Chocolatey Delight All Grain

[Avalir]

Hello y'all,
I'm back with more project ideas than time I have for projects, but I think I'll squeeze this one in.
So the idea is for a chocolatey dessert spirit, that I guess could still be classified as whiskey but that's more or less irrelevant.
The idea came to me after my first attempt at scotch for my old lady. The idea was to compensate for less time on wood (she seems to be drawn to the scotches with more aged qualities) by getting creative with the roasts of the barley being utilized. More specifically, it featured 6% chocolate malt in the grain bill. The result was surprisingly good--sweet and chocolatey; the problem is I really have a hard time actually referring to it as a scotch due to the flavor profile. I also found that I can make a damn fine scotch without the chocolate malt that actually resembles scotch.
I'd hate to not use the chocolate malt stash I have, and with it no longer going towards scotch, it gives me opportunity to have a recipe centered around it, not to mention a more appealing price point (huzzah!).
So for this new endeavor I'm thinking the grain bill will be as follows:
6% chocolate malt
20% pale malt
24% rolled oats
50% white rice

The logic is to keep it chocolatey, any more than that 6% I think will verge on too much, any less and I guarantee I'll wish it came through more. I do use extra external enzymes, but want the grain bill to still reflect a natural/traditionally achieved flavor (I also wouldn't want to do away with those good ol malt notes). The oats for mostly that amazing creamy mouthfeel and a little extra flavor complexity never hurts. The rice is simply a cheap grain that shouldn't impact the flavor, but also should make it remarkably smooth (even smoother than what I've become accustomed to if I understand right). I'm probably going to use some DADY yeast for fermentation because I've always been satisfied with its results and I'm highly sceptical on what bakers yeast would do here.
As far as aging, I'm going to put it on my used bourbon wood--which I currently have a good amount of french oak that I think will pair well.

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and suggestions before I put this into action.
I'll be working on my bourbon the next couple weeks, so unless my lady wants me to start more scotch right away, I'll be starting this next.

[still_stirrin]

If it were me, I’d swap 1/2 (or more) of the rice with wheat for a couple of reasons.

Where I live, wheat is a commercial product, in fact, my brother and I farm wheat. So the grain is free…as much as I want. Wheat has a “creamy” flavor in a beer, so when distilled it is a very mild flavor constituent. It complements the other cereal grains and malts nicely without overpowering. It also adds to the texture, increasing the viscosity (mouthfeel).

I’ve fermented rice before and it (white rice, at least) has a soft “spiciness” flavor. It is not near the extent as rye malt is, but not as neutral as wheat.

And I’d reduce the rolled oats slightly. It will have a rough “grassy” character, so it can become overpowering to the beer. I wouldn’t use more than 20%, with about 15% as my goal.

But, you can increase the pale malt to make up the balance. Pale malt is the foundation of a whiskey flavor (single malt), so increasing it’s proportion will help round out the chocolate malt flavor, which I think at 6% up to 10% is quite appropriate.

Interesting recipe with a novel character. I’d be curious how it turns out after aging a while on oak.
ss

[subbrew]

I was going to say swap half the rice for corn to get the sweetness of the corn. Chocolate and sweet seem to go together. But if you take Still stirrins advise, which is good we have totally changed the recipe from rice to wheat and corn. You may have to run two or batches.

[Avalir]

I appreciate all that feedback. Sadly I don't have wheat and my option for it currently would be the brew store and I don't care for the price, but I guess if it's a minor part of the grain bill it shouldn't be too bad. I had also considered corn, but I feel rice would just be easier/less time consuming, but in the grand scheme of things flavor is more important. As far as the oats, it was mostly that high as filler, glad you brought up potential problems--my bourbon uses 16% and it turns out great so I'll probably reduce it in favor of some corn and reduce rice for more corn.

[still_stirrin]

+1 to subbrew.

Using corn as the base grain will give you a sweeter product, much more “bourbon-like”.

But if the base grain is barley malt, the chocolate malt will remain more apparent.

My comments with wheat are that it simply is more neutral in character than the rice will be. And wheat has more diastatic power, especially if malted.

As far as oats, I prefer to use Quaker Quick Oats from the grocery store. Because it is flaked, the grains have been gelatinized (and de-husked), making the flakes ready to mash with the malts. Around here, grocery store oats are about $1.50 USD per pound. So they’re economical and easy to use.
ss

[Avalir]

I just pich up a bushel (55lbs) of rolled oats from tractor supply. To my understanding, rolled oats should be pregelatinzed by the steam process used. They're only a couple dollars more than whole oats. Either way, my bourbon mash gravity and yield seem to support that claim.

[subbrew]

Yes, I used to work on a plant that processed oats. to make the oat soft enough to roll they are put in a hopper which has steam injected into it. I don't remember the time they would be in the hopper but it was at least an hour. if something happened and you had to stop the process it was a mess as they would cook and get sticky and plug things up. After the hopper they went through a roller, big rollers that flatten the oats and then drop as fans blow cool air over them so they dry as they drop before falling into a tote.

About once a year you had to shut down the process and get the rollers machined as there center would wear and the gap would open up. Each roller was 1800 lb. Putting them back the alignment had to be perfect.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

To my understanding, rolled oats should be pregelatinzed by the steam process used. They're only a couple dollars more than whole oats.

Yupp. And they would reinforce that "chocolatey" character if you make them a bit "browny" in your oven before mashing.

[jonnys_spirit]

I’ve got some of this Briess Blond Roast Oat Malt on order for an upcoming bourbon. I plan to use it with equal amounts of grocery store generic quick oats. I’ve toasted quick oats before and rather enjoyed it so wanted to try this one for part of my oat contribution:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/bries ... -malt.html

[Biker24a69]

Jonnys just found the blond oat roast malt last night gonna get some for a four grain bourbon later this summer

[Swedish Pride]

Sounds like a fun bill, might be a pain to sparge with 50% rice.

I'd swap half the oats and half the rice for base malt, but that's just me.

I think rice makes a more neutral product than wheat, not sure if neutral is what this recipe needs but hey half the fun is experimenting isn't it

[scubatech]

Thomas Fawcett makes a pale malt called Golden Promise that is sweeter than Maris Otter. Could be a good addition.

[Beerswimmer]

Have any of y'all played around with cacao nibs? I used them in homebrews, but those were tiny.

[scubatech]

I've only used in homebrew as well and then only in the secondary.

I have heard of folks macerating them in high proof Vodka or NGS for about a month and then redistilling with good results.

[Ridgeback816]

Hello y'all,
I'm back with more project ideas than time I have for projects, but I think I'll squeeze this one in.
So the idea is for a chocolatey dessert spirit, that I guess could still be classified as whiskey but that's more or less irrelevant.
The idea came to me after my first attempt at scotch for my old lady. The idea was to compensate for less time on wood (she seems to be drawn to the scotches with more aged qualities) by getting creative with the roasts of the barley being utilized. More specifically, it featured 6% chocolate malt in the grain bill. The result was surprisingly good--sweet and chocolatey; the problem is I really have a hard time actually referring to it as a scotch due to the flavor profile. I also found that I can make a damn fine scotch without the chocolate malt that actually resembles scotch.
I'd hate to not use the chocolate malt stash I have, and with it no longer going towards scotch, it gives me opportunity to have a recipe centered around it, not to mention a more appealing price point (huzzah!).
So for this new endeavor I'm thinking the grain bill will be as follows:
6% chocolate malt
20% pale malt
24% rolled oats
50% white rice

The logic is to keep it chocolatey, any more than that 6% I think will verge on too much, any less and I guarantee I'll wish it came through more. I do use extra external enzymes, but want the grain bill to still reflect a natural/traditionally achieved flavor (I also wouldn't want to do away with those good ol malt notes). The oats for mostly that amazing creamy mouthfeel and a little extra flavor complexity never hurts. The rice is simply a cheap grain that shouldn't impact the flavor, but also should make it remarkably smooth (even smoother than what I've become accustomed to if I understand right). I'm probably going to use some DADY yeast for fermentation because I've always been satisfied with its results and I'm highly sceptical on what bakers yeast would do here.
As far as aging, I'm going to put it on my used bourbon wood--which I currently have a good amount of french oak that I think will pair well.

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and suggestions before I put this into action.
I'll be working on my bourbon the next couple weeks, so unless my lady wants me to start more scotch right away, I'll be starting this next.

I actually really like making spirits with rice and oats I feel they both add great mouthfeel. That being said I hate chocolate malts just not my thing. I did try it once didn't care for it, had to run it 3 times to make it mostly neutral BUT If you want chocolate dark roasted burnt flavor I would say go for it and if you can find some white corn add that for some balance.

[bilgriss]

I haven't distilled anything with chocolate malt, but used in a beer, it is generally supported by a higher temperature mash that leaves residual sugars to offset the bitter chocolaty character. I agree with the others about increasing the corn percentage.

Also, read through this thread and recipe, which has enough discussion and outcomes that you can probably glean some insight
viewtopic.php?t=65895

[NormandieStill]

I haven't distilled anything with chocolate malt, but used in a beer, it is generally supported by a higher temperature mash that leaves residual sugars to offset the bitter chocolaty character. I agree with the others about increasing the corn percentage.

For ageing purposes a lower abv in the "cask" will probably help pull more of the sweeter vanillins than a higher abv.

[Avalir]

I actually ended up calling it quits with chocolate malt - a little goes a long way in distilling. I wouldn't say results I got were bad, just not what I wanted and the flavor was out of place for a nice whiskey. I concluded chocolate malt is best used for beer, not so great for whiskey (at least not for a whiskey profile I enjoy). Oats have become a must for me in all my bourbon, and brown rice is unexpectedly nice too for flavor and mouthfeel (nutty flavor and a mouthfeel that puts oats to shame).