopectin branch points. The prolonged action of SEBamyl-GL produces large amounts of glucose."

I always though sacharification was when starches are turned into mor complex sugars, like sucrose.

I though the next step, in which long chain sugars are broken down into simpler sugars was something else entirely. hydrolization.

There are different names for the breakdown/processes that take place, but just think of saccharification as the overall process of converting starches to simple sugars. That will usually also cover turning complex sugars into simpler sugars as well.

Maybe these two pages help. Hopefully they don't add confusion.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/Do5AiUH8r0/
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how ... ation-rest

Well it's Wednesday evening. Fermenter is not bubbling anymore so I checked it and it is at .996 at 81 degrees. I unwrapped it and took the warming pad off. I use a 24 by 48 inch seed starting mat with temp control for keeping the barrel warm. I will let it cold crash till Friday and strip it Saturday. Has anyone else noticed a faster ferment to finish when fermenting off the grains?

corene1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:30 pm Has anyone else noticed a faster ferment to finish when fermenting off the grains?

It's rather fast done with US-05. But the salesmen say SafAle S-33 is the champion. Would you mind to share your experience (if any) of using S-33 for allgrains and pure malts? Wouldn't we face the loss of aromatics by taking the full swing of speed?

VLAGAVULVIN wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:57 pm

corene1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:30 pm Has anyone else noticed a faster ferment to finish when fermenting off the grains?

It's rather fast done with US-05. But the salesmen say SafAle S-33 is the champion. Would you mind to share your experience (if any) of using S-33 for allgrains and pure malts? Wouldn't we face the loss of aromatics by taking the full swing of speed?

I wound up using Red Star distillers yeast on this ferment. I have no experience with S-33

corene1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:10 pm I wound up using Red Star distillers yeast on this ferment. I have no experience with S-33

Got it... thanks for yr. reply / will lurk more ab. that S-33 strain...

And good luck with runs there now!

corene1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:30 pm Has anyone else noticed a faster ferment to finish when fermenting off the grains?

I'm guessing the yeast keep finding something to nibble on when fermenting on the grain
Your Rumsky sounds like it will make a good drop. Too bad there isn't anything like it in the liquor store
On a side note, I think off the grain ferments make a better whiskey

shadylane wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:40 pm On a side note, I think off the grain ferments make a better whiskey

... and they make our hobby harder, damn... waiting (by cargo co.) for my malt concentrate, specifically temp-paused for whiskeys and not for beer

corene1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:30 pm Has anyone else noticed a faster ferment to finish when fermenting off the grains?

Probably, but the real "speed increase" I see is that it's much easier/faster to clear and load into the boiler without the grains. It's also much easier to float a hydrometer or get samples to check SG as well without the grains in there.

I prefer the taste off grain as well.

shadylane wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:40 pm

corene1 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:30 pm Has anyone else noticed a faster ferment to finish when fermenting off the grains?

I'm guessing the yeast keep finding something to nibble on when fermenting on the grain
Your Rumsky sounds like it will make a good drop. Too bad there isn't anything like it in the liquor store
On a side note, I think off the grain ferments make a better whiskey

Las Vegas distillery has it in both white and aged in a barrel versions.That is where I got the idea from. George and Sid shared the basics with me a few years ago , sadly George passed last November,but gave me a once used 7 gallon black swan barrel and that is the one I am using to age these batches in when they are finished. I have only made small batches so far as test ferments I think this will be the last variation. The beer is tasting quite good and hoping for a nice spirit.

Stripped the mash today. Loaded 14 gallons in the boiler and 4 in the thumper, saved 4 for the spirit run. Pulled off right at 3 gallons of low wines at 50% ABV. I will do this same mash again strip it the same way and that will leave me 8 gallons of wort to mix with the low wines to do a slow spirit run running the thumper . Hopefully that will give me enough to fill my barrel.