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How important or necessary is it to add/use the backset for the next run? Does it really increase the flavor that much? Do some mash bills or certain grains have a better production rate than others? Thanks!

It's used mainly to adjust pH for optimal conversion and sour the mash. pH can be adjusted using other acids if you don't have backset, and/or don't want to make a sour mash

Deplorable wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:32 pm It's used mainly to adjust pH for optimal conversion and sour the mash. pH can be adjusted using other acids if you don't have backset, and/or don't want to make a sour mash

I understand the sour mash part, maybe I have never had/tasted a 'sour mash' but why would I want to sour the mash? Maybe I'm missing something here. I've ran quite a bit of whiskey runs but I have never added Backset, just trying to understand if this is THE step im missing out on. Some of the runs that I am working on have tasted great.

By lowering the ph you make the the mash more hospitable to enzymes, helping the conversion as mentioned, and less hospitable to bacteria, giving the yeast an advantage in getting to the sugar first. I'm sure there are many thoughts on what flavors a sour mash contributes. One is that boiling alchohol together with the acids produced in a sour mash creates a variety of esters in the distillate.

I use backset, like bluedog said, to adjust pH when mashing corn. It helps the glucoamylase enzymes to convert starches. It isn’t necessarily for flavor, although with a high percentage of corn in the grainbill, it does help give me a better corn taste. But, I don’t use a lot...only about 1 quart per 10 gallon mash and the backset always comes from a previous strip of bourbon (Special K).

I “can” it when draining the boiler after a run by collecting a quart in a Mason jar. Lid it and let it cool to room temperature and it vacuum seals which preserves it until I need it for another mash. That way, nothing grows on or in it.
ss

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:14 am I use backset, like bluedog said, to adjust pH when mashing corn. It helps the glucoamylase enzymes to convert starches. It isn’t necessarily for flavor, although with a high percentage of corn in the grainbill, it does help give me a better corn taste. But, I don’t use a lot...only about 1 quart per 10 gallon mash and the backset always comes from a previous strip of bourbon (Special K).

I “can” it when draining the boiler after a run by collecting a quart in a Mason jar. Lid it and let it cool to room temperature and it vacuum seals which preserves it until I need it for another mash. That way, nothing grows on or in it.
ss

That's a good trick. Will "can" some backset from my next run.

The best way to find out is by making a batch on your own using the particulars from a Tried and True recipe. Pertinent discussions regarding effects on flavor and usage are available in HD threads if you search 'using backset'.

To find explanations in threads addressing grain contributions search 'malt tables' or 'grain gravity values'. Also, a lot of the basics can be found by searching homebrewing sites or forums...

BourbonBoi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:25 pm How important or necessary is it to add/use the backset for the next run? Does it really increase the flavor that much?

Backset is neither important or necessary for the next run. Unless perhaps if your a commercial distillery with a reputation for making “Sour-mash Bourbon”. There the practice is justified as preserving consistency of taste between batches. What they don't advertise is the fact that the practice also makes sense from an economic standpoint.

I like to keep one (5 ga.) fermenting bucket working all the time; year round. As soon as it's emptied, it's then recharged the next day (ideally). I'm stingy with yeast too so my process is slow but sure; usually. I've never used any recipe and I seldom duplicate my batches intentionally. I started distilling 9 maybe 10 years ago, cooking my own homemade wine which I had bottled years before, and converted that into brandy.

It depends, but if a spent mash or wash was good, I'll save the major portion of it after it's cooled; in 1 gal. plastic juice jugs. I may add this to future ferments as needed; as a filler. I figure that with some backsets, there is still a wealth of good vitamins, minerals and nutrients floating around in there. Sometimes there might be leftover un-converted starches and undigested sugars too. Why throw that good stuff away if you can still make use of it ?

But I've also learned the hard way that you can't just throw more grain or sugar and yeast (or your sister's homemade jelly) back on top of pure back-set only, and expect it to work every time. It can get too acidic for the yeast, in a hurry. Must have something to do with the robbing of electrons during the formation of ethanol molecules.

Anyway, to use backset the way I frequently try to do, you have to add fresh water to every new batch. And also introduce some passive source of alkaline (like calcium oxide, limestone or seashells) to counteract the acidity.

Thanks for the info! I am currently working a Rye mash with a little bit of corn added, I run the same mash bill and haven't had any issues, I was just curious if I was missing something. I have no experience with a 'sour mash' and don't feel I need to with my current plan. I guess I will pay attention to the pH more. I know that I could have found this all out by reading, reading, reading and searching but its tough to gain knowledge through some of the comments, thanks for the help.

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:14 am I use backset, like bluedog said, to adjust pH when mashing corn. It helps the glucoamylase enzymes to convert starches.

I use backset for the same purpose.
Instead of "canning" it. I freeze it and make really big ice cubes.
I figure it helps to cool the mash to gluco temp.

I do not use backset, and as a former DSP, we did not use backset. Baking soda/oyster shells and citric acid can help you adjust your small all grain mashes just fine to stay within the right fermentation range. The thing with backset, is you usually have to keep it going and replenish batch after batch, so unless your making a crap load of spirits, and you have a place to store it, whether that be it frozen, or chilled to keep it from getting infected.... it's probably more hassle than help.

Now, maybe your just trying to mimic a specific mash bill form a large distillery in TN or KY, i suppose it might make sense then. However to me, and as Contrahead eludes to, it's more of an economy of scale to justify the using the backset.

it's real important if you're making Old Crow

I’ve tried using backset, but the acidity just gets too low. Ironically, I live in an area with fairly alkaline water.

My opinion, which is not worth a whole lot......if its left over then why would I add more tails to the next run? If you ran your still right and made the right cuts, then all this is is junk, why add it to next run to increase the amount of junk in the next batch? Now, I could be 100% wrong and probably am, but to me its like, once I remove the heads/foreshots why would I add those to the next run?

You seem a little confused WRM. Backset is what is left in your boiler after a run.......heads and fores are not Backset.
Heads is considered to be feints and can be added back and are by many.
Backset is added to control wash PH and to increase flavour......two very good reasons to use it.

WRMJ397 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:22 pm if its left over then why would I add more tails to the next run?

Backset comes from the boiler after completing a strip run. Leftover boiler contents from a spirit run are discarded.

BourbonStreet wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:42 pm I’ve tried using backset, but the acidity just gets too low. Ironically , I live in an area with fairly alkaline water.

I can’t speak of Backset, bit I can speak of Dunder ( the backset equivalent ) used in Rum

There is an accumulative pH lowering that occurs in Dunder . ( Backset too )
The trick is to not use so much .
It is natural to think , Dunder will make my next batch tastier ,so I’ll add a bit more . Bzzzzzt ….. wrong

That will make things worse . Less Dunder is better than more.Around 10% of the total wash and it stabilises.

Twisted Brick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:20 pm Backset comes from the boiler after completing a strip run.

Or from the boiler of a still used to single run, such as a plated column.

If I’m stripping an AG i’ll dump the boiling backset onto more corn / oats for the second ferment on the spent grains then pH adjust to 4-4.5 before adding malts and enzymes. Significantly more than 10% but pH adjusted. Seems like it’s coming out of the boiler in the low 3’s even after multiple generations but it is already hot so…

BourbonStreet wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:42 pm I’ve tried using backset, but the acidity just gets too low. Ironically, I live in an area with fairly alkaline water.

Backset gradually grows more acidic over subsequent generations. This is what originally caused my reduction from 1 gal to 1 qt per 12gal mashes. Now I start over after 3 or 4 re-uses.

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:34 pm You seem a little confused WRM. Backset is what is left in your boiler after a run.......heads and fores are not Backset.
Heads is considered to be feints and can be added back and are by many.
Backset is added to control wash PH and to increase flavour......two very good reasons to use it.

My thought was that would be tails, what is left in the boiler after it's shut down. I knew about feints and heads that its better used as fire stater or sticker goo removal. My simple mind thought if it's not good enough to be hearts the first time why would it make the cut again. But, I am new to this game and am willing to learn as I can.

Thank you!!!!

Twisted Brick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:20 pm

WRMJ397 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:22 pm if its left over then why would I add more tails to the next run?

Backset comes from the boiler after completing a strip run. Leftover boiler contents from a spirit run are discarded.

Again a sign of my ignorance. One would not reuse the leftovers of a spirt run, I get it now.

Thank you.

WRMJ397 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:06 pm knew about feints and heads that its better used as fire stater or sticker goo removal.

Heads are a part of what we call feints.....they are not just used as fire lighter.
Many people return heads to the next run of the same spirit....others choose to keep them until there is enough to do a " feints run".
There is a lot of good ethanol left in heads imo.