Very low ABV out of still problem

[Cbeek99]

I am a newbie and did my first (3) runs today. They were an all grain mash with rye and various other grains. I kept each run separate because of the different grains used. Now I know I screwed the starch conversion up at the very beginning, and so I am starting out with a very low alcohol content in each mash.

I am running a pot still with a thumper. I used 1 gal of the mash in the thumper, and running 4 gal in the still. After throwing away 1/3 of a pint for the fire shot, the best ABV I got was 55%. Which smelled like what I assume the heads should. 40-30% seem good, less than that starts tasting worse. I only collected 40oz or so from each 4-5 gal run, as I said I knew it was low content beforehand.

I am just getting a tiny stream out. I really didn’t hear any action in the thumper until the temp on the top of the still hit 195. The burner was maybe 1/3- 1/4 up. Propane.

What did I do wrong? Should I toss everything i got together and run it again? Thanks!

[fizzix]

Did you take any gravity readings at the start and end of the ferment? Those readings will tell you pretty much how much alcohol
your yeast has given you, plus if the ferment is truly done.

I'm completely useless in telling you what ABV to expect during the run as I never check. I'm happy knowing that the gravity
readings are going to give me a certain yield, and go with that. Right or wrong, I never feel I'm missing anything that way.

And in my opinion, following Kiwi's Guide For Cuts (link below) is the best and most efficient way of collecting the goods.

What is the final ABV total of what you've collected? Was this a strip run or spirit run? I'm not convinced you necessarily failed.

[Cbeek99]

Starting was 1.03-1.035. Final gravity was 1.000. They had been sitting around for a month because of the delay in the still. This was supposed to be a spirit run... definitely wasn’t blasting the heat to it.

What do you mean by the total ABV?

[fizzix]

Alcohol By Volume.
Meaning, once all done with your run if you had combined it all in a jar and measured that alcohol content.

1.035 to 1.000 even is roughly 4.5% -- low, but still collectible. A lotta work for little yield.
You say you know what caused your bad conversion? Are you able to fix that on your next ferment?

As far as collecting what you can get, combining it all, and re-running... sure. That's what I'd do.

[NJen]

Starting at 1.035 and finishing at 1.000 will give you a total abv of approximately 4.5%. (It's the difference in potential alcohol between the two, you can use your hydrometer to calculate this)

4.5% of 5 gallons is 0.225 gallons of pure 100% ethanol, or about 29oz. Assuming your pot still is about as efficient as mine, I can usually hope to recover all the alcohol with about 60% the entire run being "water", 40% being alcohol, by the end of a strip.

So, if you are expecting 29oz of pure alcohol in total, add 60% to that, which gives you an extra 17(.4), summed up to 46.4. You threw out the first third of a pint, roughly 6oz. That leaves you with approximately 40oz.

Sounds like you did just about right. I've never run a thumper, but I can imagine the maths are roughly similar.

[Cbeek99]

Thank you, makes me feel a lot better. Since I am no where close to the 60-80% ABV on any part of my runs, which I have seen is kinda a base line for the hearts. Is that just because of the low % of alcohol I was starting with? Or is part of that because of the efficiency of a pot still?

[Yummyrum]

have you seen this curve ? Its for a single distilation .

you pick your initial AVB at the bottom . go straight up until you hit the blue line . Then go straight across until you hit the red line . Now go straight down and it tells you the AVB coming out .

It gives you a rough idea what to expect . As I said its for a single distillation so where you are doing 1.5 runs with a thumper , its a bit out.

[RC Al]

Lols, never thought to use that chart for doing that, seen it plenty of times, but i generally use the calcs page

[NJen]

I don't understand what you just said, Yummy. Your method of using those charts makes no sense to me at all.

you pick your initial AVB at the bottom . go straight up until you hit the blue line . Then go straight across until you hit the red line . Now go straight down and it tells you the AVB coming out .

It gives you a rough idea what to expect .

So say my initial ABV is a 10% wash. So, I take the 10%, and go up to 199ºF. I then go over to red, which is at 54-55%.

My question is how does the 10% correlate to the 55%, other than by temperature? Which seems to me to be a separate factor altogether.

Cross sectioning those two doesn't tell me anything, unless my still happens to be at 199ºF in the vapor path, then I know the product coming from the condenser will be approx 55%..

What I'm getting at here, is what does the initial ABV have to do with this chart? I may be a bit confused, as I thought I had that somewhat figured out. Although I don't use a thermometer at all in my setup, so temperature really is not something I deal with on a regular basis.

Here's the same chart using Fahrenheit, since the OP referenced his temp in ºF

[RC Al]

Its not far wrong
Any differences would be in the efficiency of the still, size of the boiler charge and potentially some passive reflux
I get slightly higher (2-3%) than that on a stripping run - but i may miss a little at the end as you do, but If you then use the example of a 40% spirit run charge, it lands at around 77.5% - this is near to exact what my pot still produces

edit - the higher the abv charge, the more of that "fraction" comes off at once, meaning less water

[NJen]

I mean, it seems like it's within a certain range, but for me, those numbers simply don't work out. I understand there are a number of factors that come into play, but in my case I am looking at a 10-15% difference in the numbers I see from my own still, and those from this graph.

[6 Row Joe]

Starting was 1.03-1.035. Final gravity was 1.000. They had been sitting around for a month because of the delay in the still. This was supposed to be a spirit run... definitely wasn’t blasting the heat to it.

What do you mean by the total ABV?

Something you mentioned that caught my eye. If you measured your final gravity when the fermnt was done, some of that alcohol could have evaporated as it sat for a month before you ran it. You could very well have only a few percent abv. As a beginner it is best to run a few sugar washes until you get used to operating your equipment. UJSSM is a good next step in your prgression towards all grain.

[NZChris]

Starting was 1.03-1.035. Final gravity was 1.000. They had been sitting around for a month because of the delay in the still. This was supposed to be a spirit run... definitely wasn’t blasting the heat to it.

What do you mean by the total ABV?

I've just done a strip on an experiment that had the same OG and FG. After stripping for a while, I decided to triple distil and ran the strip to give me 8% low wines and capture lots of flavor. Sometimes you just get what you get and have to get the small stills out to finish the job.

[cayars]

I mean, it seems like it's within a certain range, but for me, those numbers simply don't work out. I understand there are a number of factors that come into play, but in my case I am looking at a 10-15% difference in the numbers I see from my own still, and those from this graph.

I bet you'll find they actually are a lot closer than you think they are. Keep in mind they constantly change as the run progresses and alcohol is removed from the boiler.

Altitude, barometric pressure and where your temp probe is installed can vary the numbers a bit but not much. This is pure physics of how stills work so all pot stills follow those curves.

[NJen]

Yeah I'm sure I'm not 100% accurate, and like I said before I don't use a thermometer on my still. Maybe i'm not fully understanding the concept behind this graph though..

Let me ask this again, say I take a 10% wash, I go up and over and back down, that comes to 55%. Now how do those numbers correlate, other than through temperature? As I mentioned in my past post, the cross section of the two doesn't tell me anything unless my still and the liquid in it both happen to be at said temperature.

I can't make sense of how you can connect the two lines together other than right at the beginning or end of a run, as the graph itself shows.

I generally run a 10% wash, and the only time that "55%" is a thing is about a third of the way through my run. I am taking this graph to mean that if I run a 10% wash, my whole strip will end up at 55% abv.
Am I wrong in my interpretation? Because I think that might be my problem, since these numbers seem to work for you guys, but it's quite a ways off to me. A 10% wash for me runs by the end, to just under 40%.

[6 Row Joe]

Neat chart but it is what it is. Figuring out ahead of time what your output will be won't necessarily help you get there. If you start out with a 10% mash you will end up with what you end up with. Less quantity but higher proof if you quit early (at say 50% ABV) than if you strip down to 20%. What will the chart tell the original poster about why his runs are low on ABV? A 50% output is a little low but he started with a low powered charge. He didn't tell us what kind of a still he has other than it's a pot or how he is running it. I heard "definitely wasn’t blasting the heat to it." and "I am just getting a tiny stream out." . That all doesn't tell me much. I bet the low ABV of the charge is the issue. here again, start with a sugar shine to get to know your equipment. A first timer running a all grain mash I think he did pretty well.

[GCB3]

NJen, let me see if I can help. Now, I’m digging back 45 yrs in my memory, but I think this is correct.
Yummy`’s graph is a standard phase diagram for liquid/vapor mixtures. These exist for all sorts of mixtures. This one is specific to ethanol and water. This was probably developed in some aspiring young PhD candidates’ dissertation. The Blue line represents his measurements of the liquid boiling points at various ABVs. The Red line represents his measurements of the vapor temps at various ABVs. All these were probably done under ideal conditions, certainly unlike my shed.
The reason Yummy/s correlation works is that you can assume that the vapor leaving the boiling liquid is at the same temp as the liquid. So, when you find the boiling point associated with your wash % ABV and follow that temp line over to the vapor curve, the ABV of the vapor at that temp will be on the bottom axis.
Again this may or may not reflect your “actual mileage “ but it’s pretty darn close on both of my pot stills. Hope this helps.

[cayars]

Yeah I'm sure I'm not 100% accurate, and like I said before I don't use a thermometer on my still. Maybe i'm not fully understanding the concept behind this graph though..

Without a thermometer or probe in the still this would be meaningless to you.

Let me ask this again, say I take a 10% wash, I go up and over and back down, that comes to 55%. Now how do those numbers correlate, other than through temperature? As I mentioned in my past post, the cross section of the two doesn't tell me anything unless my still and the liquid in it both happen to be at said temperature.

I can't make sense of how you can connect the two lines together other than right at the beginning or end of a run, as the graph itself shows.

I generally run a 10% wash, and the only time that "55%" is a thing is about a third of the way through my run. I am taking this graph to mean that if I run a 10% wash, my whole strip will end up at 55% abv.
Am I wrong in my interpretation? Because I think that might be my problem, since these numbers seem to work for you guys, but it's quite a ways off to me. A 10% wash for me runs by the end, to just under 40%.

The way you read it is to look at the temp on your still in the vapor path. Knowing the temperature (and it's producing) you can look to see what ABV is left in the boiler and what ABV it will be producing at that point in time.

So for example if your temp probe was at 199F you would look that up on the blue line and see you have 10% ABV left in the boiler and at that point should be producing 55% ABV product (red line).

If you temp probe read 185F you would have 34% in the boiler and would be producing 75% ABV product. Don't read more into it that this as the foundation.

So you could use temp vs having a parrot or taking samples, cooling to room temp (calibration) and using a proof and tralle hydrometer.

When you know the batches and your still you can know what your rough cut points are just by using the temp. Not that you'll actually make cuts this way but you can use it to collect in big jars or demijohns for heads, hearts and tails and use small jars at your "magic" temps where the cutover takes place. This can make it easy to collect in big jars but have 3 or 4 very small jars around the cut points to later use for making the real cuts. So more precision on the cuts and better overall spirit.

[NJen]

Alright, that clears things up for me quite a bit, thanks cayars. I was making poor assumptions as the page that the graph is posted on does post instructions on how to use it. Makes sense now.

[Cbeek99]

Thanks everybody for the info, I feel better about it now.