Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

charcoal wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:07 pm First set this PID to 65C. This is based on the video by George of Grain and Hops channel.
You will get some drops. Most of them would be very strong smelling (loaded with Methanol and Acetone?
I filled 380 ml from it. Temperaure stayed constant.
Then I set the temp to 75c. This is also basedon George's post.Temperaure stayed constant.I filled 2 litres as heads .
Then I changed temp to 78 and filled 3.8 litres finally. You can see the high ABV.
This is a quote from page 1 of this thread.. and there was a picture of his controller, if one is to call it so in the video, of the PID feeding into an SSR or something like it..

So if I read the statement properly, he set the PID temp to 65C, it feed the element power of some sort, because the element produced some warmth to create vapors.. then when that temp was reached it was readjusted to 75C and so on, then readjusted again to 78C..

If that is the case, then what is really happening is the PID is used as a potentiometer instead of a really one.. under those circumstances, yah, it will work but the ability to fine tune the power to the element is not there.. but that's not what a PID is design to do.. a potentiometer is a better design along with an amp meter..

I would interested in seeing a picture of the so call controller again.. and would be interested in seeing an amp meter reading at the element in relation to the PID temp numbers..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by LWTCS »

Haha base on that copied statement StillerBoy,, I just wanna face palm.
So much,,,,,superfluous fiddling only to render a lesser product.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
charcoal
Swill Maker
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:28 pm

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:02 am
charcoal wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:59 am Will do both alcometer and temp of the liquid coming out. It is Neutral so maybe 90+
So whatever happen to the 95% of the previous run of neutral... why now it maybe 90% this time on neutral..

What happen to the still to loose it's ability to produce 95%...

Mars
I have an alcometer that measures 90%. That is the easiest to show on camera. I will measure it by three different ones. No cheating involved.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

charcoal wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:45 pm I have an alcometer that measures 90%.
What does that imply..

That the meter is only calibrated to read to 90%.. if so then you are provide incorrect numbers and misleading the members with your posting of information..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by NZChris »

90% is a bit low for making neutral.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by NZChris »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:51 pm
charcoal wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:45 pm I have an alcometer that measures 90%.
What does that imply..

That the meter is only calibrated to read to 90%.. if so then you are provide incorrect numbers and misleading the members with your posting of information..

Mars
Charcoal already said that he has one from the Ukraine that only reads to 90%.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

LWTCS wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:06 pm So much,,,,,superfluous fiddling only to render a lesser product.
Larry that is what happen with new comers to the hobby, who's information is taken from youtube and people like George and others who have never develop past the beginning stage..

Members new to the forum think that they can put a still together, make a few runs, and become experts.. with out taking into consideration all that is involved, and there is much to learn..

And that is allow to happen to often, and it's one of reason this thread is of interest.. is a classic case.. new comers don't take the time to comprehend what the hobby is about, nor take the time to learn..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
charcoal
Swill Maker
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:28 pm

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

NZChris wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:01 pm
StillerBoy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:51 pm
charcoal wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:45 pm I have an alcometer that measures 90%.
What does that imply..

That the meter is only calibrated to read to 90%.. if so then you are provide incorrect numbers and misleading the members with your posting of information..

Mars
Charcoal already said that he has one from the Ukraine that only reads to 90%.
Yes. This one.
Image
Last day it sank to the bottom.

I will show whatever happens on that day. Even if I can't reach a stable temp.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

From the packaging is states that its able to reads to 96.. and from the picture is would seem to indicate so..

So what with stating that it only reads to 90..

But the more important question is, how a accurate is the reading on that alocometer.. have you tested it out to make sure it reads accurately.. because it a known fact that cheap meter do not read accurately..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
charcoal
Swill Maker
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:28 pm

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:24 pm From the packaging is states that its able to reads to 96.. and from the picture is would seem to indicate so..

So what with stating that it only reads to 90..

But the more important question is, how a accurate is the reading on that alocometer.. have you tested it out to make sure it reads accurately.. because it a known fact that cheap meter do not read accurately..

Mars
Correction: The one I have is only marked till 80%. By the time it came to me, I had started using the refractometer and my eyesight is not what it used to be. As you can see it is smaller than a credit card.

Image

But I have few others to check in more detail. All are from eBay and at least one is accurate on 40%. I normally use my refractometer. My refractometer is quite accurate.

I don't want to buy super accurate instruments because they tend to be quite expensive. If the above explanation looks dodgy to you then you can maybe stop reading.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by LWTCS »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:05 pm
LWTCS wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:06 pm So much,,,,,superfluous fiddling only to render a lesser product.
Larry that is what happen with new comers to the hobby, who's information is taken from youtube and people like George and others who have never develop past the beginning stage..

Members new to the forum think that they can put a still together, make a few runs, and become experts.. with out taking into consideration all that is involved, and there is much to learn..

And that is allow to happen to often, and it's one of reason this thread is of interest.. is a classic case.. new comers don't take the time to comprehend what the hobby is about, nor take the time to learn..

Mars

Keep the faith that there is enough bonafide info here that the new guys will realize what is optimal and what is,,,less than optimal.

I definitely don't want to become too rigid in my thinking as I had my own beat downs with Harry and Pint.
Having said that,,,,,PID is not an optimal PM tool.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by HDNB »

that little circle after the 80 indicates degrees proof, not % alcohol by volume / weight v temp.

divide by 2 for an ABV reading.

the other give away is that it's a stubby little meter, 0-100% abv is a loooong scale

you don't need to spend a lot to get accurate. i got an alcometer from still dragon for i think 7 bucks and it was dead nuts against government booze.
charcoal wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:37 pm
StillerBoy wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:24 pm From the packaging is states that its able to reads to 96.. and from the picture is would seem to indicate so..

So what with stating that it only reads to 90..

But the more important question is, how a accurate is the reading on that alocometer.. have you tested it out to make sure it reads accurately.. because it a known fact that cheap meter do not read accurately..

Mars
Correction: The one I have is only marked till 80%. By the time it came to me, I had started using the refractometer and my eyesight is not what it used to be. As you can see it is smaller than a credit card.

Image

But I have few others to check in more detail. All are from eBay and at least one is accurate on 40%. I normally use my refractometer. My refractometer is quite accurate.

I don't want to buy super accurate instruments because they tend to be quite expensive. If the above explanation looks dodgy to you then you can maybe stop reading.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

HDNB wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:19 pm that little circle after the 80 indicates degrees proof, not % alcohol by volume / weight v temp.
Good point HDNB.. I missed that all together..

Both pictures are not showing alcometer, there're temperature thermometers.. but being used as alcometer ? ?

And went can we see a picture of the controller or PID set up you used..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by The Baker »

LWTCS said, '...I had my own beat downs with Harry...'

You too?
But I am sure yours were from a higher expertise than mine.

Geoff
The Baker
User avatar
cranky
Master of Distillation
Posts: 6505
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:18 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by cranky »

Damn this thread moves fast, I can't keep up.
LWTCS wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:04 am PID on Cranky's set up would be a nice visual indicator as what goes on when the heat input experiences an interruption.
Can you say "bad behavior"?
It would be interesting to see what really happens when you run in the way Cayers, Charcoal, Slow42 and George claim you can. My problem is time...well that and I'm a cheap bastard :roll: I've had my original controller for 6 years now and never had a problem even though I've had enough spare parts sitting on my desk to build a 2nd one the whole time.
LWTCS wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:09 am Btw Cranky,
I feel like I was out to lunch on your builds? I don't remember them at all?
Really nice work.
Damn short term memory loss!!! :lol: You probably missed them, I think that thread was easy to miss and like most of my threads they tend to drift a bit, that was back in 2015 and you probably had a lot going on. Thank you for the compliment. The Muggles Too was baser off Mash Rookies original and the other one just kind of happened. They aren't much to look at because my build style is Early American Junk Pile but that is partly due to wanting them to just blend in with other junk lying around to the casual observer and partly due to me being like Oscar the Grouch in real life, you should see what my tuck looks like! :ebiggrin:
HDNB wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:19 pm you don't need to spend a lot to get accurate. i got an alcometer from still dragon for i think 7 bucks and it was dead nuts against government booze.
Still Dragon sells good stuff, not to mention the owner is a very well respected and knowledgeable member here who actually knows how to distill and not just a salesman. You would be well advised to listen to him when he gives advice.

Speaking of Stilldragon, Larry, don't you sell sight glasses that you could stack up and make into a packed column, essentially make something like what I run and possibly giving Charcoal's method a try and see what's really going on?

Are there any other members here running Borosilicate visi-stills who might be willing to give it a try? I know there are a couple of members running glass but we tend to keep low key about it.
Last edited by cranky on Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

cranky wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:22 pm Damn this thread moves fast, I can't keep up.
Old age catching up with you.. lol

Yeah.. a glass set up always looks nice, and your is just that.. and Mash Rookie was an artist at working glass..

I've looked into building one a few years back, and step away from doing one.. it not like I needed one more set up as I got too many as is..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Crow your not that far away from this fella , going by his tram card anyway . You could slip around and show him how to run a still. :thumbup:
User avatar
thecroweater
retired
Posts: 6079
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by thecroweater »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:49 pm Crow your not that far away from this fella , going by his tram card anyway . You could slip around and show him how to run a still. :thumbup:
Hmm ok for some weird reason I was thinking croweater, dunno how much help this ole fire monkey could help but for sure I'd help anyone that asks as ya know :thumbup:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
Corsaire
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1131
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:20 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Corsaire »

In dutch and french we sometimes speak about degrees instead of percent, but mean the same thing. The stubby meter may very well be scaled to 80%. But that still falls way short of the mark.
I haven't used a refractometer but apparently they're not suitable for high abv, because the refractive index starts to drop off again.

Where are you based, charcoal? There's got to be good cheap options for a high proof hydrometer near you. You'd need to calibrate against known % still. My set of three, the low and high end ones are fine but the middle one is of by 6%.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Yummyrum »

Charcoals in Australia Corsaire .

Christ , you can go down to the local HBS and pick up a 0-100 % -AVB alcometer for $19.95 .

I even found an Alla Alcmeter that measures 70-100%AVB at another HBS for again $19.95 .
6C7C7A87-41F7-4BF1-887E-2B5B6186410F.jpeg
They aren’t expensive or hard to get hold of .
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by HDNB »

and don't forget to buy two. that 7 dollar one i got from larry committed suicide when it got lonely. it's mate rolled off the bench. the very next run the still surged a puke and shot the little bugger out the parrot.
the autopsy was inconclusive if it died from a broken neck hitting the ceiling, or the compound fractures when gravity took over and returned it to the floor.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
User avatar
Bushman
Admin
Posts: 17988
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Bushman »

I purchased mine at our HBS store 11 years ago and still using the same one’s (where is the wood to knock on?).
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by LWTCS »

HDNB wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:52 am and don't forget to buy two. that 7 dollar one i got from larry committed suicide when it got lonely. it's mate rolled off the bench. the very next run the still surged a puke and shot the little bugger out the parrot.
the autopsy was inconclusive if it died from a broken neck hitting the ceiling, or the compound fractures when gravity took over and returned it to the floor.
Broken neck? Naw.
Much more likely died of a broken heart, heart, heart......lol.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by LWTCS »

Still got mine from Brewhaus. Since 09 ,,,,knock on wood.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Slow42 »

Crankey said “It would be interesting to see what really happens when you run in the way Cayers, Charcoal, Slow42 and George claim you can.” Crankey, George has several good videos already showing how it works. He has as much to offer as all the experts he. He may not be of your caliber in the experience department but he does offer valuable insight. It’s not like every piece of information on this site is correct, again matter of opinion. As for me mrneverdistilledanything42 I still can’t see what all the fuss is about. Heat wash, get alcohol, and I’m just assuming temperatures might have something important do to with the process. As for me you will never see me post anything about how I would be using a PID distilling anything!
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

Slow42 wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:21 am As for me mrneverdistilledanything42 I still can’t see what all the fuss is about. Heat wash, get alcohol,
It may be so in your mind at this time in your learning process.. But... just wait until you actually to do so.. the day will come to regret saying so..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Slow42 »

Mars I have you to keep me straight😂 I won’t regret saying anything I’ve said so far. If it has anything to do with temperature and I’m well aware it does I’ll have no problems take my word on that. Learning process that’s probably an understatement this stuff is complicated so I’m only going to start with one thing, sugar wash, just have to find a good one!😁 I’ll move on from there. I won’t be using a PID. You will be the first one to know of my results. Right now I’m at Huntington Beach State Park, South Carolina camping and soaking up the sun. Fishing in the plans from beach but to many great white sharks for me to venture into the water.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by LWTCS »

Slow42 wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:21 am George has several good videos already showing how it works. He has as much to offer as all the experts he. He may not be of your caliber in the experience department but he does offer valuable insight.
Does he have a glass column that can illustrate the bad behavior associated with an interruption of heat input?
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

Slow42 wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:29 am Learning process that’s probably an understatement this stuff is complicated
That is not the case.. distillation is quite easy really.. unfortunately people don't take the time to see what's all involved..

There four parts to the hobby, fermentation, distilling, cuts, and aging.. and each category has it's own requirements of learning and tools..

Again people screw them up, and that complicate their learning.. and one more thing, the get all the wrong tools to start with..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
Slow42
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:51 am
Location: East coast

Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Slow42 »

Mars I guess a matter of interpretation. Again your looking at it from the view point of an expert with at least a years worth of experience.😂😂 I haven’t made any mistakes yet as I haven’t done anything yet expect the still build and that is complete.
Post Reply