How do You run Cold and Slow?

[Runt]

Everyone says Cold and Slow is the way to go, or makes the best liquor but, everyone is also trying to run it as fast as
possible.
Does cold and slow refer to only the condenser or is there more to it other than maintaining Your still temp?
How do You run Cold and Slow?
How do You know how fast/hot You can run it?

[NZChris]

Your "everyone" doesn't include me , so I can't help you. Try using the search functions.

[Truckinbutch]

Your "everyone" doesn't include me , so I can't help you. Try using the search functions.

Good advice , that .

[Yummyrum]

Running hard and fast is usually done on the stripping run . Its where you do the first distillation to get the alcohol out if the wash .

The second distillation is called the spirit run . This is where you run the stripped alcohol you got from the first run and re-run it . But this time you run it slow . So where as on the stripping run it may have been pissing out the spout , this time you want it coming out very slowly .
Now the reason for this is that when you run more slowly , the still will be better able to seperate out the good stuff from the nasty stuff that either gives you a headache or simply tastes like shit .
It is up to you to collect the output in lots of little jars and see what tastes crap and whats nice . Thats the bit called making the cuts .

If you do a really fast spirit run , the still will smear all the bits together making it hard for you to work it out .

Now how slow you run will depend on what sort of still you have , and how big the boiler charge is .

This is just the tip of the iceburg ..... I’ll leave it to our good members to give you the fine detail .

[NZChris]

Running hard and fast is usually done on the stripping run . Its where you do the first distillation to get the alcohol out if the wash .

The second distillation is called the spirit run . This is where you run the stripped alcohol you got from the first run and re-run it . But this time you run it slow . So where as on the stripping run it may have been pissing out the spout , this time you want it coming out very slowly .

Well, sort of, yes, no, maybe, if you say so, but not in my shed depending on what I'm making. What do you want to make, Runt?

I mostly start my research with what I want to make, then work backwards though the processes and equipment needed to get the results I want, which is what you are doing, so you are off to a good start. Keep doing that, but don't expect to be spoon fed by the interweb's finest just coz you asked.

[OtisT]

Hi Runt. I think you need to start with some reading. On the forum page scroll to the very bottom, lower left, and check out all the links in the “Required reading” section. One thing it’s gonna ask you to do is post an introduction. Get that done and you’ll get more help. Otis

[Yummyrum]

Hi Runt. I think you need to start with some reading. ........ One thing it’s gonna ask you to do is post an introduction. Get that done and you’ll get more help. Otis

Well shit . Nice pickup Otis .

Hey Runt , I’m not sure how you slipped through the net back in 2012 , but thankfully you don’t seem to be a spammer .

Mind you , you have had at least 7 years to do some reading .Maybe its time now .

[Runt]

Thanks for All Your replies!
Ok Otis, I posted an introduction in the welcome center subject "Hello, I'm Runt, and this im my introduction."

I'm not new to distilling just want to refine my art. I was told when You stop learning, go ahead and die. So I'm trying to further my education and adjust my way of thinking when necessary threw reading and weeding out the bad info.

NZChris, Truckinbutch, Otis, I have searched for this subject and if You know of some good post pass them along I would love to read them.

NZChris, How do You get good liquor and not run cold and slow?

I want to make liquor, all kinds eventually. I'm not asking about a specific liquor or recipe just each persons personal opinion on what they considered Cold and Slow?
I have been taking 6-8 hours a run from plugging in to unplugging. I think that is slow but wonder if I can speed it up or should stay that slow. I know my condenser is cold, it has condensation on it.

Thanks again, Runt

[NZChris]

I've never heard 'cold and slow' used before. AFAIK the only way to run cold is under vacuum. Maybe you are getting your terminology from someone who doesn't know much more about distilling than you do?

[pope]

Low & Slow maybe? Like low heat input? Slow and Steady is an adage that can help make better liquor too.

[navan4]

Well I always run on the slow side my reflux column, but I will make sure I have a good flow, not want to waste time needlessly, just for boasting.
My pot still I just let it go at 1500W for the first 30 minutes (to avoid scorching) then crank her to 2000W until the end (I avoid 2400W for scorching again) satisfying results even if cheap equipment. But I avoid going deep in tails with reflux column and go to about 15% ABV with pot still for re-using in next wash.

[OtisT]

I do believe that running too fast on a spirit run can hurt your results, where running slower can help improve separation of a spirit and improve the quality. It’s not a matter of temperature. It’s a matter of the amount of power you are applying. A similar way to phrase this may be Low and Slow. Low for low power. slow because with less power you will produce product at a a slower rate. (Pot still concepts)

You can’t change the temp at which your charge boils at or the temperature of the vapor. (Ignoring pressure here for simplicity)
Applying more power/steam/flame will create more vapor at that same temperature. Less power creates less vapor.

If you distill with too much power, separation does not happen as well. To little power and a spirit run can take too long for your liking. The trick is finding the right speed for your specific system to get descent separation while not going so slow you get pissed off. With a little info about your system and/or picture, someone may be able to give you a ballpark in terms of power to apply for various types of spirits/runs. You can adjust from there.

One bit of advice I have for you related to run speed is that after you pull foreshots and set your desired run speed, is that you do the entire run at a consistent power level until you understand more about cuts. I find that adjusting power during a run can drastically change the profile of spirits coming off of the still at that time. Ie it smells/tastes one way before the power change, and it smells/tastes different afterward. If you are learning cuts the Kiwi way (as recommended in a post above) I find it helpful when making cuts to have a smooth progression of smells and tastes from one jar to the next. The name of that thread that teaches a method for cuts is “A guide to cuts (pot still)” by kiwistiller.

Otis

[Saltbush Bill]

The second distillation is called the spirit run . This is where you run the stripped alcohol you got from the first run and re-run it . But this time you run it slow .

I do believe that running too fast on a spirit run can hurt your results, where running slower can help improve separation of a spirit and improve the quality.

Well, sort of, yes, no, maybe, if you say so, but not in my shed depending on what I'm making

Chris your reluctance to run more slowly may well be the reason you experience poor results when you have tried to recycle heads and tails "feints" with you washes or low wines.
A potty run too fast is going to smear to hell and back. If you want speed a plated column might suit better.

[NZChris]

Chris your reluctance to run more slowly may well be the reason you experience poor results when you have tried to recycle heads and tails "feints" with you washes or low wines.
A potty run too fast is going to smear to hell and back. If you want speed a plated column might suit better.

The speed I run at depends on the end result I want. I often take heads and foreshots off slow, but once they are gone the speed depends on how much smearing I want for the product I'm making plus, for many products, I don't increase the Watts during the spirit run until I know the tails have arrived, so the speed has dropped quite a bit when the jars for finding the tails cut are being filled.

The way I see it, to get the same sized flavored wash through a plater, I'd have to do three or four sets of spirit runs and cuts, or quadruple the size of the boiler. What would you recommend?

[Runt]

Thanks always for Your replies:
I want to start by saying I've never had a bad finished product or complaints. I have ran batches more times than i had planned. I want to improve on the good liquor I am currently making.

Navan4 so, What stage are You at in Your run when you crank it up? heads, hearts, tails or transitioning from which to which?

Otis You get it and understand what I'm saying. You said "applying more power/steam/flame will create more vapor at that same temperature." But if I apply more power, won't my temp rise? "To little power and a spirit run can take too long for your liking." That is where I'm at. It takes me 6-8 hours from power on till power off. My setup is in my intro and if you want to know more, ask and I'll be glad to answer as much as I can/know. Yes "A guide to cuts (pot still)” by kiwistiller is How I learned my cuts back in 2012. I have always set the power once it started to tinkle and left it alone well into the tails. I'm looking to learn more about make the power changes. When, how much and what to expect? You so Kool to share Your knowledge in terms I understand.

Saltbush Bill It takes me 6-8 hours from power on till power off. So You think I need to slow down more?

Thanks again, Runt
This is so kool! I'm yeast in a mash just eatin this up.

[StillerBoy]

I'm looking to learn more about make the power changes.

Read through this thread, and it will provide you a whole new outlook on to run for product finished, from start to finish..
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76333

Mars

[OtisT]

......
I want to start by saying I've never had a bad finished product or complaints.

You are so lucky. Along with making some good stuff, I’ve made my share of crap over the years. I’m getting better though. - Otis
......
You said "applying more power/steam/flame will create more vapor at that same temperature." But if I apply more power, won't my temp rise?

As a rule, a mixture of liquid will boil at the temperature it wants to boil at, regardless of the amount of power applied. More power = more vapor, not a higher temp. For distillation purposes the ABV of your charge in the boiler dictates what this boil point is. Your charge of beer/ferment is mainly a mixture of water and alcohols (mostly ethanol, but other alcohols too). A higher ABV mixture boils at a lower temp than a lower ABV mixture. So on a normal pot run, you get the lowest temps at the start of the run when you have the highest ABV and temperature gradually increases as alcohol is boiled away. Said another way: boil temp is inversely proportional to the ABV of your charge.

Some exceptions to the rule. Boil temp may rise because of more power, but only slightly. More power creates more vapor in the same period of time, and making more vapor fast can slightly increase pressure in the boiler. A liquid’s boiling point will increase with increased pressure. This is only a slight increase, as the pressure increase is slight to negligible on a pot still.

The thumper adds a bit of pressure, increasing your boil temp, but this would be the same pressure increase regardless of power level. A higher volume level in your thumper increases pressure more than a lower level. Again, this is all consistent regardless of the power level.

A second reaction to increasing power is to increase smearing. Smearing is the picking up of more molecules that normally would only boil off at a higher temp, like more water and more fusel oils. So I believe this also causes a slight increase in temp. I don’t think either will impact temp much. - Otis

........
"To little power and a spirit run can take too long for your liking." That is where I'm at. It takes me 6-8 hours from power on till power off. My setup is in my intro and if you want to know more, ask and I'll be glad to answer as much as I can/know.

So is your boiler powered with an internal element or hot plate? My first boiler was a 10 gallon bayou classic pan on a 1500W hot plate so I have lots of experience with a similar rig. If you use a hotplate, do you use a heat sync as well?

One thing you can do to run faster (if you want) is to insulate everything from the boiler to the thumper. You are loosing 100s of watts of power to the air without insulation. Less power=less vapor=slower production. A key to good insulation is to use closed cell material with no air leaks at the seams.

Other than that, i can’t think of much you can do to run any faster short of adding a second element to your main boiler (from a separate 110v circuit) - Otis

[cayars]

Chris your reluctance to run more slowly may well be the reason you experience poor results when you have tried to recycle heads and tails "feints" with you washes or low wines.
A potty run too fast is going to smear to hell and back. If you want speed a plated column might suit better.

The speed I run at depends on the end result I want. I often take heads and foreshots off slow, but once they are gone the speed depends on how much smearing I want for the product I'm making plus, for many products, I don't increase the Watts during the spirit run until I know the tails have arrived, so the speed has dropped quite a bit when the jars for finding the tails cut are being filled.

Something to think about. Let's say Jars 1-5 are heads and taken off slowly. Jars 16 to 20 are tails and taken off fast.
Process 1: Jars 6 to 15 are run medium speed and allowed to smear.
Process 2: Jars 6 to 15 are run slow and smearing is kept to a minimum

The "Hearts" jars of 6 to 15 will be different, taste different and have different esters even though you end up with the same volume and "center cut". Typically, the lower and slower the spirit run is done the more flavors that can be produced from maillard reactions to slightly different ester formations.

EDIT: The slower you run the more control you have over the fractions you get and there will be less smearing. The faster you run the more smearing you will get. That means you'll smear in early tails, some medium tails and even late tails into your hearts section if running fast. Slow it down and you will keep out more of the tails sections giving you cleaner hearts with less smearing. You can then more easily control your blend of jars.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Process 2: Jars 6 to 15 are run slow and smearing is kept to a minimum

Each heating of an alcohol-containing liquid gives us a few heads. Even if you heat neutral alcohol, you get the damn heads plus alcohol from the outlet. Do not get involved in ultra-long heating. Otherwise, you will get a lot of esters ... but with a headsy character. The separation ability of the still would be more helpful than timing in boiler.

more flavors that can be produced from maillard reactions to slightly different ester formations

I hope you meant the Fischer–Speier ones, doe... as for the Maillard's there are neither sugars nor amino acids in normal low wines.

[cayars]

I don't think you are understanding. Jars 1 to 5 have already been run slow in THIS run and have already removed as much of the foreshots and heads as possible. We are now talking about the next 10 jars and how speed FROM THAT POINT on to the start of tails.

Maillard reaction most certain takes place when distilling. There are almost always some sugars left in the wort. A 4 day vs 7 day vs 14 day ferment will leave different amounts of sugars. Also keep in mind that yeast doesn't "eat" all sugars and not all sugars are fementable. Not sure why you think amino acids are not present.

https://istillblog.com/2014/08/23/why-w ... t-heating/
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=36241&start=100

I think most people are familiar with fusel oils in their distillate. These higher alcohols are formed during the fermentation process and are considered as by-product of alcohol fermentation. They are produced by yeast during alcoholic fermentation, through the conversion of the branched chain amino acids present in the medium. A lot of esters present are caused by the presence of amino acids.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 1.10857811
https://www.intechopen.com/books/distil ... production
The Maillard Reaction: Chemistry, Biochemistry, and Implications By H. E. Nursten if you want to geek out on this type of thing.

EDIT: the speed difference has more affect on smearing than anything else that will change the taste. Slower means less smearing which means less tails make it into your hearts section, which allows you to have more control over blending.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

I don't think you are understanding.

I think I was graduated in general chemical technology (both processes and equipment) in my varcity over 22 years ago, sorry

Jars 1 to 5 have already been run slow in THIS run and have already removed as much of the foreshots and heads as possible.

And it's never enough, even if you use some super-tall bokakob, tuned as 1 drop per 2 seconds on its upper unit. That's why industrial columns have separate outlet lines for different fractions. But for our craft reasons, it doesn't matter...

We are now talking about the next 10 jars and how speed FROM THAT POINT on to the start of tails.

What does matter,,, is: if you heat it for hours you "cook" your spirits with some copper for hours. So, you get aldehydes time and again, and more, and again... and you have no separate outlet for them, alas... so, they easily turn into carboxylic acids, but you have no outlet for these acids, too... hell kitchen inside, try to get it.

Some HD-people got also used to drop sulphuric acid into this soup. And still they have higher alcohols in the pot, so... cumene, acetone, phenol — never heard about these yummies? Those guys read (NB: about industrial methods) enough to kill themselves, trying to launch these methods with just kegs&thumpers on the back yard... By the way, the same people are all out to tell me of the silicone's danger. Of course, Teflon is very useful and safe... cause DuPont had charged a lot to think so.

Maillard reaction most certain takes place when distilling. There are almost always some sugars left in the wort.

Of course: they left in the wort. Do you add some wort to your low wines before the spirit run, eh?..

As per the topic starter... he seems to have no idea where to go and what to wish. There are few guys on the HD to come and read the bickering like ours... and to tell us 5 years later — wow, look: I've finally made up my backyard thumper of shit and sticks and charged it with H2SO4 to get lotta esters.

R: responsibility.

And now imma read your spoonfeeding links... but not sure to coment them after, sorry again.

[cayars]

Again, you're missing the point (as well as off on your chemistry). We are not talking about REHEATING and creating MORE HEADS. Weren't not talking about taking off fractions at different ports, nor talking about industrial columns. We're talking about basic home distillation running a simple still that smears.

What ever could have been taking were, on JARs 1-5 and you ARE ALREADY in the run and now adjusting speed for jars 6 onward, not adding acids to the boiler or the other stuff you're talking about from left field.

The conversation was the difference in jars 6 to 15 and how speed changes the outcome of THOSE JARS.

You're talking about something way different then what was said about running JARS 6-15 at medium vs slow speed which was the point.

[OtisT]

Here we go again. To me, it seems this has gone too far off topic from the OP, and what he is asking for help with.

Otis

[pope]

I don't enjoy the 'bickering' but it does seem to bring out consideration-worthy differences of opinion. Very off-topic but Vlaga, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the use of H2SO4 in the Fischer-Speier esterification reaction, my understanding is that sulfuric acidification is commonly practiced in commercial distilleries. Maybe not all, but certainly some.

[cayars]

Just a note I edited two posts above with:
"EDIT: The slower you run the more control you have over the fractions you get and there will be less smearing. The faster you run the more smearing you will get. That means you'll smear in early tails, some medium tails and even late tails into your hearts section if running fast. Slow it down and you will keep out more of the tails sections giving you cleaner hearts with less smearing. You can then more easily control your blend of jars."

That is the point of running "slow" to avoid smearing and keep control over blending. Anything else in more incidental but this will be the biggest factor in flavors (smearing).

[Runt]

Thanks for your replies';

Otis That's very interesting and good to know. I have an internal element with a controller. How long did Your runs take with your hot plate?

I think the amount of power vs temp vs speed is the key. No reason for me to try to speed it up.

Thanks again, Runt

[OtisT]

Thanks for your replies';

Otis That's very interesting and good to know. I have an internal element with a controller. How long did Your runs take with your hot plate?

I think the amount of power vs temp vs speed is the key. No reason for me to try to speed it up.

Thanks again, Runt

It’s been a while, but the 8 hour timeframe seems to ring a bell for a spirit run end to end. If I come upon my old records, I’ll give you specifics.

My guess is that your current system is running about the same speed as mine did. In one way your system is more efficient. Your element is putting all 1500w into the boiler, while mine lost heat around the hotplate to boiler connection that can not be insulated (easily) so all 1500w did not get into my boiler. In one way my system was more efficient because my boiler was fully insulated on the sides and top so I had less power loss to the air from the boiler.

Otis

[Runt]

Thanks Otis, I am curious to compare info. To bad we can't compare liquors.

[Yummyrum]

One thing that tends to get forgotten in the low and slow mantra is the boiler charge size .
We constantly hear about running a thin pencil lead stream . Seems folk keep quoting that regardless of whether they are running a one gallon charge or a 30 gallon charge .

So think for a moment .
If you had a boiler charge the size of a Scottish whisky kettle ... maybe 2000gallons , how long would it take to run at a pencil lead size stream ?

Have you ever seen video’s of those stills run ? They are fully pissing out distillate like its coming out of a garden hose .
To distill a kettle full takes them a days work .

To run this hard , they have a huge amount of heat going into the boiler ..... but....it is proportional to the volume of boiler charge .

Imagine if you had a still with a 5 gallon charge with a gas burner under it and it took 8 hours to run .

Now imagine you had another one exactly the same . You run them together . 8 hours later you have distilled twice as much but you have also used twice as much gas to do it .

So the amount of gas ( heat) is proportional to the amount of charge , and the amount of produced . The time taken is the same .

My point is that yes there is an ideal speed at which to run the still that ensures good separation with minimal smearing , and that seems to be about 8 hrs per run . To achieve this , the amount of power ( heat) applied to the boiler will be proportional to how big the charge is .

The pencil lead stream is only appropriate at a certain boiler charge . In all other cases it will be bigger or smaller than this .

So if 8 hrs to do a run seems like a lot of time for little returns , you need to run a bigger charge with more power a d take off at a proportionally higher rate .

[Runt]

So, It's not that it takes to long, It's my pot is to small! That's weird in Colorado. lol