No Mash No sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Metalking00
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

If you use the same fungus as yellow label and replace their yeast with a different yeast that operates in the same temp range why would it be more difficult? Or even a different protocol?

Yellow label is great because its so easy. While im sure there are combinations of rhizopus/ yeast that may not be as easy or efficient, surely some might? Anyway, youre right. This is something for a different thread. Ill order some of the leaven and do some experiments. If its wildy more difficult then ill leave it at that. If its not, then cool!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by The Baker »

elbono wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:27 pm
CoogeeBoy wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:58 pm And the other tale is bout putting human excrements in rum whilst transporting back to the motherland so the sailors wouldnt drink it.
That I don't want to try...
I've heard (maybe in a story...) of sailors drinking the spirit in the barrel in which an important officer was being
taken for burial.

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by AmAcDaGreat »

squigglefunk wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:06 am
Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:40 pm The ratio thats on the pack works well.......or read back through this thread.....the ratios to use are in it....as are other bits of information that will help you.
I just jumped on the yellow label train, their website seems to state as follows:


"For non-cooking process

1th Processing the raw materials to make the starch come out. (mill the grains?)

2th Add 0.6-0.8% angel leaven to raw material(For 7kg starch material, add 50-100g angel Leaven)

3th Add 2.5-3.0 times water to the raw material and stir well(For 7kg starch material add water upto 28L)

4th Fermentation at 30℃ for 15-25 days,and the first 36 hours, stir every 12 hours to prevent material precipitation, seal the fermentation after no precipitation when stirred.

5th When the fermentation liquid is calm and free of bubbles, the liquid is pale yellow, the raw material sinks to the bottom of the container and the raw material has no white core, it means the fermentation is ended. We can distillate it to liquor.

For Cooking process

1th Steam raw materials and make it saccharification.

2th Prepare water of 5 to 10 times the weight of angel leaven required (about 5% of raw materials) and adjust the temperature to 30-35 ℃. Then dissolve Angel leaven into water completely, standing for 10-20 minutes(For exemple 150-200g Angel leaven for 30kg raw materials)

3th When the temperature of the raw materials at 25-33℃, pour the mixture into the raw material evenly, seal the fermentation.

4th After 7-15days of fermentation, the temperature dropped to room temperature and slightly decreased, the raw material has no white core, the mouth tastes of alcohol and a little sour, the nose smells alcohol obviously, that means the fermentation is ended. At this time, we can distillate it to liquor."

sound about right?

shit that's over half a 500G bag for one of my 55 gal mashes using the second method where you cook the grain first. Even more if you do the "no cook" version! $11 bucks in yeast for one ferment... The ebay page where I bought it said .1% yeast to grain, big difference there!
The ratio for the steamed method (described elsewhere as the solid state method) is for when you’re keeping the grain as they are after steaming—no added water except the mixed yeast and water that you mix up in step 2. Similar to shoju, baiju, makgeoli, and sake.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

Metalking00 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:13 pm The packets list is as Rhizopus Oryzae. Also, angel does sell just the rhizopus without yeast. I believe its sold under the name "rice leaven".
yup I bought that last time, didn't realize the process and it did not work for me lol! you can use it but you need to add your own yeast... It made some nice vinegar ...
AmAcDaGreat wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:09 am
The ratio for the steamed method (described elsewhere as the solid state method) is for when you’re keeping the grain as they are after steaming—no added water except the mixed yeast and water that you mix up in step 2. Similar to shoju, baiju, makgeoli, and sake.
I have done the 2nd process before, the "solid ferment" or solid state... but like NZ said, I guess this isnt the thread for that discussion
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

Metalking00 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:38 pm If you use the same fungus as yellow label and replace their yeast with a different yeast that operates in the same temp range why would it be more difficult? Or even a different protocol?

Yellow label is great because its so easy. While im sure there are combinations of rhizopus/ yeast that may not be as easy or efficient, surely some might? Anyway, youre right. This is something for a different thread. Ill order some of the leaven and do some experiments. If its wildy more difficult then ill leave it at that. If its not, then cool!
viewtopic.php?t=86487

this seems to be a good thread that explains a lot of it
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer »

I can confirm that it does work in very low temps. My usual method is to put boiling water(half the amount needed for the ferement) or backset straight from the still onto milled grains to sterilize and soften them up. I stir it up a few times over a few hours, then top up with cold water to get it to 90F and pitch. Normally my fermenter stays warm for the ferment, but in the last 2 months my garage has gotten down to 40F for the average temp. My ferments are cold to the touch and there is plenty of CO2 when I stir. I give them 2 weeks to ferment, and have had the same output from the warmer ferments. No change in flavors noticed by me.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

well dang, all I can say is the rumors are true... I finally got my top secret yeast (20 days from china, $22)

this stuff is attacking that corn!

ok, I dont know if this counts as "no mash" but all I did was dump around 70-80lbs of corn in my 55 gal fermenter, put enough boiling water to just about cover the grain, topped off with hot tap water to get the corn completely covered and stirred. Let it sit for a few hrs

when it was cooled to about 100 deg the corn had swelled up and soaked up all the water. I got my hands down in there and stirred real well and broke up all the doughballs. It was softened a bit but I would def say it was not cooked all the way through for sure. Rehydrated the yellow label in a 1/2 gal jar with 95 deg water for about 20 min. I used cold tap water to get the corn mush to about 90 deg then dumped the magic yeast in. I am planning on letting this work for a few days then top off the water to the final volume. I did this with my other yeast/mold adventures and it seemed to work well.

its now 10 hrs later and I opened up the fermenter to take a look and it is freakin boiling like no mash I have ever seen lol. Gave it a good stir and the corn seems like its already liquifying big time. I am impressed. Not sure I want to take a taste like I do with my regular mashes tho, whats that mold gunna do to me? I dont want to dissolve from the inside out! hahah

it even smells pretty damn good, I hope it ends up tasting like a good all corn mash should.

edit: I do want to say that yeast smells nasty lol, I did not want to get my nose in there too much for sure.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by CoogeeBoy »

You are not the first person to mention the smell of the yeast, it has been described as a range of things including baby vomit (that is what my kids tell me when I have a batch on) but this often only lasts a day or so.

Results have been good though
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

The YLAY does very well with rice too. Makes a very nice neutral!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by NZChris »

CoogeeBoy wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:15 pm You are not the first person to mention the smell of the yeast, it has been described as a range of things including baby vomit (that is what my kids tell me when I have a batch on) but this often only lasts a day or so.

Results have been good though
If the product contained that bug, all of our ferments would smell of vomit, but they don’t. I’ve done several ferments from my one bag and have only had that infection once.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I have to agree Chris.....I've had that once I think out of all of the ferments I've done.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Beerswimmer »

Never had a vomit smell. I get a lacto on top nearly everytime, but not a problem. Just finished a run of 80% oats and 20% rye. Got 4.5 gallons of keeper at 60%. Perfect, and couldn't be easier!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

the ferment smells good so far, the dry yeast itself smells nasty is what I meant.

no sign of lacto infection yet
rubberduck71 wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:26 am The YLAY does very well with rice too. Makes a very nice neutral!

I just got 60 lbs of rice to see how this stuff works compared to the "yeast balls" I have used before to make rice booze...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

I used it a while back to make a rice whiskey using sushi rice. After some time on oak its excellent.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

Metalking00 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 3:41 pm I used it a while back to make a rice whiskey using sushi rice. After some time on oak its excellent.
Did you find it good, but just "different" that regular whiskey? I still have some white that's 1+ year old.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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rubberduck71 wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:21 pm Did you find it good, but just "different" that regular whiskey? I still have some white that's 1+ year old.
Yes, its different from regular whiskey, but not as different as I would have expected. Ive had a few friends try it before telling then it was a rice whiskey. A few said it didnt taste quite like a "normal" whiskey, though none of them could identify why. A few just thought it was what a homrmade whiskey tastes like. Theyre not big whiskey drinkers though, so...

When i did the cuts on it i found that it had very little heads, and almost no foul tasting tails- i liked every jar up until it started getting cloudy, and even the cloudy stuff still wasnt bad.

I made it at about the same time I had made a single malt from Golden Promise, and they tasted very similar for a while, with the rice whiskey lacking some of the sweetness, but a similar raisinyness. Now, after more time, the flavors have diverged a bit with the rice whiskey becoming more earthy and the GP singlemalt becoming sweeter.

Ill havent tasted any in a while- Ill have a glass when i get home from work and see how it is.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

Metalking00 wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:37 pm I made it at about the same time I had made a single malt from Golden Promise,
GP is fantastic stuff. I used it w/ some unmalted barley & a small % of corn to make some of my best stuff (Irish style whiskey).
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SGB »

Beerswimmer wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:28 pm Back at it! After a year of not distilling anything due to a big move I finally got a fire lit under me by my coworkers to have something to sip on. Oat whiskey. I still had 4 packs of Angel yeast, they seem to be fine after a year. I got a bag of rolled oats and poured 15 gallons of boiling water on it to sanitize, let sit for a few hours, then topped up with cold water and pitched a whole pack @90F. I checked on it after a few hours and it was fermenting! After 10 days, today, I stripped it. Everything came out smelling nice, even the tails weren't too bad. While it was stripping I cleaned up the fermenter and poured in another bag of oats. After the strip I took 15 gallons of piping hot backset straight from the boiler and poured it on the grains, let sit a few hours, topped up with cold water and added another bag of Angel. Couldn't be easier fellas!! I still have 2 bags left, I'll keep it going and do a final spirit run from all the low wines and some backset. Should give me gallons and gallons of keeper, plenty for to pass around!

I just order 4 more bags of Angel for the next batch!
Ya.. I've been using this stuff for rice for years now
And want to switch over to corn.. What's your ratio corn / water? 4:1? 6:1 water : grain ?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by EricTheRed »

I use 33kgs of corn flour to 135 L total mash
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by Metalking00 »

rubberduck71 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:54 pm GP is fantastic stuff. I used it w/ some unmalted barley & a small % of corn to make some of my best stuff (Irish style whiskey).
I just got another 20kg bag, trying to decide what to do with it!
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by SGB »

EricTheRed wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:27 am I use 33kgs of corn flour to 135 L total mash
Thanks
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

ok this stuff smells weird coming off the still during the stripping run ...

I got a good conversion on the corn

Prob waited too long to run, couldn't tell for sure when it was done. about two weeks

I believe it did start to get a lacto infection, sour as all get out, a few whisps of film on the surface

The fine cracked corn was reduced to husks, doesn't seem like there's much left of it

but it's friggin weird smelling, the heads smell like sweet corny butter tails, the rest I didn't even want to smell... I'll just wait till the spirit run to start making judgement lol. Maybe it's from the infection... I haven't played around much with the sour infected corn thing.

does anyone do a "gumball" run or whatever? Throw some backset and sugar on the spent grains and make some corn/sugar shine?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by rubberduck71 »

squigglefunk wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:14 am does anyone do a "gumball" run or whatever? Throw some backset and sugar on the spent grains and make some corn/sugar shine?
YES! Works just fine if you treat it like a sugarhead: balance pH, add nutrients, & you're good to go.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

rubberduck71 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:03 am YES! Works just fine if you treat it like a sugarhead: balance pH, add nutrients, & you're good to go.
yeah,I drained the grain bed dry, added cold water, dissolved 70 lbs of sugar in the backset from the last stripping run and added that to the fermenter. If I fill the fermenter up about half way with cold water then add the boiling hot backset sugar mixture it ends up right around 80-90 degrees. I considered adding nutrients but I didn't and I never mess with the pH, as far as I know the yeast they use for angel yellow label is quite ph tolerant

The whole mess is filled back to the top and churning like mad as we speak! Super easy way to get another 40 gallons of wash to run. SG was 1.071 to start with.

I will say while this all corn AYLY ferment smells a little different (esp in the heads) from the last one I just did the "traditional" way, the low wines do have a nice corn smell, looking forward to the spirit run. I have about 2-3 gallons of cleared wash reserved I will add to the spirit run as I typically do.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

well so far the "no mash no sugar" is getting a big "meh" from me... at least as far as being a substitute for mashing grains for whiskey...

this shit tastes weird, even on the spirit run in a hearts jar I am def getting a licorice/cherry/fruity weird thing going on that others have mentioned. Its not huge but it doesn't taste like any corn I've ever tasted for sure lol. The tails have some corny goodness from the oils coming through or something. maybe the taste is an infection but that seems to be an almost guaranteed thing from what some people say on here. I am not sure this will even be drinkable for me and that is saying a lot because I will drink a lot of weird shit. I am gunna let it air out a bit more anyway and we'll see. It will prob end up being some fruit infusion in the end. I might put a little on oak and see what happens.

I am going to try some rice next to see if it is better suited for that for my purposes.
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Yeah: rice, or millet, or sorgo. Go some Asia...

I'm finally quite with Yellow Label. And I hope forever. It's OK for reflux only. Drying oil in smell, bitterness/pungency/astringency in taste if you potstill it. And the worse idea - adding its feints to the next run.

That's funny I was happy with it not so long ago...

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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:25 am Yeah: rice, or millet, or sorgo. Go some Asia...

I'm finally quite with Yellow Label. And I hope forever. It's OK for reflux only. Drying oil in smell, bitterness/pungency/astringency in taste if you potstill it. And the worse idea - adding its feints to the next run.

That's funny I was happy with it not so long ago...
it's definitely different, I am not giving up hope, maybe I jumped the gun... time alone, time will tell

I think with the right cuts I will have something to put on oak it's just different. The heads smell super weird to me, almost like tails...

I am wondering how the gallons of gumball I made with the remains are going to taste too... oh man...
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Re: No Mash No sugar

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squigglefunk wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:58 am well so far the "no mash no sugar" is getting a big "meh" from me... at least as far as being a substitute for mashing grains for whiskey...

this shit tastes weird, even on the spirit run in a hearts jar I am def getting a licorice/cherry/fruity weird thing going on that others have mentioned. Its not huge but it doesn't taste like any corn I've ever tasted for sure lol. The tails have some corny goodness from the oils coming through or something. maybe the taste is an infection but that seems to be an almost guaranteed thing from what some people say on here. I am not sure this will even be drinkable for me and that is saying a lot because I will drink a lot of weird shit. I am gunna let it air out a bit more anyway and we'll see. It will prob end up being some fruit infusion in the end. I might put a little on oak and see what happens.

I am going to try some rice next to see if it is better suited for that for my purposes.
I havent had any infections with it. Ive done probably 15-20 75L batches with it. I also havent had any licorice/cherry thing either...

I havent noticed anything hugely different than doing normal mashes.

Every now and then ill get a weird ferment where the spirit run has almost no hearts- it just goes from heads straight to tails. This has happened twice. My temp control setup isnt great and sometimes my roommates unplug my setup, so its more likely its my fault than the yellow labels.
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Re: Yellow label angel yeast

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Sarge410884 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:29 pm I have completed the distillation using rice and ground corn with yellow label Angel yeast. I was skeptical at first as to how it would come out and I'm here to tell you it is fantastic, clean clear Tasty and I diluted it down to 86 proof. I think I will add some wood to it to see if it will become a flavorful whiskey.
Now that I have done that I want to make potato vodka with angel yeast. I am guessing around 25 pounds, I hope some of you folks ight have some ideas. This is the easiest ferment ever. Pleas share your ideas, thanks
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how did you get on with the potato vodka using the angel yeast?
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Re: No Mash No sugar

Post by squigglefunk »

Metalking00 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:19 pm
I havent had any infections with it. Ive done probably 15-20 75L batches with it. I also havent had any licorice/cherry thing either...

I havent noticed anything hugely different than doing normal mashes.
I gotcha, there's a bunch of people on here that stated they get infections every time...

and everyone tastes things different. I will do a blind taste test with my friends to see what they taste.

I just did an all corn using the regular mash process with liquid enzymes and there is a world of difference in smell and taste between that and this yellow label all corn. It does work but I am not sure it's gunna be a substitute for my AG process.
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