Mistakes were made, need advice on next batch.

[Granham]

First time making birdwatchers sugar shine, used:
90l water
20kg sugar
600g tomato paste
3 lemons
250g yeast

Mistake #1
It fermented for 12 days and we distilled it at 9.5%(the wash). I wanted to do it after 7-8 days but my partner was against it since it was still bubbling/fermenting. Temperature was consistently around 35 celsius, slightly higher on a few days.
The stripping run yielded 35l.
Mistake #2
For the second run/cut making my partner only stripped the first 2 liters. He kept everything else together. He usually does this when making schnapps since the flavor difference is minimal. So basically no heads/hearts/tails separation. Result was a meh sugar vodka, had a schnapps-like tone for me personally but he said it was fine. (I'm guessing this is due to the no separation and either the heads or tails polluting the flavor)
Mistake #3
Botanicals for maceration were as follows
500g juniper
250g coriander
25g cassia bark
25g lemongrass
25g rose blossom
5g cardamom
10g lemon and orange peel
I wanted to macerate for 24-48 hours max. We ended up macerating it for nearly 96 because of weather conditions preventing us from distilling. I didn't think about taking the bag out. The bag was kept in the pot still during distillation.
The end result is 30 liters of gin @41% . It has a strong cassia/cinnamon smell, the flavor when tasted straight/50% dilluted has a schnapps-like undertone like I said. Most of the taste is coriander and cassia, and some unknown bitterness that doesn't really taste like juniper. Sitting in a 30l demijohn right now I can still hear it bubbling very slightly for some reason.

So this is what I'm thinking for the next run:
1. Same shine recipe, distill when it reaches 8% or after 8 days no matter the %. I'm guessing 12 days is way too much for the ph levels and the temperature was consistently good so that's not a concern for off flavors.
2. Again no cuts on stripping run, do a much stricter second run, something like this:
Throw away first 2l
Collect 5l heads
collect 20l hearts
collect 5l tails
Mix heads & tails with those from last batch, use only 20l hearts for maceration.
Do you think 20l hearts is too generous? Should I collect less hearts and more heads/tails? Assuming the same 30l end yield.
3. Use Odin's recipe this time (finally)
so for 20l hearts that would be
240 grams of juniper
60 grams coriander
10 grams of lemon and orange peel
macerate 2 weeks
NO HERBS IN POT STILL THIS TIME
First cut as long as it's cloudy/the juniper oil comes out, collect everything else (we would dillute it to 30% first for the still).
So last question is for the final distillation we can let the still run all the way? AKA I don't have to stick to Odin's 400ml per 1l since our still doesn't really ever yield 80% alcohol, I can just collect it as long as alcohol comes out? Or is there going to be a large difference in flavor (even though we'd just use hearts for that third run/gin run) if I collect over that 400ml per 1 liter of neutral.

My problem with the current product we made is that the cassia/cinnamon smell and taste dominates when i drink it straight. Juniper is almost nowhere to be found, even though I used a proper ratio. I'm guessing this is because of the 96 hour maceration making the cassia far too strong, or 25 grams is way too much cassia. I guess maceration should only be done with juniper and coriander, and the rest of the botanicals can be added to the still during the run without previous maceration? The other thing is if there is another reason for the schnapps-like off flavor and the hearts taste the same I'm not sure if it's going to be worth the effort to keep trying to do this. My main goal currently is to create something in the tier of beefeater/gordons (london style, strong juniper) and after that my end goal would be to make a flowery gin (something like Hendricks Midsommer). I would definitely call this product "bad" if I bought it at a store. It's actually not that bad when mixed, gets you drunk fast and no hangover at least last night, tried it in a tom collins and need to try it with tonic to be sure 100% if it can be called decent or not. I appreciate any and all advice you guys can give me for the next run, especially for avoiding the schnapps-like taste/off flavor and getting the juniper to come through.

[BlueSasquatch]

Mistake #1: having a partner in this hobby.


Kidding, but also not, if you constantly butt heads, you may want to consider having separate systems and just share in the final product, and converse about the process, allows you both to learn and explore the hobby as you seek best.

IMO, nothing wrong with 2-week ferments, 90% of mine end up being 2-weeks with my last rye whiskey getting done in 1 week, getting above 8% isn't a bad thing, especially for a neutral.

Making cuts is probably advised, I tend to not notice the bad as much and my heart cuts are generous, but I still end up with 1-2 pints of heads and tails each to not use in the main. I would suggest using 1/2 pint jars and just filling each one, setting them aside, when the run is done, take a tiny sip of each, starting in the dead middle. You'll soon be able to pick out where the heads and tails are, your senses are going to be better tools than math in this area, IMO. Especially with a pot-still, alot of variables at play.

My only attempt at Gin ended up tasting and smelling like pine-sol, somehow, can't help you much on that. But I have read arguments for only around 3-4 ingredients, there's always someone that will "get notes of" about 20 different things, but I for one can only ever notice 2-3 flavors.

[still_stirrin]

For a gin, you need to start with a clean neutral, not the sloppy, “catch it all” heads/hearts/tails crap you’re using.

To increase the juniper flavor and aroma, don’t cut so much of the start of the run as that’s when the juniper comes over.

You’re macerating the cassia way too long. pull it out after 8 hours. Or omit it and make a separate flavor essence and blend it back to taste. A little goes a long way.
ss

[Granham]

Mistake #1: having a partner in this hobby.


Kidding, but also not, if you constantly butt heads, you may want to consider having separate systems and just share in the final product, and converse about the process, allows you both to learn and explore the hobby as you seek best.

IMO, nothing wrong with 2-week ferments, 90% of mine end up being 2-weeks with my last rye whiskey getting done in 1 week, getting above 8% isn't a bad thing, especially for a neutral.

Making cuts is probably advised, I tend to not notice the bad as much and my heart cuts are generous, but I still end up with 1-2 pints of heads and tails each to not use in the main. I would suggest using 1/2 pint jars and just filling each one, setting them aside, when the run is done, take a tiny sip of each, starting in the dead middle. You'll soon be able to pick out where the heads and tails are, your senses are going to be better tools than math in this area, IMO. Especially with a pot-still, alot of variables at play.

My only attempt at Gin ended up tasting and smelling like pine-sol, somehow, can't help you much on that. But I have read arguments for only around 3-4 ingredients, there's always someone that will "get notes of" about 20 different things, but I for one can only ever notice 2-3 flavors.

We're in high summer here right now, the temperature of the wash went up to a whopping 42 degrees one day because we had a 40 celsius heat wave. I think at that high of a temp 2 weeks could be a bit much esp with the higher sugar content. The problem with pint jars is that i don't exactly have 70-80 jars around to play with lol. I could probably compromise and collect a 5l demijohn of heads, and do jars from there on out to determine the hearts. After two attempts (one from grape neutral and one from sugar wash) I think I'm finally going to do the simplest juniper+coriander and nothing else method. I could always try to infuse the flavors later on.

For a gin, you need to start with a clean neutral, not the sloppy, “catch it all” heads/hearts/tails crap you’re using.

To increase the juniper flavor and aroma, don’t cut so much of the start of the run as that’s when the juniper comes over.

You’re macerating the cassia way too long. pull it out after 8 hours. Or omit it and make a separate flavor essence and blend it back to taste. A little goes a long way.
ss

I wanted him to run it that way, but when you're dealing with someone who's been stilling for 20+ years and thinks he knows best, sometimes it's hard to get people to do it your way as a rookie lol. I was in charge of picking a mash and getting the botanicals, he operated the still for everything. He ended up telling me he intentionally let it macerate for 2 more days because he thought he result would be better. I'm just going to do juniper+coriander next time.
About the starting cut, we had to because it was coming out cloudy-white, last time i had that part included it made the entire batch cloudy. I guess we could cut less next time, flavor > appearance surely. Macerating 2 weeks and running the still without the herbs could probably help with this.
Time to start hoarding jars and labeling them 1-80. I like pasta sauce anyway

[still_stirrin]

… dealing with someone who's been stilling for 20+ years and thinks he knows best...

Some are “teachable”. Some aren’t. Which are you?

… Time to start hoarding jars and labeling them 1-80. I like pasta sauce anyway

Around here, the big box stores have cases of mason jars on sale…it’s “canning season”. Pints, quarts, and 2 liters all available. Pick up a couple of cases.
ss

[Stonecutter]

First time making birdwatchers sugar shine.

So this is what I'm thinking for the next run:
1. Same shine recipe, distill when it reaches 8% or after 8 days no matter the %. no reason to not let the fermentation finish


Do you think 20l hearts is too generous? Should I collect less hearts and more heads/tails? Assuming the same 30l end yield. Why on earth wouldn’t you collect all your hearts??

I can just collect it as long as alcohol comes out? Or is there going to be a large difference in flavor (even though we'd just use hearts for that third run/gin run) if I collect over that 400ml per 1 liter of neutral. These answers are doing within the HD. Also experimentation will be your most useful tool to understanding cuts

[Saltbush Bill]

Cassia doesn't come over until late in the run......if it's over powering your gin its because your going way to far into the tail end of the run imo.
Making small batches and collecting the results in small jars will let you learn what botanical flavours come over at what part of the run.
As SS has stated......it's no good using a shit base spirit to make gin.......you need to get that right first.
Making huge batches of gin when learning is sure to end badly.........you just end up with a lot of bad gin to drink or try to fix.
Build a small dedicated gin still........one that holds 4-5 liters

[shadylane]

So this is what I'm thinking for the next run:
1. Same shine recipe, distill when it reaches 8% or after 8 days no matter the %.

I wouldn't do that.
With 20kg sugar in your 90l wash, when finished it would have 13% alcohol.
If you run it early, the left over sugar will cause problems.
I'd recommend decreasing the sugar to around 15kg and letting it ferment till it's done.
The yeast will love you for it and make a better tasting liquor.

[NZChris]

Ferment time won't make much difference unless you strip too early and miss out on some alcohol.

Try to make sure he removes some foreshots from the stripping runs.

If he can't make decent cuts for the spirit run, you're stuck with what you've got.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 46&t=13261
You don't have to use all of the jars you calculated you need for the whole run. The first couple are never going to be heart cut, so they can go straight into the feints collection to free up those jars. Stay with using jars until your nose tells you that you are definitely in hearts, then run into demijohns/whatever until you get nervous, or your nose catches a hint of tails, then run into jars again. Then choose your heart cut. Make sure to make up a representative sample of your chosen cut and taste it before committing it all to one vessel.

Maceration time probably doesn't make as much difference to flavor as some people think, unless you are not putting the botanicals in the still.

You shouldn't be taking a heads cut on a gin run. Try to take a small foreshot that is just enough to get rid of any hint of remaining ethyl acetate and help to keep the gin clear, but without removing much of the Juniper.

If a botanical is too strong, use less next time. Too weak, use more.

I run by volume, something like this, but if I taste it and it's getting bitter or nasty, I stop.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 14&t=48594