No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Beerswimmer
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: In the garage

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer »

Back at it! After a year of not distilling anything due to a big move I finally got a fire lit under me by my coworkers to have something to sip on. Oat whiskey. I still had 4 packs of Angel yeast, they seem to be fine after a year. I got a bag of rolled oats and poured 15 gallons of boiling water on it to sanitize, let sit for a few hours, then topped up with cold water and pitched a whole pack @90F. I checked on it after a few hours and it was fermenting! After 10 days, today, I stripped it. Everything came out smelling nice, even the tails weren't too bad. While it was stripping I cleaned up the fermenter and poured in another bag of oats. After the strip I took 15 gallons of piping hot backset straight from the boiler and poured it on the grains, let sit a few hours, topped up with cold water and added another bag of Angel. Couldn't be easier fellas!! I still have 2 bags left, I'll keep it going and do a final spirit run from all the low wines and some backset. Should give me gallons and gallons of keeper, plenty for to pass around!

I just order 4 more bags of Angel for the next batch!
Ut Alii Vivant!!!!
ttocs
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:31 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by ttocs »

I've got an unopened brick of Yellow Label, a 50# bag of corn meal and and empty 30L fermenter...

Those that are doing all corn meal, what is corn to water ratio with Angel yeast is working for you?
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9643
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

The ratio thats on the pack works well.......or read back through this thread.....the ratios to use are in it....as are other bits of information that will help you.
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1715
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NormandieStill »

Beerswimmer wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:28 pm Back at it! After a year of not distilling anything due to a big move I finally got a fire lit under me by my coworkers to have something to sip on. Oat whiskey. I still had 4 packs of Angel yeast, they seem to be fine after a year. I got a bag of rolled oats and poured 15 gallons of boiling water on it to sanitize, let sit for a few hours, then topped up with cold water and pitched a whole pack @90F. I checked on it after a few hours and it was fermenting! After 10 days, today, I stripped it. Everything came out smelling nice, even the tails weren't too bad. While it was stripping I cleaned up the fermenter and poured in another bag of oats. After the strip I took 15 gallons of piping hot backset straight from the boiler and poured it on the grains, let sit a few hours, topped up with cold water and added another bag of Angel. Couldn't be easier fellas!! I still have 2 bags left, I'll keep it going and do a final spirit run from all the low wines and some backset. Should give me gallons and gallons of keeper, plenty for to pass around!

I just order 4 more bags of Angel for the next batch!
Do you have small sachets of yellow label or are you dumping 500g bags of yellow label into your "mash"? I ask because I recall calculated that each bag could process something like 100+ kg of grain so unless your 15 gallon mash is extremely thick you're overpitching quite a lot.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
User avatar
rubberduck71
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 733
Joined: Sat May 30, 2020 11:22 am
Location: Eastern PA

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

ttocs wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:18 pm I've got an unopened brick of Yellow Label, a 50# bag of corn meal and and empty 30L fermenter...

Those that are doing all corn meal, what is corn to water ratio with Angel yeast is working for you?
After reading through various threads on Angel, I wrote it right on the flip top jar that I store the yeast in: 95F = 35C, & 25g pitched onto 10 lbs of grain in 5 gal water.
There are two times of year: FOOTBALL SEASON and... Waiting For Football Season
User avatar
Evil_Dark
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:08 am
Location: Quebec Canada

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Evil_Dark »

Just stripped my mash made with yellow label Angel. The mash was exclusively made of unmalted grain: 1/3 corn, rest is a mix of barley wheat and oats (feed grade).
It took a month to be sure that it has finished converting/fermenting, as I had some issue with keeping the temperature high enough.
The result of the stripping run is very special! it smell EXACTLY like red candy licorice! Very funny!
I only have 1 gallon of low wines at 45%abv (out of a 10 gallon mash), unfortunately not much for a spirit run. I will do another bigger batch to produce enought for a valuable spirit run!
The product look very interesting!
Evil_Dark
User avatar
squigglefunk
Trainee
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:40 pm The ratio thats on the pack works well.......or read back through this thread.....the ratios to use are in it....as are other bits of information that will help you.
I just jumped on the yellow label train, their website seems to state as follows:


"For non-cooking process

1th Processing the raw materials to make the starch come out. (mill the grains?)

2th Add 0.6-0.8% angel leaven to raw material(For 7kg starch material, add 50-100g angel Leaven)

3th Add 2.5-3.0 times water to the raw material and stir well(For 7kg starch material add water upto 28L)

4th Fermentation at 30℃ for 15-25 days,and the first 36 hours, stir every 12 hours to prevent material precipitation, seal the fermentation after no precipitation when stirred.

5th When the fermentation liquid is calm and free of bubbles, the liquid is pale yellow, the raw material sinks to the bottom of the container and the raw material has no white core, it means the fermentation is ended. We can distillate it to liquor.

For Cooking process

1th Steam raw materials and make it saccharification.

2th Prepare water of 5 to 10 times the weight of angel leaven required (about 5% of raw materials) and adjust the temperature to 30-35 ℃. Then dissolve Angel leaven into water completely, standing for 10-20 minutes(For exemple 150-200g Angel leaven for 30kg raw materials)

3th When the temperature of the raw materials at 25-33℃, pour the mixture into the raw material evenly, seal the fermentation.

4th After 7-15days of fermentation, the temperature dropped to room temperature and slightly decreased, the raw material has no white core, the mouth tastes of alcohol and a little sour, the nose smells alcohol obviously, that means the fermentation is ended. At this time, we can distillate it to liquor."

sound about right?

shit that's over half a 500G bag for one of my 55 gal mashes using the second method where you cook the grain first. Even more if you do the "no cook" version! $11 bucks in yeast for one ferment... The ebay page where I bought it said .1% yeast to grain, big difference there!
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by zed255 »

It's the price of convenience.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
User avatar
elbono
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:05 pm
Location: Middle Tennessee, USA

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

squigglefunk wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:06 am $11 bucks in yeast for one ferment
You need to subtract the cost of the malted grains or enzymes you would use otherwise.

I use it because it's easy and bullet proof so far.

I'm about to start messing with some enzymes and malts again soon. It's not a permanent decision.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
User avatar
squigglefunk
Trainee
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

zed255 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:21 am It's the price of convenience.
elbono wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:33 am You need to subtract the cost of the malted grains or enzymes you would use otherwise.

I use it because it's easy and bullet proof so far.

I'm about to start messing with some enzymes and malts again soon. It's not a permanent decision.
true, true, I just did an all corn with enzymes so I will do an all corn with this stuff to compare. I hope I dont end up with red licorice!
User avatar
Steve Broady
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:52 am
Location: NC Piedmont

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Steve Broady »

Maybe I’ve missed it, but can you propagate this stuff like you would regular yeast, and keep on using it? Or is there something in the package that’s consumed during the process and can’t easily be replaced?
Learn from the past, live in the present, change the future.
User avatar
elbono
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:05 pm
Location: Middle Tennessee, USA

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

I did this. I think you can definitely reuse it.

Is it worth the effort? Unlike many people I think it's pretty cheap compared to malt/enzymes plus yeast. Especially considering the effort to mash.

I just buy more.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
User avatar
Dancing4dan
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 904
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:18 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dancing4dan »

Steve Broady wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:20 am Maybe I’ve missed it, but can you propagate this stuff like you would regular yeast, and keep on using it? Or is there something in the package that’s consumed during the process and can’t easily be replaced?
I think the enzymes would get consumed. You could probably propagate the yeast but without the enzymes it isn't going to be the same.

YLY enzymes work at low temperature making it different to use from other enzymes I have tried.
"What harms us is to persist in self deceit and ignorance"
Marcus Aurelius
I’m not an alcoholic! I’m a drunk. Alcoholics go to meetings!
Dougmatt
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Location: Wherever Delta Flies

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Dougmatt »

elbono wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:33 am
I'm about to start messing with some enzymes and malts again soon. It's not a permanent decision.
Why go back?

I haven’t used angel yeast so curious why if it’s as easy and equivalent, why not stick with it?
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
User avatar
squigglefunk
Trainee
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

Dancing4dan wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:26 pm I think the enzymes would get consumed. You could probably propagate the yeast but without the enzymes it isn't going to be the same.

YLY enzymes work at low temperature making it different to use from other enzymes I have tried.
pretty sure this "yeast" also contains other molds (koji type) which create the enzymes that break down the starch that the yeast then consumes ? They work at lower (room) temps

if its possible to keep feeding the koji mold that creates the enzymes and keep the whole process going? I don't know... probably some... but I think the conditions that they like are more solid than liquid. So maybe use the solid fermentation process and draw off the wine that is created and add fresh product continuously?

I have done the "solid fermentation" process with other koji mold yeast blends on rice and it worked well, I am probably going to do that same process with an all cracked corn.
User avatar
squigglefunk
Trainee
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

Dougmatt wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:31 am
elbono wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:33 am
I'm about to start messing with some enzymes and malts again soon. It's not a permanent decision.
Why go back?

I haven’t used angel yeast so curious why if it’s as easy and equivalent, why not stick with it?
if mine ends up tasting like cherry twizzlers or some other licorice flavor then yes I am going back to my regular mashing process lol

I have heard mixed results on the flavor using this "magic" yeast - I am getting my all grain process with regular mashing down pretty good so I figured I could do an A/B experiment with an all corn run using the magic angel yeast. I just did one with standard mashing process using enzymes and no other grains so that would be my "control" ...

I know this is the "no mash no sugar" thread but it seems to be one of the main ones using this angel yellow label and they have at least the two distinct types of using the product on their website which I posted above.

So sorry if I'm derailing the thread because I am probably going to be cooking my grains for a bunch of reasons!
User avatar
elbono
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:05 pm
Location: Middle Tennessee, USA

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

Dougmatt wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:31 am
elbono wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:33 am
I'm about to start messing with some enzymes and malts again soon. It's not a permanent decision.
Why go back?

I haven’t used angel yeast so curious why if it’s as easy and equivalent, why not stick with it?
I like this hobby because I can experiment and learn. One of my original goals was to make "old fashioned corn whiskey". I've been sidetracked on lots of tangents but soon will get back to that.

Eventually I hope to make "horse turd whiskey"
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1367
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Setsumi »

elbono wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:25 am
Dougmatt wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:31 am
elbono wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:33 am
I'm about to start messing with some enzymes and malts again soon. It's not a permanent decision.
Why go back?

I haven’t used angel yeast so curious why if it’s as easy and equivalent, why not stick with it?
I like this hobby because I can experiment and learn. One of my original goals was to make "old fashioned corn whiskey". I've been sidetracked on lots of tangents but soon will get back to that.

Eventually I hope to make "horse turd whiskey"
I like the name... but I will not partake.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
User avatar
Steve Broady
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:52 am
Location: NC Piedmont

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Steve Broady »

Setsumi wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:50 am
elbono wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:25 am Eventually I hope to make "horse turd whiskey"
I like the name... but I will not partake.
I want to know more! And I might partake, depending on my mood and how much other things I’ve had to sample before that. I seem to recall reading an old post recently that mentioned putting the contents of a chamber pot into a moonshine mash in order to provide some nutrients to the yeast.
Learn from the past, live in the present, change the future.
User avatar
elbono
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:05 pm
Location: Middle Tennessee, USA

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

It's just a malting method (sprouting) for the corn. Some burlap could be used to make it a bit closer to modern sanitation standards and still be period correct.

viewtopic.php?p=6718312#p6718312

I don't have copy but I believe a recent source was The Alaskan Bootlegger's Bible.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
ThomasBrewer
Swill Maker
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:24 pm

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by ThomasBrewer »

I don't think the enzymes "reproduce", so the reuse potential is questionable. Additionally, I've noted that a lot of folks co-pitch with EC-1118 or a similar strong yeast in order to get the best results out of it.
CoogeeBoy
Rumrunner
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:56 pm

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by CoogeeBoy »

Steve Broady wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:12 am
Setsumi wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:50 am
elbono wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:25 am Eventually I hope to make "horse turd whiskey"
I like the name... but I will not partake.
I want to know more! And I might partake, depending on my mood and how much other things I’ve had to sample before that. I seem to recall reading an old post recently that mentioned putting the contents of a chamber pot into a moonshine mash in order to provide some nutrients to the yeast.
And the other tale is bout putting human excrements in rum whilst transporting back to the motherland so the sailors wouldnt drink it.
Taking a break while I get a new still completed....
User avatar
elbono
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:05 pm
Location: Middle Tennessee, USA

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by elbono »

CoogeeBoy wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:58 pm And the other tale is bout putting human excrements in rum whilst transporting back to the motherland so the sailors wouldnt drink it.
That I don't want to try...
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
Pure Old Possum Piss
Novice
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:49 am
Location: Ain't no damn tellin!

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Pure Old Possum Piss »

I haven't had to buy any yeast in many years cause I keep some growing year round and I love the taste. I don't know that much about growing fungi, but if China can grow it, we can too. From reading up on the ingredients, and a little more digging, it seems the rhizopus is the main "corn masher" in this product. To me, it would appear the rhizopus mold chews through the corn while releasing low temp enzymes that finish the starch to sugar conversion. There are a few different strains of Rhizopus that do different things. I haven't been able to identify specific strain they are using in the ylay yet. I don't think we need to identify that strain, just propagate it. If it's like most rice mold, it can be multiplied. If we can keep healthy colonies of yeast alive and thriving for years, one of us should be able to find out how to multiple the "Ancient Chinese Secret" ingredient in the yellow angel. It may take keeping a mold colony in 10lbs rice (just guessing the size) yeast round, or grow a colony then dry it out for later use, but if they can do it, we can too. I got my own strain of yeast that I'm partial to. I just need YLAY's mold.
If it's got hide or hair, I used to ride it.
Wheels or tracks, I can drive it.
Rotor or fixed wings, I can fly it.
And if it's grain, I'll make a drop outta it!
Pure Old Possum Piss
Novice
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:49 am
Location: Ain't no damn tellin!

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Pure Old Possum Piss »

squigglefunk wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:55 am
Dancing4dan wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:26 pm
pretty sure this "yeast" also contains other molds (koji type) which create the enzymes that break down the starch that the yeast then consumes ? They work at lower (room) temps

if its possible to keep feeding the koji mold that creates the enzymes and keep the whole process going? I don't know... probably some... but I think the conditions that they like are more solid than liquid. So maybe use the solid fermentation process and draw off the wine that is created and add fresh product continuously?

I have done the "solid fermentation" process with other koji mold yeast blends on rice and it worked well, I am probably going to do that same process with an all cracked corn.
Sorry Sqigglefunk, I missed your post earlier and said about the same thing again. But you said it better. I was also thinking of building a damp (non wet) or solid koji mold colony. But, how big a colony would you need to keep it going and use it regularly for cold mashing?
There ain't no damn telling!
I'm gonna do an experiment with about 25lbs rice and some yellow angel and try to get a colony started. But it'll be my luck that the yeast will eat my mold and leave me with nothing but some rice wine. :ebiggrin: Lol
If it's got hide or hair, I used to ride it.
Wheels or tracks, I can drive it.
Rotor or fixed wings, I can fly it.
And if it's grain, I'll make a drop outta it!
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13036
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

Anyone should be able to buy/find culture and propagate it, but that isn't what this thread is about.

I'm sure I've seen threads on that subject that predate this one and would be more helpful to anyone wanting to produce their own enzymes using Aspergillus, koji, etc..

Find some and bump them.
Metalking00
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 274
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 12:22 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

The packets list is as Rhizopus Oryzae. Also, angel does sell just the rhizopus without yeast. I believe its sold under the name "rice leaven".
Last edited by Metalking00 on Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13036
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

Metalking00 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:13 pm Also, angel does sell just the rhizopus without yeast. I believe its sold under the name "rice leaven".
I think I still have some. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
Metalking00
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 274
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 12:22 am

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

If you used it with your own yeast you would still be doing a "no mash, no sugar" situation. It may not be "angel yellow label yeast", but it would be analogous and be essentially interchangable. I think it deserves some exploration, maybe in another thread if this one is specifically for "angel yellow label yeast".
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13036
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

I saw the No Mash No sugar thread as being a cheap, no fuss, method, easy to do by newbies.

If some people want to expand it to include PITA protocols that are already known about and discussed on other threads, there is nothing I can do about that.
Post Reply