ph control with oyster grit

[howie]

finally got around to buying a bag of oyster shells(bird shell grit) for chickens from the local pet store ($21 for 5kg)
most of the shells were 5mm or bigger, so washed them and used a hop bag.
put exactly 2 cups in one bag so i can compare the volume later.
2 identical 25l rum washes
3l bunderberg molasses/3kg raw sugar/5l dunder(not live)/dap/epsom/80gms bakers yeast
big aerate with paint mixer
yeast hydrated and trying to get out of the jar
into the fridge fermenter, controlled at 32C with inkbird.
and we're off, with only one of the washes with oyster shells, hung in the middle of the wash on a SS fishing line
OG 1082 PH 5.3 for both.
1) non oyster - 24hrs absolutely going off it's head, had to take the airlock lines out overnight. SG is 1072, PH is 4.62.
48hrs - still fairly active, airlock lines in ......................................... SG is 1036, PH is 4.32
2) oyster wash - 24hrs no bubbling at all through the airlock, must be escaping somewhere?
perhaps through the grommit where the SS wire is.
lift the lid and there is a frenzy of bubbles around the hop bag and lots of fizzing all over. SG is 1060, PH is 4.74
48hrs - still no action through the airlock but wash is fizzing away SG is 1020, PH is 4.80

so the expected has happened with the PH, but the SG readings are unexpected.
especially with the non oyster wash going nuts.
i might take one more reading tomorrow and if the PH continues to fall in the non-oyster wash, will it be ok to add some shells at ths stage of the proceedings?
the PH looks like it will drop to around 4.00 by tomorrow.

[Saltbush Bill]

Leave it alone it will be fine is my guess.

[howie]

Leave it alone it will be fine is my guess.

thanks.
i'd like it to run it's course to see the results, but didn't want a stalled wash.
looks like the yeasties are happier in the higher PH wash, even though they are going about their business quietly and efficiently.

[Yummyrum]

It won’t stall . You got the temp right ... its going gangbusters ... it will finish . Don’t fuck with it .

[Saltbush Bill]

This is becoming a real problem ..because we have just a few people who are obsessed with PH control all Newbs are beginning to be trained to think that it is a "must do" for all wash types .......that is far from the truth.
Sugar washes may benefit depending on water type/ recipe ingredients/ Wash temperatures and a heap of other factors, Having said that many of us never worried about PH years ago and still had healthy ferments that made great booze..
Have you ever noticed that in the original Tried and True recipes that there is no mention of PH control by the original Authors of those recipes ......Why would that be ?
Grain based washes like UJSSM and Molasses washes should need no PH adjustment to ferment happily as long as you use the correct amount of dunder or backset.
Unfortunately there are some long term distillers who just don't seem to understand that.

[Durhommer]

I only use a ph buffer on my wineos wash cos it seems like it needs it never on my all grain mashes

[howie]

This is becoming a real problem ..because we have just a few people who are obsessed with PH control all Newbs are beginning to be trained to think that it is a "must do" for all wash types .......that is far from the truth.agree, but it doesn't do any harm, especially when using dunder
Sugar washes may benefit depending on water type/ recipe ingredients/ Wash temperatures and a heap of other factors, Having said that many of us never worried about PH years ago and still had healthy ferments that made great booze..and probably some that went bad and they didn't know why
Have you ever noticed that in the original Tried and True recipes that there is no mention of PH control by the original Authors of those recipes ......Why would that be ?because they didn't have PH testers?
Grain based washes like UJSSM and Molasses washes should need no PH adjustment to ferment happily as long as you use the correct amount of dunder or backset.i agree that too much dunder can cause problems in my ltd experience
Unfortunately there are some long term distillers who just don't seem to understand that.

all in good fun SB
i do check the PH of my FFV, just before i add the citric acid recommended in the recipe. then it's on it's own
i have had a few molasses washes stall, i was adding too much acidic dunder, novice error.
and because i was putting on 2 x 25l rum washes, i just thought i'd do a side by side test.
i suppose the main test will be in the taste.
of course we will get the usual "the old distillers never used a PH tester"
a bit like the old pilots who insist on using a compass instead of a modern aviation GPS.
do you still get lost?
'only sometimes'

[Desvio]

I'm from the school of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!

I use a pipette to test a sample of my ferments along the way, and only add shells to it if needed. It's a lot harder to diagnose problems if you over complicate things from the beginning, keep it simple, humans have been fermenting for a very long time just fine without all the high tech farkles.

[Saltbush Bill]

all in good fun SB

Howie not having a go at your experiment at all.
Im glad your doing that.
Just trying to get the point across to newer members that not every wash needs ph adjustment every time.
And that you can make washes without owning a ph meter......people have been doing that successfully for quite a few thousand years.

[shadylane]

I might take one more reading tomorrow and if the PH continues to fall in the non-oyster wash, will it be ok to add some shells at ths stage of the proceedings?
the PH looks like it will drop to around 4.00 by tomorrow.

I'd let the ferments finish as is.
If nothing else, for the experiments sake.
If you could, I'd like to see how the two washes compare after a week.
Just guessing, they will be finished and starting to clear before that.
But I was wondering how the pH compares after the ferments have ended.

[Saltbush Bill]

a bit like the old pilots who insist on using a compass instead of a modern aviation GPS.
do you still get lost?
'only sometimes'

I will happily put my life in the hands of an old pilot using the old ways .....rather than someone who has to to rely on modern gadgetry to find their way from A to B.

[shadylane]

a bit like the old pilots who insist on using a compass instead of a modern aviation GPS.
do you still get lost?
'only sometimes'

I will happily put my life in the hands of an old pilot using the old ways .....rather than someone who has to to rely on modern gadgetry to find their way from A to B.

I like GPS.
It will accurately let me know where I am, right up until it quits.
By then, I've got a good idea what the wind is doing at altitude.
That makes pilotage with a compass, map and clock easier.

[howie]

a bit like the old pilots who insist on using a compass instead of a modern aviation GPS.
do you still get lost?
'only sometimes'

I will happily put my life in the hands of an old pilot using the old ways .....rather than someone who has to to rely on modern gadgetry to find their way from A to B.

i have got my pilots cross country endorsement where you train with compass, map/landmarks & stopwatch.
but the planning can all go to shit when the weather suddenly changes.
i know what i would rather use, avionics GPS>phone software as backup>then compass as a last resort.

[howie]

72 hr readings
non-oyster wash is at 1024 with a PH of 4.43
so the PH has risen from 4.32 in 24 hrs
it's just fizzing along, still trying to lift the lid off the fermenter.

the oyster wash is at 1014 with a PH of 5.03
the PH has risen from 4.80 in 24 hours
just a gentle fizz now, i think it's nearly done

for the sake of SB, i dipped an old compass in both washes and licked it.
the non-oyster has just a little touch of sweetness left, the oyster wash has got that dry, finished fermentation taste.

[Saltbush Bill]

[shadylane]

for the sake of SB, i dipped an old compass in both washes and licked it.

Was the compass pointing in the same direction after you licked it?

[howie]

for the sake of SB, i dipped an old compass in both washes and licked it.

Was the compass pointing in the same direction after you licked it?

i don't know, because HID walked in when i was licking and said "what the hell are you doing?"
i looked sheepishly at the compass, looked sheepishly at the wash, but couldn't come up with an answer.
as she walked out i shouted "it's all SBs fault, he started it"
she wouldn't believe me.
i don't blame her

[The Baker]

Some say whole shells are best.
I use grit only because it is cheaply and readily available.

Geoff

[howie]

ok, i had a quiet day with too much time on my hands
but these are the results of my little experiment.
the 25l wash with oyster consumed 1/2 cup out of the 2 cups in the hop bag.
the wash with oysters never went ballistic in the airlock, but just got on with it's job, looks like the yeasties were happier.
slightly better FG with oysters and there was never any danger of stalling.
i will do this experiment again, as i usually do 2 x 25l washes at a time.
but it looks like i will be adding oyster to rum + dunder washes in future.
then i can put my PH meter and compass away.
they both taste the same, but i will continue to see if there is any difference as i strip them.

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[Demy]

They are in line with the other components, I have fermented sugary washes by adjusting the pH only at the beginning and they have been equally successful as long as they feed the yeast and maintain the proper temperature. But recently I am experimenting with marble that is, I have corrected the pH at the beginning of fermentation and after a few days I insert some pieces of marble and it seems to me that the fermentation is slightly more cheerful ... I think it is a tool like many used only when need, I've never used anything in cereal or fruit ferments (except adjust the pH at the beginning).

[shadylane]

they both taste the same, but i will continue to see if there is any difference as i strip them.

I'm thinking the Rum with shell grit and a 5.1 pH, is going to have a less sugar bite to it.
At least that's what I've found to be true on a thin sugar wash.

[Berserk]

they both taste the same, but i will continue to see if there is any difference as i strip them.

I'm thinking the Rum with shell grit and a 5.1 pH, is going to have a less sugar bite to it.
At least that's what I've found to be true on a thin sugar wash.

That thinking would be in line with Arroyo in his Studies on Rum.

We have found that rums fermented at relatively high pH possess more mellowness and delicacy of taste and aroma.

In the section about pH in a rum fermentation he also claims that high pH rums tend to be heavier. This would be because acetic and formic acids to a higher degree are eliminated, leaving higher fatty acids to form the nicer esters. He goes on to claim that an optimum pH, which sometimes is high, contributes to the production of rum oils.

IIRC he also claims that a lower pH (not crazy low though) will ferment faster, be lighter and have slightly better yield. Don't quote me on that though.

Based on this I suppose there's some credit to controlling the pH of a rum wash, depending on what kind of rum you're aiming to make.

If this stuff interests you I highly recommend reading his Studies on Rum. Boston Apothecary released an English translation of it in December. I've just read parts of it, but those have been very educational. You can find it here: Raphael Arroyo's Studies on Rum (1945)

[shadylane]

Thanks Berserk
I downloaded the book for reading.
Looks like it might take awhile digging around in this rabbit hole

[rubberduck71]

a bit like the old pilots who insist on using a compass instead of a modern aviation GPS.
do you still get lost?
'only sometimes'

I will happily put my life in the hands of an old pilot using the old ways .....rather than someone who has to to rely on modern gadgetry to find their way from A to B.

i have got my pilots cross country endorsement where you train with compass, map/landmarks & stopwatch.
but the planning can all go to shit when the weather suddenly changes.
i know what i would rather use, avionics GPS>phone software as backup>then compass as a last resort.

Stop pissing, Yuri. Give me a stopwatch and a map, and I'll fly the Alps in a plane with no windows.

Name that movie! Anyone, anyone???

[FLOB]

a bit like the old pilots who insist on using a compass instead of a modern aviation GPS.
do you still get lost?
'only sometimes'

I will happily put my life in the hands of an old pilot using the old ways .....rather than someone who has to to rely on modern gadgetry to find their way from A to B.

i have got my pilots cross country endorsement where you train with compass, map/landmarks & stopwatch.
but the planning can all go to shit when the weather suddenly changes.
i know what i would rather use, avionics GPS>phone software as backup>then compass as a last resort.

Stop pissing, Yuri. Give me a stopwatch and a map, and I'll fly the Alps in a plane with no windows.

Name that movie! Anyone, anyone???

If the map is accurate enough.

[rubberduck71]

Correct FLOB!

Great movie and even better book. Like all "typical" guy movies, full of memorable quotes: "Give me a ping Vasili. One ping only, please..."

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[howie]

[/quote]

If the map is accurate enough.
[/quote]
the WAC's are very accurate, but are 1:1000000
training and exams were ok, but that was in a semi-rural area with good landmarks (rivers, railways, powerlines etc).
on one outback trip, we tried flying by compass for a couple of days to hone our skills.
not easy when there are no landmarks, in an almost flat featureless area, and the wind direction can change 180 degrees in just 5000ft of elevation.

[shadylane]

I'm thinking the Rum with shell grit and a 5.1 pH, is going to have a less sugar bite to it.
At least that's what I've found to be true on a thin sugar wash.

That thinking would be in line with Arroyo in his Studies on Rum.

If this stuff interests you I highly recommend reading his Studies on Rum. Boston Apothecary released an English translation of it in December. I've just read parts of it, but those have been very educational. You can find it here: Raphael Arroyo's Studies on Rum (1945)

Here's what was said on page 120. About using calcium carbonate for rum pH control.

"It has been found that the added calcium carbonate will begin to react as soon
as the pH of the mash is lowered appreciably from the setting value, maintaining in
this manner a practically constant pH value during the whole course of fermentation."

[howie]

2nd run with exact same ingredients apart from one thing.
i left the trub in from previous wash and killed it with hot water, and added fresh yeast (as my usual MO)
the starting PH for both washes dropped to 4.53, as opposed to 5.3 from 1st wash(without any trub).
this time, i reckon there was about 1.8 of 2 cups left, hardly any shells used at all.

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[howie]

my thoughts are-
1) obviously the shells affect the PH
2) interesting that using old trub dropped the initial PH by 0.8 (everything else was the same)
3) are shells necessary, well not really, but makes life easier.
i think there are more important things like good ingredients, proper aeration, good yeast.
another major factor IMHO, is keeping the wash at a constant 32c in a controlled fermentation fridge.
with one of these factors failing, the 2nd wash without shells could have been interesting
in the future, will i be using shells in my rum washes, yes.

i have stripped everything last week and kept it all separate, might have a taste test test today.