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Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:35 pm**

Somewhere in the hundreds of threads I read on here I remember seeing someone write that once they tried said neutral wash they would never go back to birdwatchers. For the life of me I can’t find it again.

Is there a better easier neutral Wash than birdwatchers now?

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:39 pm**

I haven't tried it myself, but Shady's Sugar Shine seems to be getting quite a following. I have been happy with my own twist on the Deathwish Wheat Germ and Teddy's Fast Fermenting Vodka is similar.

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:40 pm**

Are there noticeable and better differences in taste between them or is it mostly about simplicity?

From what I remember you can’t beat the simplicity of birdwatchers all sugar wash.

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:46 pm**

Some seem to feel Birdwatchers has a slightly disagreeable flavour on the back end of the palate. I can't say because though I do often use tomato paste it is a secondary ingredient for me. I don't find it lends anything of consequence, but I'm not relying on it solely.

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:09 pm**

Some others including WPOSW and SSS make cleaner spirit than TPW imo.

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:19 pm**

they might have been talking about the FFV wash?
i use that now rather than TPW.

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:22 pm**

What is FFV & TPW?

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:48 pm**

Teddysad's Fast Fermenting Vodka (FFV) and Birdwatcher's Tomato Paste Wash (TPW)

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:26 am**

Forgetting about simplicity. What would you all say is the smoother more traditional vodka?

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 am**

jayka wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:26 am Forgetting about simplicity. What would you all say is the smoother more traditional vodka?

I prefer Rad’s All Bran for “neutrals”. It’s easy to make, a good fermenter, and a clean finisher. The bran flakes buffers a crashing pH and softens the “sugar bite”. I (personally) prefer grain-based neutrals and the all bran recipe emulates that reasonably well. Ideally, a wheat malt, or unmalted wheat recipe would make the best vodka (to my preference, but ymmv).

But, the secret to a good neutral (a.k.a - vodka) is how you process it. I always distill it at least twice, stripped through the potstill and then refluxed to a high %ABV in my LM/VM reflux still. And sometimes, I even triple distill it, running the high wines back through my small gin still (a stock pot potstill).

Always make conservative cuts, making sure to clear the heads and late heads before collecting your “neutral hearts”. And adding a little of the “late hearts” will give you a touch more of the base spirit’s flavor to your vodka, ie - a grain-based recipe. But be gentle with this when blending, as you can easily overdo it.

Neutrals (vodka) is a broad palette as there are many commercial examples on the shelves. Pick your favorite and the work to make a spirit like it, but be sure to “make it your own”, that is - BETTER.
ss

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:21 am**

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 am
jayka wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:26 am Forgetting about simplicity. What would you all say is the smoother more traditional vodka?
I prefer Rad’s All Bran for “neutrals”. It’s easy to make, a good fermenter, and a clean finisher. The bran flakes buffers a crashing pH and softens the “sugar bite”. I (personally) prefer grain-based neutrals and the all bran recipe emulates that reasonably well. Ideally, a wheat malt, or unmalted wheat recipe would make the best vodka (to my preference, but ymmv).

But, the secret to a good neutral (a.k.a - vodka) is how you process it. I always distill it at least twice, stripped through the potstill and then refluxed to a high %ABV in my LM/VM reflux still. And sometimes, I even triple distill it, running the high wines back through my small gin still (a stock pot potstill).

Always make conservative cuts, making sure to clear the heads and late heads before collecting your “neutral hearts”. And adding a little of the “late hearts” will give you a touch more of the base spirit’s flavor to your vodka, ie - a grain-based recipe. But be gentle with this when blending, as you can easily overdo it.

Neutrals (vodka) is a broad palette as there are many commercial examples on the shelves. Pick your favorite and the work to make a spirit like it, but be sure to “make it your own”, that is - BETTER.
ss

Thanks SS that's an awesome answer. Cheers

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:32 am**

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 am
But, the secret to a good neutral (a.k.a - vodka) is how you process it. I always distill it at least twice, stripped through the potstill and then refluxed to a high %ABV in my LM/VM reflux still. And sometimes, I even triple distill it, running the high wines back through my small gin still (a stock pot potstill).

Now this is something I have contemplated but not yet tried, 'finifhing' my neutral through a pot still. I'm going to proof it down anyhow, so why not get at least part way in one last stilling operation, and an opportunity to 'soften' it some. I have been stripping in a pot still and then refluxing my neutrals, but I think I will give a final pot still run a try.

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:59 am**

Birdwatchers is a nonsense hype. A neutral is just sugar + nutrients + yeast.

Make invert syrup from sugar (boil 1 kg of sugar in 2 liters of water)- Add the syrup to the water until OG is 1080 - Add some good nutrients (I suggest Yeast Bomb) - Pitch yeast when the temperature is down to 28-30 Celsius degrees.

That is all!

No need for tomato paste bs and stuff. We are not in prison lol.

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:21 am**

Nonsense huh?
Maybe you should tell the many thousands of newbs including my self who made it as there first wash that.
What ever you might think of it, its a useful and easy wash for first timers.
For what its worth I know of at least one Commercial distillery that uses it as a base for thier gins which have won more than a couple of awards.
It might not be my first choice of neutral washes.....but I wouldnt call it BS either......there are far worse out there.

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:55 am**

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 am Neutrals (vodka) is a broad palette as there are many commercial examples on the shelves. Pick your favorite and the work to make a spirit like it, but be sure to “make it your own”, that is - BETTER.
ss

Nuff said, SS

Could only add here that commercial Russian Vodkas are normally charcoaled after they're proofed down to 40% AbV. I don't suppose it's "normal", though...

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:01 am**

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 am
jayka wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:26 am Forgetting about simplicity. What would you all say is the smoother more traditional vodka?
I prefer Rad’s All Bran for “neutrals”. It’s easy to make, a good fermenter, and a clean finisher. The bran flakes buffers a crashing pH and softens the “sugar bite”. I (personally) prefer grain-based neutrals and the all bran recipe emulates that reasonably well. Ideally, a wheat malt, or unmalted wheat recipe would make the best vodka (to my preference, but ymmv).

But, the secret to a good neutral (a.k.a - vodka) is how you process it. I always distill it at least twice, stripped through the potstill and then refluxed to a high %ABV in my LM/VM reflux still. And sometimes, I even triple distill it, running the high wines back through my small gin still (a stock pot potstill).

Always make conservative cuts, making sure to clear the heads and late heads before collecting your “neutral hearts”. And adding a little of the “late hearts” will give you a touch more of the base spirit’s flavor to your vodka, ie - a grain-based recipe. But be gentle with this when blending, as you can easily overdo it.

Neutrals (vodka) is a broad palette as there are many commercial examples on the shelves. Pick your favorite and the work to make a spirit like it, but be sure to “make it your own”, that is - BETTER.
ss

Im with you.
I use straight wheat with 20% wheat malt
Makes a great neutral

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:05 am**

dukethebeagle120 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:01 am
still_stirrin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 am
jayka wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:26 am Forgetting about simplicity. What would you all say is the smoother more traditional vodka?
I prefer Rad’s All Bran for “neutrals”. It’s easy to make, a good fermenter, and a clean finisher. The bran flakes buffers a crashing pH and softens the “sugar bite”. I (personally) prefer grain-based neutrals and the all bran recipe emulates that reasonably well. Ideally, a wheat malt, or unmalted wheat recipe would make the best vodka (to my preference, but ymmv).

But, the secret to a good neutral (a.k.a - vodka) is how you process it. I always distill it at least twice, stripped through the potstill and then refluxed to a high %ABV in my LM/VM reflux still. And sometimes, I even triple distill it, running the high wines back through my small gin still (a stock pot potstill).

Always make conservative cuts, making sure to clear the heads and late heads before collecting your “neutral hearts”. And adding a little of the “late hearts” will give you a touch more of the base spirit’s flavor to your vodka, ie - a grain-based recipe. But be gentle with this when blending, as you can easily overdo it.

Neutrals (vodka) is a broad palette as there are many commercial examples on the shelves. Pick your favorite and the work to make a spirit like it, but be sure to “make it your own”, that is - BETTER.
ss
Im with you.
I use straight wheat with 20% wheat malt
Makes a great neutral
I don't count distillations though.
I strip,do a cleaning run then smell the leftovers in the still.
If it smells i run it again.
If it does another cleaning run happens.
Smell again.
If the water smells clean then i will spirit run it
If not repeat till i get the results i want
Just the way i do it

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:53 am**

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:21 am Nonsense huh?
Maybe you should tell the many thousands of newbs including my self who made it as there first wash that.
What ever you might think of it, its a useful and easy wash for first timers.
For what its worth I know of at least one Commercial distillery that uses it as a base for thier gins which have won more than a couple of awards.
It might not be my first choice of neutral washes.....but I wouldnt call it BS either......there are far worse out there.

Birdwatchers recipe:

3 cups tomato paste

Juice 3 lemons

Approx. 18 kg sugar

225 grams fresh regular bakers yeast. Buy in bulk at any good health food store.

water(I use spring well water)

Procedure:

Keep careful notes from start to finish for future reference.

Carefully mix paste, juice, say 14 kg sugar with 60 liters water at 30C. Measure SG.
(you are aiming for 1.09)

Carefully add water and sugar to bring mixture to 80 liter, WITH A SG 1.09.
Temperature of finished mixture should be 30C-35C to start.

You should now have 80 liters of mixed ingredients.

Carefully sprinkle 225 grams of yeast over surface, stirring in.
Place cover loosely, to let CO2 escape, keeping flying nasties out.
There is so much CO2 coming off; there is no need to worry about oxygen coming in contact.

Place bottomless styrofoam box over fermenter. Dangle lit lightbulb through small
hole in lid. Bulb must be strong enough to keep the mixture at a steady range of
30C-35C for entire fermentation. Size of bulb depends on room temperature. Stick
your digital thermometer through side of box to track inside temperature.

{A good idea would be to set up with water a day before you begin wash to determine
the size of light bulb to maintain water/wash in the 30-35C range.}

Check SG and temperature daily

Stir daily

On day three, syphon contents evenly into four 23 liter airlocked carboys.
(This step may not be nessesary and I may at some future date simply take the wash from start
to finish in the unairlocked storage container)

Check SG and temperature daily

Shake carboys gently daily.

After a total of 7-8 days SG should be .995. If not, wait until completion.

My (or any sane person's) neutral recipe:

Make invert syrup from sugar (boil 1 kg of sugar in 2 liters of water)- Add the syrup to the water until OG is 1080 - Add some good nutrients (I suggest Yeast Bomb) - Pitch yeast when the temperature is down to 28-30 Celsius degrees - Distill when the FG is down to 1000.

Which one is easier?

Besides, you don't get any silly tomato paste after-taste in your wash.

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:02 am**

I would take 1/2 liter of water to 1 kylo of sugar. And I would add some lemon acid to invert it better while boiling.

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:21 am**

VLAGAVULVIN wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:02 am I would take 1/2 liter of water to 1 kylo of sugar. And I would add some lemon acid to invert it better while boiling.

Actually citric acid doesn't help sugar invert better. All it does is to stop crystallizing sugar if the syrup will wait for a while before being used.

As for 1/2 liters of water for 1 kg of sugar; why not? It will just make a thicker syrup if that's what you like. Final result of the wash will be exactly the same compared to 2 liters of water for 1 kg of sugar.

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:00 pm**

Good stuff here.

Just picked up the stuff for shadys recipe. Might as well just try that and the wheat one. Although from what I’ve read I think I’ll be skipping birdwatchers.

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:56 pm**

I started with George's Goo (kale wash) and find it to be very easy, bit slow but makes a good neutral for gin.

I don't invert sugar. Boiling sugar and water will have little effect on inversion unless acid is added. Inversion is breaking the glucose and fructose bond in sucrose (crystals). That's why inverted syrup will not crystalize.

Posted: **Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:40 pm**

Cooking my invert is just a tribute to tradition. Sanitization? Maybe, no. A lot I care about if I finally reflux it all...

As per the citric acid... The amount of acid (3-5g per 1kg) affects only the reaction rate (syrup preparation time) and pushes the pH lower (not bad in the beg. of fermentation). A good cheap catalyst: so, why not?

Posted: **Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:13 pm**

Wow. This recipe from shady is voracious. Within an hour or so of pitching yeast it was vigorously boiling away.

Posted: **Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 pm**

IDPotatohead wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:13 pm Wow. This recipe from shady is voracious. Within an hour or so of pitching yeast it was vigorously boiling away.

And quick to drop too. Making recipe day 1.085 day 2 1.040

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:30 am**

Birdwatchers (TPW) was my great stepping stone from Turbos .
The improvement in taste and cleanness over Turbos was astonishing .
The only downside was the acceptance that 8kg of sugar down to 5kg per wash made a significantly less amount of booze .

I tried Wheatbix all bran and had varying successes .
Tried Winos sugar wash and it was OK .

Teds FFV was also a good one and the sugar is now 4kg per wash .The trick with this wash is less sugar ferments quickly and with a good kick up the arse for the yeast .

But my goto now is pretty much a home made mongrel mix of them all .

For a 200 liter fermenter .( filled to 180L)
32kg sugar .( thats about the same the same as Teds FFV sugar ratio ) Bring to the boil with about 15liters of water and about 2-3 teaspoons of Citric acid .
( I don’t know or care much if this inversion process really helps ... but it certainly makes dissolving sugar easy ... and raises initial temp

)

Dump it onto the fermenter ( after adding some cold water first , so the damn fermenter doesn’t warp )
Top up to about 180 liters . Squirting the hose in will aerate in nicely .

Add about a teaspoon of Epsom salts , about 4-6 Crushed up Vitamin B1 tablets . A handful of Shell grit ( from the chook pen) and pour two cans of Lowans bread yeast on top .

Job done

Notice ... no DAP .Sure , it doesn’t froth and foam like a mad thing ... but its up and running in Less than 24 hrs , and thats good enough for me .

Edit : forgot to mention , I also bring a 500g bag of Wheat bran and a dozen weetbix to the boil and add them . ... whoops ... slightly important .

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:38 am**

Alkyholik wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 pm
IDPotatohead wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:13 pm Wow. This recipe from shady is voracious. Within an hour or so of pitching yeast it was vigorously boiling away.
And quick to drop too. Making recipe day 1.085 day 2 1.040

Strange. Mine is going pretty slow. Only put it at 7.5% potential and after a week it's still at 1.015

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:42 am**

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:30 am But my goto now is pretty much a home made mongrel mix of them all .

Just call it the White Mongrel

across breed trained and transversely experienced.

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