New BokaKob Advice

[Sandslinger]

So I am in the design phase of creating my first Reflux a 54mm(2") Bokabob, and hope the good people here can aid me in clearing up some holes in my understanding.

Disclaimer before asking what might seem like stupid questions.
I have read through this entire forum and many others and am furiously trying to gather the requisite knowledge and understanding to do this. I am very aware that I lack true depth of understanding of the scientific processes behind it all, what makes it all the harder is the amount of very conflicting information one is met with underways. (the 'myth' of throwing the heads away because its all methanol as an example) So I am trying my best, but I come from a background of extremely limited technical knowledge, and am having to learn the metal working and electrical workings all at once =)

First the Pot

I have found a 30L pot with a 3000Watt heating element I want to buy, that comes with these bad boys, with which i hope to regulate the power output of that 3000watt element down to about 2000Watt for equlibrium.
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main ... cts_id=560
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main ... ducts_id=9

Question 1 At one point I saw a random post in here state that a 30Litre (7.9Gallon) Pot was too large for a bokabob of this size, as the bokabob wouldnt handle the output, yet I have seen many people post Bokabob of this size with 30 Litres since. So is it too large or just right ?

Question 2 Is there any reason to not use a power regulator in the way I describe on the 3000Watt element ?

Thanks in advance for any help or critique of my lack of knowledge =)

[Demy]

Waiting for people more experienced than me, I try to answer
1) While not using a boka, I don't think you would have any problems with a 30L boiler, in fact many here are much larger in size (not me).
2) I don't know that instrument but from the description it would seem an evolved power regulator so it could go using it in "power management" mode and not "temperature management", if I understand the product description correctly.

[Expat]

Question 1 At one point I saw a random post in here state that a 30Litre (7.9Gallon) Pot was too large for a bokabob of this size, as the bokabob wouldnt handle the output, yet I have seen many people post Bokabob of this size with 30 Litres since. So is it too large or just right ?

It's not too large, I ran my 2" bok on my 55L keg boiler. It works fine. Most people's complaint is that it's too slow on a full boiler spirit run, which is a common issue with 2" reflux columns.

Re #2, no this isn't what you want, it's a PID which controls temp and there is mostly crap for a reflux column.

[Yummyrum]

Re #2, no this isn't what you want, it's a PID which controls temp and there is mostly crap for a reflux column.

Yes and no Expat .
It has both A PID section and a Power controller section in the one box . But I think the OP is aware of that will use the PID section to bring the still up to around boiling , then switch to Power control yo run it.

Personally I think the DSPR1 is just as useful ( its what the DSP120 was based on ) if you don’t need the warmup monitor feature as it just contains the power controller, but the DSP120 has a few more bells and whistles


And regarding the boiler , I agree , 30l it fine . Absolutely no worries if you use wash in it but sure , if you run it full of stripped wash , it will take a while ..... but hey , theres nothing wrong with shutting down and starting again the next day or not filling the boiler right up.

By the way , you are better to run strip rather than wash in a boka as it will produce cleaner product .

[Expat]

Re #2, no this isn't what you want, it's a PID which controls temp and there is mostly crap for a reflux column.

Yes and no Expat .
It has both A PID section and a Power controller section in the one box . But I think the OP is aware of that will use the PID section to bring the still up to around boiling , then switch to Power control to run it.

While I appreciate there is merit to what you're saying, and I respect your opinion, I still stand by my original statement. OP does correctly refer to power regulation rather than temp, which is a hopeful sign, but I stick on the side of caution and assume they don't understand.

You're correct that the device could run in manual mode, which speaks against the main part of my comment, but for the vast majority users and usages, the other functions are unnecessary. I would also suggest that the additional complexity has a cost in that there is more to go wrong, but potentially worse (IMHO) is the temptation to rely on it as a form of automation and lapse on safe oversight.

[acfixer69]

The misunderstanding started with the topic header BokaBob, shold be Bokakob. That should fix the misunderstanding.

[zapata]

I think a detail about pot size that hasn't been explicitly stated yet is that pot size and still size don't really affect each other. You could have a 2" boka on a 30 gallon still if you wanted. The inter related specs are for power and column diameter. And while a 2" column will work at 2kw for most packings, meaning it won't choke and spit, but it will be beyond optimum. 1300-1600 watts is more typical for optimum results.

As for the ezboil, I think it's fine. Never used one, but have used other auberins gear, and the concept is sound if applied correctly.

[Sandslinger]

Re #2, no this isn't what you want, it's a PID which controls temp and there is mostly crap for a reflux column.

Yes and no Expat .
It has both A PID section and a Power controller section in the one box . But I think the OP is aware of that will use the PID section to bring the still up to around boiling , then switch to Power control to run it.

While I appreciate there is merit to what you're saying, and I respect your opinion, I still stand by my original statement. OP does correctly refer to power regulation rather than temp, which is a hopeful sign, but I stick on the side of caution and assume they don't understand.

You're correct that the device could run in manual mode, which speaks against the main part of my comment, but for the vast majority users and usages, the other functions are unnecessary. I would also suggest that the additional complexity has a cost in that there is more to go wrong, but potentially worse (IMHO) is the temptation to rely on it as a form of automation and lapse on safe oversight.

Thanks for the caution .

This great thread helped me understand the fallacy of temp automation
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=2965

I am buying that particular part because it comes with the pot

I have considered using it to make a temperature failsafe that switches the still off should the cooling water get too hot(or the area above the condenser).

Still wont leave my still

[Sandslinger]

The misunderstanding started with the topic header BokaBob, shold be Bokakob. That should fix the misunderstanding.

Oops my bad !

[Sandslinger]

By the way , you are better to run strip rather than wash in a boka as it will produce cleaner product .

Sorry, could you clarify this post for me?

I read it as advice that I should do second distillation(low wine) in Boka, but not the wash? Or did I misunderstand something?

[Saltbush Bill]

Low wines is the result of stripping a wash. You need to strip to get low wines.

[zapata]

I have considered using it to make a temperature failsafe that switches the still off should the cooling water get too hot(or the area above the condenser).

That is a FANTASTIC idea. I think it would require the DSPR300 model rather than the the DSPR120 version though, and a spare temp sensor for the coolant. You'll have to either swap temp sensors and reset the temp limit at boil up or forgo the programmed heatup function. Not a big deal since you'll definitely want to be paying close attention at that point anyway. But it's a good failsafe feature, and will only cost you a second probe. I guess you could manually move the probe from boiler to coolant, depends how you connect to the boiler how easy that will be, and if it's through a thermowell or threaded fitting, I wouldn't.

Actually, thinking specifically for a boka, I'd put the safety sensor above the reflux condenser. Any coolant failure would be detected there as a high temp, where as a complete coolant failure (dead pump) would not overheat all coolant flow paths.

Also, you only linked the ezboil and the SCR, you'll need a heat sink (mounted with thermal grease) and probably a small fan on the SCR if it's not already there.

[Sandslinger]

Low wines is the result of stripping a wash. You need to strip to get low wines.

That much I am clear on, it just doesn't make the premise of boka being good for running strip as opposed to wash make any more sense to me. Strip is the verb upon which the wash is the object. Maybe I am missing something obvious here?

[Sandslinger]

I have considered using it to make a temperature failsafe that switches the still off should the cooling water get too hot(or the area above the condenser).

That is a FANTASTIC idea. I think it would require the DSPR300 model rather than the the DSPR120 version though, and a spare temp sensor for the coolant. You'll have to either swap temp sensors and reset the temp limit at boil up or forgo the programmed heatup function. Not a big deal since you'll definitely want to be paying close attention at that point anyway. But it's a good failsafe feature, and will only cost you a second probe. I guess you could manually move the probe from boiler to coolant, depends how you connect to the boiler how easy that will be, and if it's through a thermowell or threaded fitting, I wouldn't.

Actually, thinking specifically for a boka, I'd put the safety sensor above the reflux condenser. Any coolant failure would be detected there as a high temp, where as a complete coolant failure (dead pump) would not overheat all coolant flow paths.

Also, you only linked the ezboil and the SCR, you'll need a heat sink (mounted with thermal grease) and probably a small fan on the SCR if it's not already there.

Having it on top, rather than in the cooling water makes so much more sense considering the double failure risk you point out, thank you .

I'm looking forward to getting the part and learning how to use it best, if I have to upgrade to get the safety feature later I will. I was aiming for just controlling the heat by power rather than using autoboil function, but that's just because I have no experience with it. I guess there is some value to getting the 'feel' of how a still handles going to boil, rather than going automatic right off the bat.


. I have the heat sink and the seller actually threw in a temp gauge, and some buttons as a last minute bonus after we sealed the deal


The other two safety features I was thinking to use is a heat resistant balloon mounted to the air safety outlet at the top giving me a clear visual cue that the cooling is underperforming if the balloon starts inflating and alerting me by audibly popping at some point, and basically mounting a camera conversation between my two phones so I can have visuals even if I need to step out of the room.

[Expat]

The other two safety features I was thinking to use is a heat resistant balloon mounted to the air safety outlet at the top giving me a clear visual cue that the cooling is underperforming if the balloon starts inflating and alerting me by audibly popping at some point, and basically mounting a camera conversation between my two phones so I can have visuals even if I need to step out of the room.

Some use a metal whistle to the same effect.

[NZChris]

I have considered using it to make a temperature failsafe that switches the still off should the cooling water get too hot(or the area above the condenser).

I have a latched relay with temperature controller that can be connected to switch an element on and off. The thermocouple can be put anywhere I want to watch, like at the top of a Bokakob or the outlet from a condenser, and it switches the power off to the element if the temperature reaches the setpoint.

[Saltbush Bill]

That much I am clear on, it just doesn't make the premise of boka being good for running strip as opposed to wash make any more sense to me. Strip is the verb upon which the wash is the object. Maybe I am missing something obvious here?

Im not sure what you dont understand? Its really very simple, Yummy was trying to tell you its better to run strip/ low wines in a boka because it will make a cleaner and better product.

[Yummyrum]

Sandslinger, I’m sorry if I have caused you confusion . Perhaps English isn’t your first language.

Yes are correct , wash is stripped in a Pot still and called low wines .... but it is often also called strip . It was probably not my best choice of the noun .

[Sandslinger]

Sandslinger, I’m sorry if I have caused you confusion . Perhaps English isn’t your first language.

Yes are correct , wash is stripped in a Pot still and called low wines .... but it is often also called strip . It was probably not my best choice of the noun .

Ahh thanks, yes its second language but I was mostly confused because I didn't realise it was normal to strip wash in a pot still as opposed to using boka in reflux mode for both runs

I have actually been wanting to ask about the wash distillation. I keep seeing comments that heat treating the yeast in the wash is in large part what creates the undesirable by-products and that no amount of filtering/chemical treating will rid the wash of all the yeast.
This led me to consider using a metal version of a condensation still, which works by heating the wash to no more than 50c and then letting slow condensation separate the alcohol out over a day or two..

Does anyone have experience creating low wine using this method

It should be noted that the other reason why I am considering this method is because in full aeration and with an element unable to create more than 50c and a method that creates 40% abv maximum it's the only method I trust to run unattended.

[still_stirrin]

Ahh ... it’s a second language but I was mostly confused because ... it's the only method I trust to run unattended.

Running a still “unattended” is NOT adviseable in any language. We don’t promote it here, in fact, you are admonished to NEVER run your still unattended, automated or otherwise!
ss

[Sandslinger]

Ahh ... it’s a second language but I was mostly confused because ... it's the only method I trust to run unattended.

Running a still “unattended” is NOT adviseable in any language. We don’t promote it here, in fact, you are admonished to NEVER run your still unattended, automated or otherwise!
ss

I respect your opinion, but perhaps you could have said it without misquoting me, picking on my language skills just so you could add little poetic drama to your opinion.

[zed255]

Sandslinger, some things here may not be a set rule, such as still automation and attending a running still, but are considered a safety concern in this community. Discussion of automation leads to thoughts of unattended operation. Issue is that should something fail you could be creating a fire or explosion hazard and that reflects badly on home distillation as a viable hobby activity. You WILL get jumped on for such things.

There are a number of anecdotal tales here of a still going awry when its operator stepped away. Do not rely on technology to prevent a problem. A few years ago, just several doors down on my street, was a still explosion. It wasn't being watched (luckily the whole family was out) and based on the best information I can get (I have family on the local FD) it appears a cooling line got occluded causing a build up of ethanol vapour. When the water heater cycled on there was an explosion that lifted the roof off the house (no BS, walked the dog past there daily and could see the roof lifted and sitting oddly). Interestingly, there were no charges related to distilling but some other careless type of charge. Took months to get the house fixed and habitable.

I am never more than a few steps from my still during a run and can always see and hear it. If I need to step further away than that I either get my wife to attend it (she doesn't know a ton about running a still but can change a jar and kill the power where necessary) or interrupt the run. Period. Automating some aspects of the process I'm sure can be useful but full automation is not community sanctioned, rule or no rule. Leaving a running still unattended is a flat out safety no-no, remote monitored or otherwise. You are assumed to be a reasonable and responsible adult and you can do as you please, but some things are best not discussed here.

[Sandslinger]

Sandslinger,

Just out of curiosity did either of you understand what type of still i am talking about?

I never said i wanted to make any automated features on either still, I think you thought so because the poster above me misquoted me so it seems like I did. Which really does show the power of misquoting people.

I was talking about having video monitoring of a Boka so I could go shit, and then I asked about a outside passive condensation unit running at 50c, neither has any automated feature.

If you disagree with a passive collector fine i respect that, it just didn't seem like either of you understood what I was talking about.

[zed255]

Still_stirrin made a selective quote, yes. But you did originally make a suggestion with regards to what you trusted to allow the still to run without your physical presence. I see the first post has been edited to remove the part that started this tangent.

You seem to have taken my response poorly, I meant nothing hurtful. There are some triggers here that will result in a thread going down the tubes, and stepping away from a still for any reason is one. I wasn't trying to hang you out, just explaining the 'culture' here.

I still stand by my post though. Need to make #2, either get someone else who knows how to shut it down attend in your brief absence or shut it off. There are examples posted here of incidence occurring in less time than a trip to the toilet might take. I said my piece, I'm out on this topic.

[NZChris]

If you disagree with a passive collector fine i respect that, it just didn't seem like either of you understood what I was talking about.

They probably didn't and neither do I. It could be a language thing, maybe we know it by another name. If you don't want to be misunderstood when discussing a device that you suspect some of your audience might not be familiar with, post a link to it.

[Sandslinger]

If you disagree with a passive collector fine i respect that, it just didn't seem like either of you understood what I was talking about.

They probably didn't and neither do I. It could be a language thing, maybe we know it by another name. If you don't want to be misunderstood when discussing a device that you suspect some of your audience might not be familiar with, post a link to it.

Yes good point, I actually tried to find some but didn't find it anywhere. The only resources I ever seen is not in English anyways.

Think a solar still, something like this https://images.app.goo.gl/TW1EXpB8iwmHwwNe8

Operating temperature is between 30-50c or 122 Fahrenheit achieved by either a hot day or the heater type that is used for heating fruits for fermentation that goes to max 122F.

Its placed somewhere safe from fires and over a few days the condensation will trickle down into the container of your choice at around 40abv or lower if you design it that way. I've seen numbers of 9ltr wash cleared in 24h at 50° centigrade(122fahrenheit) posted.

So my original question was that considering the amount of resources that say that high heat applied to the yeast is partially responsible for the nastiest byproducts, wont using this solution to separate out yeast/alcohol prevent that entirely ?

[NZChris]

Don't put the yeast in the still.

[zapata]

So my original question was that considering the amount of resources that say that high heat applied to the yeast is partially responsible for the nastiest byproducts, wont using this solution to separate out yeast/alcohol prevent that entirely ?

Maybe? It's certainly not a new technology, and I gotta think if it was massively better then lots more people would be doing it. I think you are just reading to much into a not really a problem. It is entirely possible to craft smoother than water booze using high heat. Do you want to scorch yeast in anything? No, so don't do that. If you think a low temp slow evaporation setup is a way to do that, it probably is. But it is far from the only way, and I wouldn't really consider it any easier, cheaper, faster or better than normal means.

[The Baker]

Thanks, Sandslinger.

One day, one day I will have a solar still.

Geoff

[Expat]

My still is a combo nuclear and hydro powered, I just don't keep them on-site.