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Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:58 am
by Bee
I'm building a shotgun condenser for use with tap water and would like to hear any ideas y'all have for measuring the coolant water output temp. I'd like to optimize that temperature with an eye towards minimizing water use.
So, how do you attach a thermometer? Make the output long enough for a stick-on tape thermometer? How long is that?
What is the ideal output temperature?
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:04 am
by Durhommer
I dont use tap I have a barrel of water next to my still I pump thru the condenser. Whenever it feels like its warm I add a bag of ice or frozen pop bottles
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:48 am
by Bee
At $3.60/1,000 gallons, I'm def not going to buy ice or pumps.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:39 am
by silverbean
I don't know if there is an ideal temperature it would depend on individual setup. Would have to experiment with product output temp to find the coolant temp.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:41 am
by OtisT
Just go by touch.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:45 am
by The Baker
OtisT wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:41 am
Just go by touch.
As the actress said to the bishop.
Geoff
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:49 am
by Expat
Bee wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:58 am
I'm building a shotgun condenser for use with tap water and would like to hear any ideas y'all have for measuring the coolant water output temp. I'd like to optimize that temperature with an eye towards minimizing water use.
So, how do you attach a thermometer? Make the output long enough for a stick-on tape thermometer? How long is that?
What is the ideal output temperature?
The measure of condenser efficiency is temperature change.
You should be able to get your distillate temp to near input water temp, and your output water temp as hot as you dare. I keep my water temp below 160f because otherwise my still room turns into a jungle.
Water volume is immaterial.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:09 pm
by Yummyrum
Just run your hand up the condenser when its running . You should feel a temp gradient along the length . Cold at the bottom , burning hot at the top . Halfway along it should be warm to the touch .
When you have achieved this , your condenser is running at best efficiency and using bare minimum water .
The water exiting the condenser will be steaming hot like Expat said .
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:28 pm
by Bee
Thanks guys.
I got to thinking that water output temp doesn't matter - it's the product that has to be below it's boiling point.
Do you guys have an upper limit for product temp?
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:39 pm
by Expat
Bee wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:28 pm
Thanks guys.
I got to thinking that water output temp doesn't matter - it's the product that has to be below it's boiling point.
Do you guys have an upper limit for product temp?
I like mine to be room temp 72 ish, less correction required for my hydrometer. For stripping runs I let it get hotter maybe 85, not too much more as I don't want my large glassware getting too hot.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:14 pm
by StillerBoy
Bee wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:58 am
So, how do you attach a thermometer?
If you have a temp probe, tape it about 1/2" below the outlet of the condenser.. if you don't have a probe, stick a thermometer into a one liter jar in the sink with a thermometer in it at the end of outlet hose..
Bee wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:58 am
What is the ideal output temperature?
Maintain 85*F temp, both for pot mode or reflux mode for best performance..
Mars
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:58 pm
by Mr Self Destruct
I installed a brass tee on the output of my reflux condenser as well as my shotgun condenser. I made my own thermowells using brass tube, solder and brass plugs for each. I installed one of these
cheap thermometers in each thermowell. I typically run my reflux condenser around 106F-130F and the shotgun around 100F-140F. I control both condensers using 1/4" polypropylene hoses and each with a small brass needle valve.
The water is barely dribbling out of the shotgun. Any slower and it would be a trickle. Once you have thermometers installed in thermowells you'll be the better judge of what temp to run your condensers. A good gradient is what you're looking for which will allow for some fudge factor for drops in water pressure if you're using well water yet use less water as possible.
The only thing I wish I could upgrade to is a thermometer with a temp alarm for the reflux condenser. Not necessary with the shotgun. I've had the temp over-shoot a few times when trying to tune the reflux condenser when I wasn't paying attention. Small adjustments to the needle valve makes coarse changes to temp and the changes are not immediate. Both needle valves are nearly closes when running. It takes quite a while before temp stabilizes. If you neglect to watch it, it will spike before you know it.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:25 pm
by Saltbush Bill
Personal opinion is that all this talk of thermometers is huge over kill, I'm very glad that I don't need more than a finger tip as a temperature censor to run a still properly. This aint rocket science.......use your senses folks.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:25 pm
by shadylane
I've got thermometers all over my still
And the batteries have long ago run dead
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:30 pm
by shadylane
Bee wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:58 am
I'd like to optimize that temperature with an eye towards minimizing water use.
Don't worry about the waste water temp
Use the minimum amount of water needed for the alcohol to come out cool.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:01 pm
by Tater
Mr Self Destruct wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:58 pm
I installed a brass tee on the output of my reflux condenser as well as my shotgun condenser. I made my own thermowells using brass tube, solder and brass plugs for each. I installed one of these
cheap thermometers in each thermowell. I typically run my reflux condenser around 106F-130F and the shotgun around 100F-140F. I control both condensers using 1/4" polypropylene hoses and each with a small brass needle valve.
The water is barely dribbling out of the shotgun. Any slower and it would be a trickle. Once you have thermometers installed in thermowells you'll be the better judge of what temp to run your condensers. A good gradient is what you're looking for which will allow for some fudge factor for drops in water pressure if you're using well water yet use less water as possible.
The only thing I wish I could upgrade to is a thermometer with a temp alarm for the reflux condenser. Not necessary with the shotgun. I've had the temp over-shoot a few times when trying to tune the reflux condenser when I wasn't paying attention. Small adjustments to the needle valve makes coarse changes to temp and the changes are not immediate. Both needle valves are nearly closes when running. It takes quite a while before temp stabilizes. If you neglect to watch it, it will spike before you know it.
Guys this is nine inch nails using another id after being banned as 9 in nails and as Oblivion.as well banned using this id .and will be banned again if he comes back. .
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:09 pm
by Deplorable
The only time the water temp coming out of you condenser matters is when you're dumping it on your lawn. Scalding hot water will do just that, scald your lawn.
I pay attention to the temp of the dribble off the end of the PC, not the temp of the waste water. If the dribble is cool and the PC is warm around half way up and hot at the top, I figure I'm using the right amount of water to cool. My wife watches the utility bill, and she ain't never said I'm using too much water.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:58 am
by Twisted Brick
Shotgun condensers are so efficient they render the size of the coolant reservoir the weakness in any system. I was told this here when I first inquired about the rise in my (30gal barrel) coolant temp on my pot still. I went out and got a 50gal barrel but have yet to use it since an elevated temp of 130F won't even make your shotgun blink while maintaining the optimum takeoff rate on both strip or spirit runs.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:44 pm
by jake_jimmylegs
Bee wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:28 pm
Thanks guys.
I got to thinking that water output temp doesn't matter - it's the product that has to be below it's boiling point.
Do you guys have an upper limit for product temp?
If I see steam in the jar and/or it starts to feel 'warm' in the last 10-12 inches of the liebig I bump up the water speed.
I don't use temps anymore, save for checking the boiler to see when it's getting close to boiling and adjusting abv measurements.
My Liebig will cool 10 litres of product from a 55 litre keg, (full 3" from bottom of neck) and use not quite 4 x 6 gallon buckets of cold tap water; about 7 hours from lighting the fire to the last jar coming out at 30%. I guess I should add that I could run it faster but that is just how I like it. *edit, forgot it took a half hour to setup the rig from the time I got off of the couch.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:58 am
by RC Al
Theres more than one post on here saying that for an RC, not too far below the vapour temp so that your not wasting energy and efficiency. Really cold reflux will drop back through the column, potentially hitting the boiler before re-boiling again. The further up the column it re-boils, the more stable the equilibrium is in the column and the better the seperation.
Its past midnight here so ill let you go seach for that
Salty's way is plenty good enough, it should be hotter than comfortable to touch, no need for the thermos, chasing a temp there is fairly pointless, it just shouldnt be cool/cold. Dont burn yourself, half a second on and off will let you know soon after, dont hold your fingers there until your brain catches up on the difference - ouch.
Re: Managing Water Use - Condenser Output Temperature
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:03 am
by Alcophile
I just use a finger on the output tubing, the waste water goes down the drain so I'm not worried about its temperature.
I Have wondered about installing an electronic thermometer with an alarm for overtemp to guard against coolant failure and inattention, though I do keep a pretty close eye on it.