Home Distiller

after around 60 hours of research and reading i give up. please point me in the right direction to find answers.
what must i do to maintain 93-95% with an increase the drip rate?
what I can't find anywhere is what exactly is joined to the distilate (runoffs)(drips out) if it is less than 96% besides water? my 21 inch tall, 2 in wide column packed with scrubbers and copper mesh with a inside condenser at the top part and will spit out 93% at the rate of 300 ml an hour. how can i get 95%? and how can i get it to drip faster and maintain at least 93% I set aside the first 330 ml at 90% going by smell.
I just want vodka. pure as possible and coming out faster than 300ml/hour.
i was thinking of buying an 8 to 24 inch piece to extend column higher. with tri clamps. and pack it with copper mesh. I have two elements that are 1500 watts. 50 litre sanke keg. i distill with just the one burner easily if i insulate the keg. if i increase the column length and pack it...... perhaps then i could open up the drip and it would maintain 93% and i'm guessing it will need a bit of the 2nd element to help.
I can't find websites or info that talk about this. i've looked for 7 days now.


so what if after the careful high reflux ratio forshots///// and so what if i open up the valve and let it come out faster and it drops to maybe 80%? so what? is it not just water molecules atttached to the etOH? or is it tails congeners like fusil alc propanol, butanol and amyl alcohol, ? why need 95% purity if i'm just going to be watering it down later anyway? unless less than 95% is full of shitty cogeners? right? I can't find the answer anywhere. do tails garbage get mixed or other things? I guess if I actually just open it up and get a sample i will immediately smell and taste that its shitty. Next time.
yours truly,
Badger

The simple answer is a bigger diameter and longer column with more packing length.
No doubt the long and complicate answers will be along shortly.
93 is a long way from 95......its that last few % abv that helps in my opinion.....it's also what sorts a good reflux still from a very average one.

Honeybadger,

High ABV is not the goal you are looking for, but the consequence. What you want is perfect separation between heads, hearts, and tails, so that you can get rid of (most of) the heads and tails smearing into your hearts, when you cut heads and tails out. Heads and tails smearing is where most flavor can be found. In order to get great separation, you need many distillation cycles, since each cycle is a selection protocol that helps further increase separation. Many distillation cycles RESULT in high ABV, but - again - that is not the goal you are chasing.

For perfect separation, 40 distillation cycles are needed. Research shows that a 41st distillation cycle does not increase separation. To achieve 95%, you only need like 13 distillation cycles. 95% and an unsmeared hearts cut are not equal, but a lower ABV signals less separation by definition.

The goal is an unsmeared hearts cut, when producing vodka. Another way to get it, if you cannot get to 40 distillation cycles (which you need for perfect separation) is to accept bigger losses for heads and tails.

Regards, Odin.

If you are interested in more scientific details, search for mccabe-thiele-method batch distillation. It describes the correlation of abv in the boiler, number of plates, reflux ratio and abv above the column very well. There are also very good youtube videos about this topic.

Based on the is method I have programmed a column simulation:
https://hobbybrennen.ch/Rechner/Kolonnensimulator.html
In German language. But easy to understand. "Böden" means plates, "Produktentnahme" product take out, "Alkoholstärke im Kessel" boiler abv, "Luftdruck" air pressure.
The calculator doesn't work with Tor-Browser I just see...

In short, you need much more plates and this means much more packing length.

If each of your two elements is 1500W, you have total 3000W. This is more than a 2" column should get. 3" would be better with 3000W.

Another option is to dilute and distill one more time. It's possible to reduce the congeners without hitting 95% this way.

thank you all. I pulled the trigger and bought 24 inches to add to my 21inch tall column that is 2in. and copper mesh. making this column longer should enable the drip to come out faster correct? and still be at least 93% as before. i also bought another element to help get the correct amount of power required no matter how much more or less. I'll get a P.I.D. also soon. as the title says: reflux ratio congeners... if that is a question then the question is how to get it to drip out faster and still be 93%. i'll find out and report back the difference this added packed- 24 inches makes. 300 ml hour is pretty slow. happy with 93%. reason i drink vodka is because its the cleanest. every drink hits the body differently. less congeners the better so 93% is good enough. does anyone know the reflux ratio congeners in rum? instead of making cuts maybe a reflux column run really fast at around 80% would make ok rum? probably a stupid question or others would do it. maybe they do. i don't know. i guess cuts is the best way to get a balance of flavor and minimize harmful congeners so reflux ratio: congeners is always irrelevant to rum and whiskey. instead i'm guessing it must be cuts method alone.

you should be able to pull off close to 1l/h with that extra length and be getting over 95%avb .
You will probably find that about 2kw is about as much power as you can give it before it floods ( depending on your packing and how hard its packed )

When you run with a high purity , you will be holding back all the stinky tails congenors . Once all the Ethanol has worked its way out , suddenly the tails will come and as it has been compressed , it will suddenly come out and boy .... it is nasty vile shit .... so make sure you are collecting in small jars towards the end of hearts cause when these tails come , they are bad and will contamintate your collection in a most unpleasant way .

I’m not talking strong cardboard or strong wet dog tails one normally associates with a pot still , but rather really putrid tongue wrenching chemical shit that will take half a tube of tooth paste to get rid of the taste in your mouth.

BTW ... am I the only dumb shit that has tasted tails off a reflux still .

Nope. And I agree it's not wet cardboard. It's more like sipping turpentine!

wow. thank you so much for the exciting encouragement. can't wait for the 24 inches to arrive. why didn't they just make and sell it longer than 21 in? strange. you guys probably have seen the model.The AlcoEngine Copper Reflux Condenser sold for around $170 canadian dollars. i've only done one single run so far around 32 litres. i didn't measure how many litres, after all the research i was so extremely careful that i collected and tested 100 ml at a time like 3 or 4 oz and then when the temp rose to 79 from 78.3C i was so tired 8 hours later that i figured it must be approaching tails. i couldn't smell any different and it was still 93% so i quit without even learning what the tails are like. spared my packing from being exposed to that shit also. i was so thrilled with 2300 ml of awesomeness. but i just smelled store bought vodka and i'm learning. wow my own batch actually has way more smell. so you guys must be right: HUGE DIFFERENCE between 93 and 95%. i wonder what % store bought stuff was before being brought down. Seriously no way to know what congeners exactly are in there? and nobody confirmed my statement: if i allow the drops to come out too fast and get more like 80% it will be filled with horrible congeners right?
my friend said i need to learn how to calculate the reflux ratio of my column by running it wide open and then do some kind of math? i couldn't find that on research. instead i found insanely complicated science websites with math charts x y axis graphs etc that i think were obout chemical engineering. there should be some kind of math chart for reflux ratio and congeners

Reflux can be roughly calculated by output vs amount boiled. I have never done it, but I assume there are calculators that can provide how much is being boiled for a given heat input. I honestly never cared, I was more concerned about getting the right abv. I would adjust reflux rate as needed to control head temp or abv. After running my rig I had a good idea of what different recipes needed. On vodka I always ran a 1” valve on a 2” output, that meant my minimum reflux was 4:1. Never even had the valve all the way open.

The right wash and stripping the wash before running it through your reflux still are two of the most important things that will influence your final product.
Knowing how to calculate reflux ratios wont improve the taste of what leaves the still.
Aiming for the highest ABV you can get is a good indicator that your running at your highest reflux ratios.

I believe this question i'm about to ask is the same topic. reflux ratio and congeners. extremely important to me is..... Does anyone have experience getting rid of foreshots and heads and then running it a bit fast like 80% on the alcometer and whether that gives you headaches/hangovers? I started distilling because I love how vodka is a completely different affect on the body compared to everything else and I want pure. I want only etOH. but perhaps someone can answer me...... have you tried what I asked?

What you suggest, high reflux for heads and fore shots, then lower reflux for a lower abv for hearts is done to get a more flavorful product. You will get more smearing of the tails into the hearts by doing this. If you want clean product, you need more trays, which means more height. More height is also faster as you may not need as much reflux to hit the same purity. I ran 8ft of packing on my vodka column. I would have gone higher if I had enough space.

I'm going to take a step back ask if you care about anything other than vodka?
300 mL per hour is really slow IMHO. I feel there is a lot of improvement to be had.
Can you give us a pic of your head? or point us to a similar setup still?

I'll go out on a limb and ask why a certain percent ABV is "magical" to you?
Are you trying to achieve a clean "vodka" like home distilled product that will rival commercial offerings?

thank you so much for your replies. here is a photo of my 21 inch still that is worldwide known as the AlcoEngine Copper Reflux Condenser https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/AlcoEng ... -still.htm
all i know is that if the abv is between 93 and 96% it definitely won't be giving me hangovers. Please forgive me for admitting that the only reason i drink every day is for the effects of the ethanol. but my family absolutely loves gin, whiskey and rum and therefore I have much to learn and provide for their wishes also. perhaps my question will be irrelevant next week when my pathetic 21 inch liquid vapor condenser column shall be lengthened 24 inches and packed with copper mesh (the 21" came packed with steel scrubbers). and puts out 300ml an hour. that is insanely slow no matter what anybody tells me.
I don't want congeners that make me sick. I want faster dripping of alcohol that either won't make me have hangovers and or my family will love. I think you answered my question by saying that if carefully get rid of the forshots and heads and then open the valve up and allow the distilate to come off a lot faster that I will be getting some of the terribly dangerous tails. thank you very much.
tomorrow i plan to experiment and put 1 litre of my 93% into enough water to cover the heating element along with juniper berries, corriander and cardamom. all crushed and thrown loosely into the 50 litre sanke keg and distilled with the scrubbers removed and throwing away the first ounce and running it as fast as possible.

Saltbush Bill has said it best already.

If you want a more pure product, you need more plates. This is done by hobbyist by adding height and better packing in the column. When using scrubbies, at a minimum you need the height to be at a 12:1 ratio of the diameter, but ultimately 30:1. So for your 2" column the ideal "packed height" is 60". Note: This is packed height and does not count the head/condenser. This will give you the most "plates" to help separate the heads, hearts and tails via reflux. There are other options for packing but scrubbers are probably most common.

For a faster take off/ collection rate, you will need a wider column. The width will allow more mass of vapor to move up and out the column. The separation via reflux functions the same regardless of 2, 3, or 4 inch (although you need more power to move the mass). So this is why wider is faster while still maintaining good separation (aka fractions).

Bonus comment: You may want to research SPP as a packing material. Plenty of threads on here that discuss it allows for a lower height and allows you to push faster. Odin has several post on it. Tough to find / buy, but can be had online if you are willing to spend some $ and wait a little bit as it usually comes from overseas.

While you've not asked, I will volunteer that the better you get at making a nice clean wash and allowing it to clear properly before running helps a lot. This take time and practice as well. I am still learning myself so I am using sugar washes as it is cheaper and easier. Once I get my actually reflux distilling mastered, I plan to make some grain mashes like wheat. I've heard some really good things about these. Also, make sure you are doing stripping runs before you do your spirit runs. This is a real time savor and makes it easier to get a clean spirit.

honeybeerbadger wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:44 pm tomorrow i plan to experiment and put 1 litre of my 93% into enough water to cover the heating element along with juniper berries, corriander and cardamom. all crushed and thrown loosely into the 50 litre sanke keg and distilled with the scrubbers removed and throwing away the first ounce and running it as fast as possible.

Look up Odin's easy gin for a superb and easy gin recipe.
Also, 93% in a boiler is not a very good idea. Even though you say you'll add water, dilute your boiler charge enough so it's not flammable anymore.

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:04 pm For a faster take off/ collection rate, you will need a wider column.

This common rule is a shortcut. Of course with a wider column you can use more wattage and of course with twice the wattage you can produce twice as much alcohol per hour.

But the real problem of the OP is his wish for purity and his short column. With a longer column he is either able to collect the same purity much faster or to collect a more pure product. Or both. Looking at his low output rate, it is obvious, that he can get a much faster output much cheaper with more length and a lower reflux ratio, than with a wider column, more wattage and the same reflux ratio.
It simply doesn't make sense to collect something like 300ml per hour with a 2" column and a typical wattage for this diameter. At least after the heads. He would get almost the same purity, if he doubles the output. At least until the tails are coming in.
Deciding for a column length means deciding for a maximum purity level. And then you should make it a bit longer, that you can collect this purity at a reasonable speed.

It's not meant to criticize the quoted post, but to confirm the OPs decision, that more length is the solution for his problem.

Hügelwilli wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:13 am

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:04 pm For a faster take off/ collection rate, you will need a wider column.

This common rule is a shortcut. Of course with a wider column you can use more wattage and of course with twice the wattage you can produce twice as much alcohol per hour.

But the real problem of the OP is his wish for purity and his short column. With a longer column he is either able to collect the same purity much faster or to collect a more pure product. Or both. Looking at his low output rate, it is obvious, that he can get a much faster output much cheaper with more length and a lower reflux ratio, than with a wider column, more wattage and the same reflux ratio.
It simply doesn't make sense to collect something like 300ml per hour with a 2" column and a typical wattage for this diameter. At least after the heads. He would get almost the same purity, if he doubles the output. At least until the tails are coming in.
Deciding for a column length means deciding for a maximum purity level. And then you should make it a bit longer, that you can collect this purity at a reasonable speed.

It's not meant to criticize the quoted post, but to confirm the OPs decision, that more length is the solution for his problem.

I am not sure I agree with your final determination that simply adding height is the solution to his problem. I say this because we do not know his expectation for a "reasonable" collection rate. But one thing is for sure, the collection speed on a 2" column does have a maximum speed if chasing purity. And a 3" column is considerably faster given 2" to 3" basically doubles the area of the column. This is not the first time this topic has been addressed on this forum. The type of head he is using in know for being quite slow relative to other types of reflux heads/processes. And people who use 2" even with the max height ot 60" packed column very often get frustrated with the collection speed and seek out other type of solutions. This is why I expanded on Saltbush Bill's comments as I suspect the OP may also be frustrated with the collection speed of a 2" diameter 60" height packed column. I wish I would have skipped the 2" column and gone straight for the 3" column. It would have save me a lot of money and time. So this is why I and others have pointed out all his options. His final choice will be determined by his own research, expectations, time, and money.

thanks for the clarification to make sure whats in the boiler is less than flammable beyond a doubt when i said i'll add water that i did understand it will be well below 40%abv. much lower because the lowest element needs a lot to cover it.
i'm sure any difference at all with the extra 24" will be good enough for us. after all even 300ml an hour is adequate all considered. i don't know about you guys but i'm pretty sure it won't be too difficult to make enough for the family at any rate. I will report back as soon as I run it to tell you exactly the difference made. 21" reflux column https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/AlcoEng ... -still.htm making 93% purity at 300ml hour
and when i add the extra 24 inches packed with copper mesh
I will tell you all how many ml an hour I can get coming out that is still at least 93%. No matter what happens we are extremely grateful for what we have and can make.
I'm about to try removing the scrubbers and using it like a pot still and put my neutral spirit that has been soaking in other herbs, spices, fruits etc filtered out.
i was surprised to read the necessity to pot still flavored spirits. i guess its because the goal is clear spirit and perhaps to get rid of additional horrible congeners that might be given. to make a liqueur i'll need to study more. i'm just beginning this new world

tried to read the free book online pdf "the compleat distiller" If i am reading this correct I believe it is showing that if the % of abv in the boiler is higher (thus promoting the idea of doing stripping runs and throwing that into a batch of normal wash and increasing the abv, but keeping in below flammable) the reflux ratio is allowed to be much smaller to get required "D" in the formula (D=product desired but not sure of ratio of congeners) if the reflux ratio can be small then it can pour faster. what is the correct term again for the stuff pouring out? IS IT reflux ratio?
anyway here is a pretty cool excerpt from that book i mentioned page 103 and on about reflux.

Reflux Ratio
In this book, we define the reflux ratio as the ratio of the final product returned to the column to the
total delivered to the condenser, and product ratio as the ratio of the product collected to the total
delivered.
So the reflux ratio (F), equals L/V, and the product ratio (1-F), is D/V.
If you collect all the condensate, returning nothing, then F = 0. If you return everything (operating
under "full reflux") then F = 1.
The balance equation becomes Y0 = F * X1 + (F-1) * XD
Since our aim is to get as much of the volatile component as possible, let’s set XD = 1.
The equation reduces to Y0 = F * X1 + (F-1)
In this equation Y0 is the mol fraction of volatile component in the vapor leaving the boiler and X1 is
the mol fraction in the liquid being returned to the boiler. Our aim is to get all of the volatile
component, so X1 = 0.
We end up after all this with the simple relationship:
F = 1 -Y0
This equation shows that when the concentration of the volatile component in the boiler is very low,
producing vapor with a very small Y0, F needs to be very close to 1 in order to achieve our aim (which
means that you'd get hardly any product D). The higher the concentration in the boiler, the smaller F
can be, meaning you need less reflux.
This is the reason you need reflux in a column in order to get a pure product. A reflux column on its
own will provide some of the total reflux required, but not enough to achieve complete separation. In
practice, a reflux ratios in the range of 8/10 to 9/10 give good results with a column containing around
80cm of packing

An example calculated with the McCabe-Thiele-method:

- 10 plates vs 20 plates
- 10%abv in the boiler

For 90%abv you can take off 50% of the vapor with 10 plates or 20 plates. It makes absolutely no difference, what means, the 20 plates column is for collecting at 90%abv oversized. If you want to collect faster, you need more diameter and wattage, not more length.

For 95%abv you can take off 17% of the vapor with 10 plates or 35% with 20 plates. Here doubling the length gives a similar result like doubling the diameter and wattage. But doubling the length doesn't cost more energy.

For 95.5%abv you can take off 8% with 10 plates or 29% with 20 plates. Now the 10 plates column is a bit too short for this purpose. And more length would help more than more diameter and wattage.

96%abv is impossible with 10 plates. With 20 plates you can take off 20% of the vapor. Here to give the 10 plates still more diameter is useless.

HHB , I just had a look at the pic of your still and I realized there may be another issue you need to address .

IIRC , those stills are fitted with a restrictor built in to limit the amount of product that the still can produce . ... kinda idiot proved so that if you fully open the valve you still only get a certain amount guaranteeing the manufacturers AVB is always obtained .

If I am correct , if you unscrew the valve , you will find it has a plate with a small hole drilled in it . By removing the restrictor , you should be able to take off at higher rates ....... but you will still need the extra packed section to get the higher purity at higher takeoff .

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:16 pm If I am correct , if you unscrew the valve , you will find it has a plate with a small hole drilled in it . By removing the restrictor , you should be able to take off at higher rates

You are correct Yummy, there has been a bit said about these stills over the years on the different forums. The way they are set up they are slow, but are sure to meet the manufacturers quoted ABV figures and produce a reasonably neutral product if you use the right washes for the job.
Crow used to know a fair bit about them.....dunno where he is when ya need him though.
As you have stated it should be capable of faster once a taller column is added and the nozzle hole size upgraded.

Hole size not an issue. Just unscrew it and either use the ball valve open with zero restriction or put the larger hole adapter that came with it for stripping runs. Called .1 or .6mm hole. Some people were not strong enough or clever enough to simply unscrew it with 2 wrenches. They said it was permanent.

never looked at one of these things in the flesh, how do they stay open to atmosphere if you shut that ball valve off? are they vented at the top as you would with a Boka ?
Any chance of a good photo of the little hole / adaptor gadget that adjusts flow rate ?

honeybeerbadger wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:27 pm Hole size not an issue. Just unscrew it and either use the ball valve open with zero restriction or put the larger hole adapter that came with it for stripping runs. Called .1 or .6mm hole. Some people were not strong enough or clever enough to simply unscrew it with 2 wrenches. They said it was permanent.

Cool ... you are onto it
Some folk don’t know , thats why I mentioned it .

Saltbush Bill, my understanding with that still is that it has several (small) vent holes around the top, on the sides of the column, I've bookmarked part of an YT instructional video below so it should start where he mentions this

Thank you.
Least the fella seems to do a reasonable job of explaining how a LM reflux still works.
Shame they don't come taller as an off the shelf item, if they did they might be better than a lot of whats on offer.

sorry guys. didn't check this for a couple days and working. i'll post a photo in the future when i get a chance of the holes and such. the top is not sealed. pour water in the bottom when upside down and pours out the top small holes. i also bought 24" extension to make it longer and copper packing. this came with just steel scrubbers and not copper. 300ml/hr at 93%. too slow and too low a % so i hope the extra length will do the trick. anyone know where to read about carefully slowly raising and beginning the foreshots process? instead of just heating it up to 78C with full reflux for 30 min and then starting the slow careful drip to get rid of freshots?

Boiling the wash, getting it in full reflux and then opening to start taking off product, discarding the foreshots is the correct strategy. There is no carefully slowly raising the temp and beginning foreshots process early, that isn't how it works. I suspect you may be thinking you will be taking off methanol only if you have the wash at 65 degrees? Nope, that isn't how distilling works, no matter what you watch on YouTube .