No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Metalking00
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

I use a small mash paddle and kinda scoop from the bottom. I also dont sanitize it, just rinse it off in the sink and set it aside until next time.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

elbono wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:45 pm when I was way out of the recommendations (low temps, whole kernel unground feed corn).
Are you finding that this yeast is much happier if kept at or close its optimum Temp?.....seems that way to me.
elbono wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:45 pm I wipe my stirring spoon off with a rag, set both on the lid of the container until the next stir change rag if it gets crusty.
This stuff has been close to bullet proof for me.
Pretty close to the same thing here.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Oceanwave »

Started a batch using about 20 kilos of rolled mixed grain which I ground much finer with my corona mill this weekend. This is the biggest batch I have tried. I am looking forward to seeing how it turns out. The last one was all corn and went well except for user errors.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:06 pm Are you finding that this yeast is much happier if kept at or close its optimum Temp?.....seems that way to me.
Not as much as I hoped. Its summer here now, the three ferments I posted about June 1 stayed where I wanted, about 31-33C. I stripped the all corn after about 9 days and I got lower product volume than I expected. It had more trub than usual too. The other two got stripped after 2 weeks, less trub, more product.

Last winter I struggled to keep ferment temps up, I could keep 26-28C and ran them after 2 weeks. Keeping the temps up didn't seem to speed that up much.

One surprise was the all rice, almost no trub, it didn't get the thin white layer on top and I got more product than I expected. After looking up carbohydrate content / kg for corn and rice it makes sense but I wasn't expecting it. Now I'm wondering if a heavier corn loading would work...

For now I'll be using rice a few times to see if it's consistently that way.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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Dancing4dan wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:04 am Two fermenters going with 10 kg corn meal and 2.5 kg oat flakes in approx 60 L water at 35 * C last evening. Ferment seems to be pretty happy.

Used hot water from the PC to add water to the fermenters. One fermenter had some hot Backset added at the end of a stripping run.

Did a spirit run and two 60L fermenters in 5 1/2 hours yesterday.

Compared to traditional methods this really saves time and effort.
Update on this.

Ferments finished a couple days ago. Thought a couple pictures were in order to show a Yellow Label “Yeast” result on corn meal and rolled oats.

Pulled BIAB today. HAND SQUEEZED ONLY that pile of corn.
IMG_1783.jpeg
IMG_1784.jpeg
First picture is the BIAB draining.

Second picture is what was left in the BIAB after had squeezed and the oats and corn that went into the fermenter. The oats in the photo are 0.33 kg more than the recipe above due to product change for this photo. The bag of oats in photo is 2.58 kg and the recipe used 2.5 kg.

I did two of these ferments at same time.

This was mashed at 35* c. 200 micron BIAB. Fermented on grain.

Will cold crash for a while and run this very good smelling wash.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dancing4dan »

This is after a few days in the cold room to settle the trub. 60 L ferment settling at around 17*c.
IMG_3931.jpeg
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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elbono wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:45 pm I'm sure it's possible to get bad infections but the only time I've had it happen is when I was way out of the recommendations (low temps, whole kernel unground feed corn).
I agree. The one possible infection came from feed corn I attempted to hydrolyze at higher temp and let it sit to cool off instead of dropping the temp with a wart chiller prior to pitching. Can’t blame Yellow Label for that.

It’s easy to second guess with this stuff and try to “improve” the process. It seems to easy to be true but it actually works as advertised. Follow the directions and it is EASY and it works well.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Dancing4dan wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:13 am Follow the directions and it is EASY and it works well.
That's exactly what I've found so far. :thumbup:
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Oceanwave »

My second try with it is still bubbling away, so I get to wait some more. I am looking forward to seeing how it turns out. The first try was okay, but I made some mistakes that resulted in less product than I could have gotten.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dancing4dan »

Oceanwave wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:36 pm My second try with it is still bubbling away, so I get to wait some more. I am looking forward to seeing how it turns out. The first try was okay, but I made some mistakes that resulted in less product than I could have gotten.
Let it ferment until it is not producing any bubbles. Not just through the air lock but with lid off and looking at the surface of the distillate.

It will start to settle When it’s done but give it one more stir and another day to make sure.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Oceanwave »

Dancing4dan wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:39 pm
Oceanwave wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:36 pm My second try with it is still bubbling away, so I get to wait some more. I am looking forward to seeing how it turns out. The first try was okay, but I made some mistakes that resulted in less product than I could have gotten.
Let it ferment until it is not producing any bubbles. Not just through the air lock but with lid off and looking at the surface of the distillate.

It will start to settle When it’s done but give it one more stir and another day to make sure.
No air lock on this. I have a lid on it, but until I work out a way to completely seal it with the aquarium heater in it, I can only put the lid over it. Last time I did a smaller batch and could put it into my fermentation chamber that is heated, but the bigger fermenter won't fit, so an aquarium heater is providing the heat. Yes, the plan is to let it stop bubbling when I look into it to check.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Kruegerfan »

Hi all,

I have recently joined the Angel yellow label club. I have my first all grain mash fermenting right now (Never done an all grain before), and it seems to be going ok. Was a little worried as I don't have any airlock activity, but I think that's due to the amount of headspace I have in my fermenter, and the airlock seems a tiny bit loose in the grommet.

Been stirring every day and fermenting at around 32 degrees. It's definitely working as mash has thinned out significantly and I can smell the alcohol.

Really simple mash to test the water so to speak. 16l of warm water, 4kg of lightly peated whisky malt, 100g of caramalt and 200g of malted oats.

On day 5 at the moment. Just eager to see how it turns out. Great read this thread is with all the different things people are trying with this yeast.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Kruegerfan wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:58 pm Was a little worried as I don't have any airlock activity, but I think that's due to the amount of headspace I have in my fermenter, and the airlock seems a tiny bit loose in the grommet.
The amount of head space will have SFA to do with it. The loose gromet or a leaky lid seal will be the problem........don't rely on an air lock to tell you if something is fermenting.
Rip the lid off.....stick your head in there and have a look around.......ya see tiny bubbles fizzing?
Or maybe big ones going bloop bloop bloop?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by CoogeeBoy »

Kruegerfan wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:58 pm Hi all,
......
Really simple mash to test the water so to speak. 16l of warm water, 4kg of lightly peated whisky malt, 100g of caramalt and 200g of malted oats.
My thoughts are, why use all malt/malted grains when you are using Yellow Label? Isn't the idea of using the malt is to access the enzymes to convert the starch to sugars? Ergo, you could use none malted grains, save a few dollars and/or buy more grain!
Taking a break while I get a new still completed....
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Imo it works more than one way cooge.......unmalted doesn't smell the way that malted does when it's freshly ground......I suspect it won't taste the same either.
Depends on what outcome your after I guess
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by CoogeeBoy »

Yes I can see that side too.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Kruegerfan »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:17 am
The amount of head space will have SFA to do with it. The loose gromet or a leaky lid seal will be the problem........don't rely on an air lock to tell you if something is fermenting.
Rip the lid off.....stick your head in there and have a look around.......ya see tiny bubbles fizzing?
Or maybe big ones going bloop bloop bloop?
Always some foam on top when I lift the lid off to stir, but yeah, definitely fizzing when stirred, and I can definitely smell the alcohol. Reckon it's a loose grommet
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Kruegerfan »

CoogeeBoy wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:16 am

My thoughts are, why use all malt/malted grains when you are using Yellow Label? Isn't the idea of using the malt is to access the enzymes to convert the starch to sugars? Ergo, you could use none malted grains, save a few dollars and/or buy more grain!
Only using the yellow label as I'm not confident with mashing. Trying to get a lightly peated malt whisky, hence the need for malted grains. Totally agree with Saltbush Bill. Unmalted grains do smell different and create a different taste. We Scots do love our malt whisky :D
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

I know this is the "no mash" thread, but id like to add what ive been doing for my last yellow label ferments. Since its been established that topping up with hot (but not boiling) water is beneficial, ive been filling the fermenters with 70c water to get some benefit from the malted grains without worrying about maximising mashing efficiency. My last few attempt of topping up with 70c water and giving a few stirs and letting it cool to pitching temp ended with an SG of around 1.050. There was no added effort over using water of any other temp, so why not. It got the conversion halfway there, and the yellow label finshed the second half. Fermentation was completed much sooner as well.

Not a new protocol, i know, but I think its worth keeping in mind when using this with malted grains.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Kruegerfan »

Metalking00 wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:54 am ive been filling the fermenters with 70c water to get some benefit from the malted grains without worrying about maximising mashing efficiency. My last few attempt of topping up with 70c water and giving a few stirs and letting it cool to pitching temp ended with an SG of around 1.050. There was no added effort over using water of any other temp, so why not. It got the conversion halfway there, and the yellow label finshed the second half. Fermentation was completed much sooner as well.

Not a new protocol, i know, but I think its worth keeping in mind when using this with malted grains.
Will defo try that on my next batch MetalKing. Cheers
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by kuraokami »

So would you guys say this would be where the thread is at
Grain
Add 70C water
Mix
Wait till pitch temp
Let it do it’s magic will some possible stirs in between?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Maybe read through the thread again.
Stirring isn't optional in the first days of the ferment.
Depending on what grain you use will dictate the temps involved.......but even that is optional, yellow lable will work without any pre cooking of grain if that's how you want to do it.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by robe »

Nice! I finally got some from Ali. The first try I got some ferrite inductutors, a long way from yeast. They made good on that and I got some nice fresh product for 24.00. Gug ho to give it a try. Heat or don't, hot or boiling? I'll give it a go depending on how I feel. Thanks everyone.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dancing4dan »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:17 am
Kruegerfan wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:58 pm Was a little worried as I don't have any airlock activity, but I think that's due to the amount of headspace I have in my fermenter, and the airlock seems a tiny bit loose in the grommet.
The amount of head space will have SFA to do with it. The loose gromet or a leaky lid seal will be the problem........don't rely on an air lock to tell you if something is fermenting.
Rip the lid off.....stick your head in there and have a look around.......ya see tiny bubbles fizzing?
Or maybe big ones going bloop bloop bloop?
I agree. another idea, I put my ear on the side of the fermenter. You can hear any fermenting if it’s happening.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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robe wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:40 pm Nice! I finally got some from Ali. The first try I got some ferrite inductutors, a long way from yeast. They made good on that and I got some nice fresh product for 24.00. Gug ho to give it a try. Heat or don't, hot or boiling? I'll give it a go depending on how I feel. Thanks everyone.
35* C. Pretty straight forward.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by The Baker »

I agree. another idea, I put my ear on the side of the fermenter. You can hear any fermenting if it’s happening.

Stethoscope??

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by bluc »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:44 pm Maybe read through the thread again.
Stirring isn't optional in the first days of the ferment.
Depending on what grain you use will dictate the temps involved.......but even that is optional, yellow lable will work without any pre cooking of grain if that's how you want to do it.
I have found stirring to be biggest variable.
I dont heat.
But if I dont stir twice day for 3weeks. I can lose up to a third of hearts...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Evil_Dark »

I've started a mainly corn mash with Y-L-A-Y, but I have a decent amount of matled rye laying around...
What about a 100% rye?
What would be the water to grain ratio and better going with 68C water or 32C ? Not sure if the flavor may change depending on the initial water temp... But the yield can be increased a bit if I use hotter water temp so the natural enzymes can start their work?

Anyone made a 100% rye with Y-L-A-Y ?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

Evil_Dark wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:12 pm I've started a mainly corn mash with Y-L-A-Y, but I have a decent amount of matled rye laying around...
What about a 100% rye?
What would be the water to grain ratio and better going with 68C water or 32C ? Not sure if the flavor may change depending on the initial water temp... But the yield can be increased a bit if I use hotter water temp so the natural enzymes can start their work?

Anyone made a 100% rye with Y-L-A-Y ?
I wouldn't go above 105F, as you might denature these enzymes (I have no data to prove this, though). There's a reason it says 35C/95F on the label. HOWEVER, this yeast is cheap enough that you could try it... That said, what's the point of using YLAY if you're going to push temp to 150F? I've never done a standard mash-in with rye, but I have read extensively on this sight that it's a royal pain (thick, slimy, hard to strain). Seems to me this YLAY is purpose-built for rye!

I usually follow 2 gal/gal protocols.

I did a 100% rye meal (unmalted) with the YLAY. It's aging now. It's just "meh" tasting, but more time will tell! I've done multiple CROW batches with it too, and even my whiskey snob poker buddies give it rave reviews.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Evil_Dark »

rubberduck71 wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:37 pm I wouldn't go above 105F, as you might denature these enzymes (I have no data to prove this, though). There's a reason it says 35C/95F on the label. HOWEVER, this yeast is cheap enough that you could try it... That said, what's the point of using YLAY if you're going to push temp to 150F? I've never done a standard mash-in with rye, but I have read extensively on this sight that it's a royal pain (thick, slimy, hard to strain). Seems to me this YLAY is purpose-built for rye!

I usually follow 2 gal/gal protocols.

I did a 100% rye meal (unmalted) with the YLAY. It's aging now. It's just "meh" tasting, but more time will tell! I've done multiple CROW batches with it too, and even my whiskey snob poker buddies give it rave reviews.
Sorry I forgot to mention that If I go with a higher strike water temp, I would then wait for temperature cool down to pitch temp...
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