Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

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shadylane
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by shadylane »

Give it a try, it will verify what you already know :wink:
Filling the boiler with low-wines always makes a better neutral than 1 run and done :lol:
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by NZChris »

shadylane wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:39 am Give it a try, it will verify what you already know :wink:
Filling the boiler with low-wines always makes a better neutral than 1 run and done :lol:
Yeah, but the fusel side draw might make a difference. One day...
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Why would you bother putting anything but low wines into a reflux still boiler......isn't the whole aim to get as much flavour out as possible. If flavour is the goal there are other options.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Saltbush Bill »

charcoal wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:29 pm And very high ABV with around 25 percent strip run.
So your idea of "Very High" is " around 90" ????
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by NZChris »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:59 am Why would you bother putting anything but low wines into a reflux still boiler......isn't the whole aim to get as much flavour out as possible. If flavour is the goal there are other options.
Only as an experiment. The fusel side draw is for getting rid of high boiling point VOCs and I have successfully used it for that, just not with wash. It's unrelated to this thread.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Saltbush Bill »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:01 pm AEE04020-BE8B-46E6-A892-AC084217D405.jpeg
Here’s a graph.
Here’s some notes:
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html
Charcoal I have to wonder if you have had time to read the notes that Jonny kindly supplied for you to read,
or if you have completely ignored them.
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html
After all it has a lot to do with the original subject matter of this thread.
I'm sure that with your University education and your Certificates in boiler operation which you posted up here,not long ago, then deleted again, that you will be able to understand what he is trying to say.
That in turn may influence the way in which you are trying to run your still.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:40 am
jonnys_spirit wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:01 pm AEE04020-BE8B-46E6-A892-AC084217D405.jpeg
Here’s a graph.
Here’s some notes:
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html
Charcoal I have to wonder if you have had time to read the notes that Jonny kindly supplied for you to read,
or if you have completely ignored them.
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html
After all it has a lot to do with the original subject matter of this thread.
I'm sure that with your University education and your Certificates in boiler operation which you posted up here,not long ago, then deleted again, that you will be able to understand what he is trying to say.
That in turn may influence the way in which you are trying to run your still.
The subject matter of this thread is "Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller"

Not "The best way to run a still".

I may be wrong but that is the way I ran it.


That is not relevant to me. I was watching the temperature AFTER dephlagmator and not in the boiler. The boiler temperate goes on increasing as alcohol is depleted. In my case it sometimes goes beyond 90. Anyway, I am makes notes on the video now.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

Hi SALTBUSH

I am still converting my video to a format I can upload.

I have named the video SALTBUSH in your honour.


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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

A Stubborn Little One..

Enjoys the doing of things the hard way.. unfortunately it will all have to be un-learned, and hopefully it will not cause any damage..

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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by LWTCS »

StillerBoy wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:42 am A Stubborn Little One..

Enjoys the doing of things the hard way.. unfortunately it will all have to be un-learned, and hopefully it will not cause any damage..

Mars
To be fair, you can't truly appreciate love until you've experienced the opposite of love.

Hopefully if he can remain objective? All of the info
( trustworthy and less than trustworthy) will just solidify his knowledge base.

I always did believe you should stuff as many clowns in the clown car as possible just to see how many pony tricks you could make the apparatus perform. On the other hand, at some point it does seem ignorance shouldn't get in the way of always shooting for your best outcome.
Last edited by LWTCS on Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Expat »

Simplified.
The boiler temperate goes on increasing as alcohol is depleted
So you appear to understand that, once on the boil, the temp is fixed by the solution in the boiler, so you can't effect it. You can however effect how much vapor is being generated by increasing or decreasing the input power, not temp because as you just agreed you can't change it.

The temperature at the still head is not useful for controlling a still because it's fixed by the purity of the vapor in the column, which is a function of vapor production, reflux rate and take off rate.

This is the crux of what you're missing. A temperature control loop (PID) cannot function because it can't measure vapor production and reflux.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

charcoal wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:12 am The boiler temperate goes on increasing as alcohol is depleted.
Base on your statement above, your are referring to what.. the temp of the liquid in the boiler.. or.. the temp of the vapors coming off..

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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by cranky »

charcoal wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:01 pm 20c . The liquid was @22 C yesterday night
I assume that by "yesterday night" that is when you took the readings. So with temperature correction that means you are getting 89.5%
This calculator might help https://www.copper-alembic.com/en/page/ ... tion-table

What was your cooling water flow, was it still 1 drop per second, as you stated in your original post?

Now maybe I'm wrong but I think I recall you saying it was producing 95+. My CM produces 94+ and I wouldn't be happy with less. My 1.5" (38mm) boka produced at azio but was painfully slow. I'm sure I could get my CM to produce at azio, as I'm sure you could, but at a significant sacrifice on take off speed, although I think CMs are much more difficult to achieve azeo on than a boka. I think if I was happy with 89.5% I could run at a speed where I could hardly keep up due to the size of my column, but I wouldn't like the final product, or I would leave a lot more reject jars.

It does make me wonder if you can't achieve higher ABV due to your controller.

It also leaves me wondering about your temp reading at the top of your column, because when tails begin coming in and the purity begins to drop, the temp then begins to climb above 173f, at 90% it would be significantly higher than 173f (that's 78.3 in Canadian temp)

I still don't really understand how your controller works, but I don't have time to watch videos, or even make this post right now :roll:

Is this controller all about a cheap way to automate? Minimizing water use? Did George's videos make you think this was the best controller? or what?

I think what I understand about how your controller works is it is taking a temperature at the top of the column and that is telling the controller to turn the element off or on. So, for example, if the temperature is set at 77.8c and the temp gets to 77.9 the element turns off when it reaches 77.7 it turns back on, so if it sits there at 77.8 the element stays on at 100% power. Is this correct?





Then one more thing
charcoal wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:12 am
The subject matter of this thread is "Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller"

Not "The best way to run a still".

I may be wrong but that is the way I ran it.
To me the question that brings up is,

Are you happy with the outcome and the product you are making? Would you like to make a better, cleaner, more pure product?
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by NZChris »

Like this, Cranky:
viewtopic.php?f=85&t=77252&start=30#p7592295

You have a choice of PIDs with a simple switch that flashes on for a % of time, or controlling a triac.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Yummyrum »

NZChris wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:43 am
You have a choice of PIDs with a simple switch that flashes on for a % of time, or controlling a triac.
Yes Chris . If you look at the spec sheet for the PID Charcoal uses , it even says if you change one of the settings , it will output a current directly proportional to the output % .

So , instead of using the click on click off output that we all mostly think of with regards to PIDs , by using the alternate current output , a constant power can be applied to the element .

Now the tricky bit is that a special type of SSR is required that has a linear current input and converts that to a phase control . .... something like this which you can feed in a linear DC voltage or current and it converts that to phase control or Burstfire control ..... perfect :thumbup:
http://www.crydom.com/en/products/catal ... ontrol.pdf

So now we can apply a constant power to the boiler instead of the on/off surge of vapour . This would then give the column at least half a chance to run in a state of equalibrium. I think this is one of the main sticking points with PID’s on a column driving power .

Now , if the power is adjusted to balance a set coolant flow then you are adjusting reflux ratio .

If you are adjusting reflux ratio , you will end up with a particular temp that is the temp related to the AVB produced .

So you should in theory be able to pick a desired ABV , calculate what temp you think it should be , monitor this temp , and get the PID to adjust boiler power to maintain this . .... but it does require a linear power feed to the element , not Clunky on/off .
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

cranky wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:08 am
charcoal wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:01 pm 20c . The liquid was @22 C yesterday night
I assume that by "yesterday night" that is when you took the readings. So with temperature correction that means you are getting 89.5%
This calculator might help https://www.copper-alembic.com/en/page/ ... tion-table

What was your cooling water flow, was it still 1 drop per second, as you stated in your original post?

Now maybe I'm wrong but I think I recall you saying it was producing 95+. My CM produces 94+ and I wouldn't be happy with less. My 1.5" (38mm) boka produced at azio but was painfully slow. I'm sure I could get my CM to produce at azio, as I'm sure you could, but at a significant sacrifice on take off speed, although I think CMs are much more difficult to achieve azeo on than a boka. I think if I was happy with 89.5% I could run at a speed where I could hardly keep up due to the size of my column, but I wouldn't like the final product, or I would leave a lot more reject jars.

It does make me wonder if you can't achieve higher ABV due to your controller.

It also leaves me wondering about your temp reading at the top of your column, because when tails begin coming in and the purity begins to drop, the temp then begins to climb above 173f, at 90% it would be significantly higher than 173f (that's 78.3 in Canadian temp)

I still don't really understand how your controller works, but I don't have time to watch videos, or even make this post right now :roll:

Is this controller all about a cheap way to automate? Minimizing water use? Did George's videos make you think this was the best controller? or what?

I think what I understand about how your controller works is it is taking a temperature at the top of the column and that is telling the controller to turn the element off or on. So, for example, if the temperature is set at 77.8c and the temp gets to 77.9 the element turns off when it reaches 77.7 it turns back on, so if it sits there at 77.8 the element stays on at 100% power. Is this correct?





Then one more thing
charcoal wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:12 am
The subject matter of this thread is "Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller"

Not "The best way to run a still".

I may be wrong but that is the way I ran it.
To me the question that brings up is,

Are you happy with the outcome and the product you are making? Would you like to make a better, cleaner, more pure product?
The on off behaviour is a thermostat behaviour. Pid predicts the power needed and at times was within 0.1c. You can see this in video tonight.

It is a long video but I will tell you where to skip it. I don't want to waste your or anyone's money or time.

Earlier I was running this still by water flow management. I knew that I needed a way to reduce heating. I also knew that dibosh on AliExpress sells a pid equipped still. The idea of using heat management came from Riku's book. Riku is a member on this but runs his own boards and I think sells automatic stills. I don't sell anything.

George sells parts and makes money off YouTube. I don't. I had to remove my last video as my face was visible in the glass.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

charcoal wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:20 pm Earlier I was running this still by water flow management. I knew that I needed a way to reduce heating.
I for one is very interesting in your explanation of "running a still by water flow management" and what is meant by " needed a way to reduced heating"..

All new terms for me about distillation..

Mars
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by cranky »

OK I think I understand. Charcoal is using a PID to do the same thing I am using a Potentiometer for in order to adjust the SSR.

It seems to me a better use of automated stuff would be to adjust the cooling flow rather than the input heat because on my stills I make one adjustment to the power knob and never touch it again, I don't see the need to constantly adjust heat input. That's not to say that cooling flow is much of a problem, once that is dialed in the only reason I need to adjust it is because I use a reservoir instead of wasting water and late in the run it begins to heat up, requiring some minor adjustments for the RC. It would be nice to automate that part of the process but really by the time that happens I just put it back into full reflux and only get a little bit more high proof before I can't hold back the heads any longer.
charcoal wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:20 pm The on off behaviour is a thermostat behaviour. Pid predicts the power needed and at times was within 0.1c. You can see this in video tonight.

It is a long video but I will tell you where to skip it. I don't want to waste your or anyone's money or time.

Earlier I was running this still by water flow management. I knew that I needed a way to reduce heating. I also knew that dibosh on AliExpress sells a pid equipped still. The idea of using heat management came from Riku's book. Riku is a member on this but runs his own boards and I think sells automatic stills. I don't sell anything.
.

Now Charcoal, I don't think you answered some of my questions so I'll ask again.

What was your cooling water flow, was it still 1 drop per second, as you stated in your original post?

What was the temp reading at the top of the column?

Is this controller all about a cheap way to automate? Minimizing water use? Did George's videos make you think this was the best controller? or what?

Are you happy with the outcome and the product you are making? Would you like to make a better, cleaner, more pure product?

I would actually like to put one of these controllers on my still just to see what's going on inside the column, but I don't think it would work the same on a 90mm column as it does on a 50...well that and like I said I'm a cheap bastard, I'm also happy using what I have but I am intrigued by what you are doing.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by LWTCS »

Tough to get a PID to behave for the duration if you can not provide a stable incoming coolant temps for the duration.

Though I do believe the only place for a PID is managing coolant.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by HDNB »

i've never really cared about what the control mechanism is, there is as many ways to configure the free flow of electrons as there are people trying to configure them.
what i'm interested in seeing is real data. the boiler temps, head temps, coolant flows, abv's and take off rates based on the equipment (size)....
what has been presented here is so far away from my practical experience that i don't believe them possible...whether of not a potentiometer, a pid, thermostat, manual steam valve or sliding a log in and out of a fire is how you are controlling heat...i still don't see how the touted numbers relate.

it's gonna be another week or so before i can get mine fired up to try to replicate the data here, so this video is timely.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

NZChris wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:43 am Like this, Cranky:
viewtopic.php?f=85&t=77252&start=30#p7592295

You have a choice of PIDs with a simple switch that flashes on for a % of time, or controlling a triac.
Background story.

I installed an internal heater in my boiler which worked well.

I then wanted a readymade controller. Kegland sells one for 45 AUD.

Inkbird pid was cheaper than this kegland thing and smaller too. I started reading about controller and found that riku and George use it .AFTER delivery I realised that it was a thermostat and not a pid. I returned it and bought a pid set.

And I was quite happy with the results.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by NZChris »

What is the model number of your PID?
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

NZChris wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:01 pm What is the model number of your PID?
InkBird 100VH

Videos is uploaded now
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

Video is uploaded here

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=77452

Result is 88% or so. Not that good but I think I got something better when I set it on 78.4. This was set at 77.8
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

cranky wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:50 pm OK I think I understand. Charcoal is using a PID to do the same thing I am using a Potentiometer for in order to adjust the SSR.

It seems to me a better use of automated stuff would be to adjust the cooling flow rather than the input heat because on my stills I make one adjustment to the power knob and never touch it again, I don't see the need to constantly adjust heat input. That's not to say that cooling flow is much of a problem, once that is dialed in the only reason I need to adjust it is because I use a reservoir instead of wasting water and late in the run it begins to heat up, requiring some minor adjustments for the RC. It would be nice to automate that part of the process but really by the time that happens I just put it back into full reflux and only get a little bit more high proof before I can't hold back the heads any longer.
charcoal wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:20 pm The on off behaviour is a thermostat behaviour. Pid predicts the power needed and at times was within 0.1c. You can see this in video tonight.

It is a long video but I will tell you where to skip it. I don't want to waste your or anyone's money or time.

Earlier I was running this still by water flow management. I knew that I needed a way to reduce heating. I also knew that dibosh on AliExpress sells a pid equipped still. The idea of using heat management came from Riku's book. Riku is a member on this but runs his own boards and I think sells automatic stills. I don't sell anything.
.

Now Charcoal, I don't think you answered some of my questions so I'll ask again.

What was your cooling water flow, was it still 1 drop per second, as you stated in your original post?

What was the temp reading at the top of the column?

Is this controller all about a cheap way to automate? Minimizing water use? Did George's videos make you think this was the best controller? or what?

Are you happy with the outcome and the product you are making? Would you like to make a better, cleaner, more pure product?

I would actually like to put one of these controllers on my still just to see what's going on inside the column, but I don't think it would work the same on a 90mm column as it does on a 50...well that and like I said I'm a cheap bastard, I'm also happy using what I have but I am intrigued by what you are doing.
What was your cooling water flow, was it still 1 drop per second, as you stated in your original post?
Yes
What was the temp reading at the top of the column?
77.8. I set this for heads. Result is 88% ABV or so. Video is uploaded.

Are you happy with the outcome and the product you are making? Would you like to make a better, cleaner, more pure product?

This was my first controller so I am OK. I have ordered a triac based controller from Aliexpress. Yes. I will try for some modifications and improvements.

I would actually like to put one of these controllers on my still just to see what's going on inside the column, but I don't think it would work the same on a 90mm column as it does on a 50...well that and like I said I'm a cheap bastard, I'm also happy using what I have but I am intrigued by what you are doing.

If you can spare like 50 AUD then it is worth a try.

Video is uploaded anyway!!
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

I know that some of you already have PIDs for other uses. I request you to repeat this at 78.4C and let us know.

Others, please wait!!
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by charcoal »

StillerBoy wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:48 pm
charcoal wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:20 pm Earlier I was running this still by water flow management. I knew that I needed a way to reduce heating.
I for one is very interesting in your explanation of "running a still by water flow management" and what is meant by " needed a way to reduced heating"..

All new terms for me about distillation..

Mars
One learns everyday, right?

Reduced heating = Controlled heating/Reduce heat. English is my second language.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by mekks082 »

Wow this thread was a long read, I will admit that I have watched a ton of Georges videos and went the PID route. I am running a CM reflux still and have had issues with surging and smearing. After reading this thread it all kinda clicked for me. It is currently the only controller I have. I think I can run it in power % mode and keep the heat steady but I will have to look into it.

Looks like I have a lot more reading to do.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by Expat »

mekks082 wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:43 pm Wow this thread was a long read, I will admit that I have watched a ton of Georges videos and went the PID route. I am running a CM reflux still and have had issues with surging and smearing. After reading this thread it all kinda clicked for me. It is currently the only controller I have. I think I can run it in power % mode and keep the heat steady but I will have to look into it.

Looks like I have a lot more reading to do.
Glad it clicked for you. :thumbup: PIDs can have a place in mashing, and other processes just not in running a still.
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Re: Me running my CM reflux still by using a PID controller

Post by StillerBoy »

charcoal wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:41 am Reduced heating = Controlled heating/Reduce heat. English is my second language.
You will need unlearn and relearn that in distillation you are not controlling heating.. you are controlling the amount of power input to the element.. it has nothing to do with temperature.. repeat that line as many time as require so that you can stopping referring to temperature..

As to the second language, it is not relevant to distillation.. what is relevant is the proper terms used, to which you have not taken the time to learn..
mekks082 wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:43 pm Looks like I have a lot more reading to do.
Another George's video guy, there's been a rash of them lately..

Yeah you surely have to relearn a lots of things.. make yourself a simple controller using an SSR and potentiometer with volt/amp meter, and all the problems of surging are over.. as to smearing, you need to learn what fores and heads are..

Mars
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