Home Distiller

Hello everyone. i am running my first all grain mashes and i am new to distilling. made beer years ago.
my Rye is going fine no issues there.

i am running 2 seperate fermenters with the same grain bil (Irish Whisky)
milled 10KG 2row malt, 7.5KG raw Barley, 2KG oats all together and mixed as using for 2 ferments.

i am setup with a 65L still so i keep the ferments around 45-50L.

i ran the first mash, 73C strike water, added half the mixed grain using grain bag for 45mins cover and left standing. temp was 65 when the 45mins was up (stiring every 10mins). i heated back up to 70C then covered again. i left it for a few hours it was down to 45C started to transfer to my first fermenter. let it cool till 27C and pitched a started yeast of 2 packets of SR04 with 2 teaspoons of sugar and .5L water. then repeated the mash cook on the other half of the grain. however the last cover i went to bed (was a long day after work by now) when i woke up 7 hours later it was sitting around 35C, transfered to fermenter and did my yeast a bit different, 1 tablespoon DAP, 2 Complex B vitamins crushed and 1 packet of SR04 (i was hoping this would run a bit slower to space out the finished ferments a bit.

now 3 and 4 days in fermenting (respectively) the first is happy and smells normal (not sweet but like butter and tastes a bit like unsalted butter or a cheap butterscotch) the second however is much lighter colour almost mustard water. day 2 smelled like a barn (the stray/hay must not the manure) and now today it has a sharp sting in my nose like a burn and vinegary. but it tastes like cold icing sugar in water.

i plan to run them both through but i am wondering if i will have an issue with the second one as its also almost stopped was 1.032 @18.3C yesterday and 24hours later its 1.030 @19.9C

any insight or steps i would appreciate.

i have looked through the forum using the google search and there are some posts that are similar but not same grain bill and the smells sound more pungent than i am experiencing.

Sounds to me like something other than your yeast colony is dominant within the mash. I'd repitch with a large batch of rehydrated yeast and see if you can get it back on the right track.

What yeast are you using. The buttery notes indicated are likely diacetyl could be pedio or lacto, ale yeasts also tend to throw it. It may go away later in the ferment, may not. The other ferment could be a few different things, by sharp do you mean Sulphur? If you are saying its very acidic, I would bet you have a pediococcus problem in both fermenters, those are both common signs. Pediococcus can be a real problem, its very hard to get out of the brewery after being introduced.

"Pediococcus is a very common spoilage bacteria often considered one of the most difficult types of bacteria to remove from an infected brewery. Pediococcus cause high acidity, buttery aroma and inhibit yeast growth, which results in decreased fermentation rates."

Talk about your process, is this all on grain, temps, do you boil?

Talk about your yeast, how much, what strain?

What is your sanitization protocol?

theses 2 are all grain no sugar added.
First fermenter:
i brought 42L of water (city tap filtered through a whole house activated carbon filter like a big brita filter for taste) to 75-76degree C. added the grain slowly and stirred avoiding dough balls.
after adding i stirred for 1-2 minutes and then covered and let sit for 45mins heat off.
checked temp again and was at 62-63C. put the heat back on while stirring to 76C again. now off heat wrapped and stirring every 10 mins till temp down to 43-45. moved to the fermenter. using boiling water (10L or about) to sparge and added to the fermenter. capped and waited till temp was 30C and pitched yeast
Yeast was Safale S-04 2 packets (11.2g each) in 28C water with 2 table spoons of sugar about an hour before. very happy and active while pitched.

Second ferment:
same day started right after first was finished. 42L water heated to 75-76 c then added grain in the mesh bag. stirring to avoid dough balls. after added again stirred for 1-2 minutes then covered and let stand for 45 mins with heat off. returned it was about 65c. stirred, and heated back to 75. covered and went to bed. woke up 7 hours later and started draining into ferment. used 10L boiling water to sparge and added to fermenter.
this time temp was about 36C coming out of the kettle. all smelled like grain wash no off smells.
yeast again is Safale S-04 but 1 packet (11.2g) 28C water and 1 tablespoon of sugar. when pitched i added a table spoon of DAP (from home brew store).
no off smells till next day. the grain is clean (we have rabbits so i keep it outside after sparging for a few days as feed for them and then after 4 days it goes in the composter.

sanitation
Fermenters: was light soap/warm water wash. hot water heavy rinse. Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash following directions on package for amounts (i believe was 8 scoops with about 10L almost scalding hot water sitting for 20mins sloshing often. then hot water rinse again (all done right before transfering mash)

Kettle : was light soap/warm water wash. hot water heavy rinse. Craft Meister Alkaline Brewery Wash following directions on package for amounts 12 scoops for 25L i think with almost scalding hot water sitting for 20mins sloshing often.

all utensils were sprayed with starsan mix (premixed in 4L jug to volumes printed on the label) and sprayed using a dedicate spray bottle.

the smell is not buttery it is vinegary, only the taste is buttery and not vinegary. (a tongue dip of some drips from my stir paddle, no contact with utensils and tongue. i work for big pharma i know sanitary and hygiene processes well lol)
the first ferment is a little buttery taste with some alcohol like a light butter beer. the second is not sulfur smell it is like vinegar fumes (like a steam run to clean a still) and it was a burn feeling like amonia (not the smell though just that sting or like bleach/chlorine burn not smell. taste wise it has the smallest taste of alcohol and still like watered down icing sugar.

they have not been anywhere near the still since making the mash (kettle is my still boiler too) the kettle was washed with warm soapy water and hot water rinse before i put it away and i veryified now there is no smell in it and has been dry since sunday morning after the mashing-washing.

if there is an issue with this stuff and its not a good idea to run i can deal no biggy. i can throw out the fermenter as i can get more from work (raw materials food grade 50L barrels washed and sanitized before they leave the building with me or the recycling either way.

my sugar washes previous had no issues. but they were made using birdwatches recipe from here 9KG sugar/35L water 2+original cleaning run all fine no issues fermenting or running. theses are my first 3 grain runs.

What is the pH?

i do not know. i have ordered a PH meter but it hasnt shown up almost 3 weeks now

WayFastJett wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:34 am
42L water heated to 75-76 c then added grain in the mesh bag. stirring to avoid dough balls. after added again stirred for 1-2 minutes then covered and let stand for 45 mins with heat off. returned it was about 65c. stirred, and heated back to 75.

The 75c strike water was in the ball park.
When you mixed in the grain and malt, the temp dropped to 65c. "149f"

Just a guess.
When you heated everything back to 75c, "167f" the malts enzymes were getting denatured faster than they could work.
Try to keep the mash temp constant @ 65c for a couple hours.
45 minutes works for beer, but we are making whiskey.

On a side note.
I'm thinking, an all grain mash seldom needs any DAP.
There should be more than enough available from malt and grains.
Before adding anything it's best to be sure if your heading in the right direction.

WayFastJett wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:42 pm i do not know. i have ordered a PH meter but it hasnt shown up almost 3 weeks now

PH strips are accurate enough for most fermenting purposes except for highly colored washes, don't need batteries or maintenance and don't need calibrating.

shadylane wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:36 pm

Just a guess.
When you heated everything back to 75c, "167f" the malts enzymes were getting denatured faster than they could work.
Try to keep the mash temp constant @ 65c for a couple hours.
45 minutes works for beer, but we are making whiskey.

On a side note.
I'm thinking, an all grain mash seldom needs any DAP.
There should be more than enough available from malt and grains.
Before adding anything it's best to be sure if your heading in the right direction.

just checking i am hearing you correctly, your saying i should have not reheated to 75 after mashing in, and left heat on at 65~ C for a couple hours? that is absolutely doable.
but the mash that i dropped temp sooner is the one doing better (or atleast smells better and has fermented more like i would expect). starting gravity was 1.032 @30deg C before pitch. now 5 days later its at 1.002@19.3 deg C. where as the vinegar smelling ferment start gravity was 1.041 @27.1 Deg C before pitch and 4 days in its 1.028@20.5 deg C.

at this point i am concerned i may have an infected ferment (#2) and i would rather get rid of it before it becomes a bigger problem.

i did follow the first given advice above of pitching again but i used 120g bakers yeast as i dont have any Safale s-04 left and was headed to bed. the pitch made Nov 2 when gravity was 1.030, 24hours later was at 1.028 so very very slow. leading me more to believing there is an infection fighting the yeast and giving me the smell. but i am not sure as there are my first few all grain ferments. i have read in the forums the harsh smells can make a good product in the end but not a vomit or vinegar smell. that said the vinegar smell was not as strong today as it was yesterday but still strong enough to be unpleasent. but there is no vinegar taste.

another note the bubbles ontop when i opened #2 are large grey and cloudy/smokey looking if that is any indecator. never seen those before.

the first (and last) time i left a mash to cool overnight, in the morning it was bubbling away without any yeast from me.
i agree with shady, it's still grains, whether its beer or spirits, so maybe 65c is the temp to hold at, for the enzymes in the 2row to work their magic.

is that OG on the low side for that grain bill?

its actually high from what i had calculated, i calculated would be 1.027-1.029. the 2 row is only malted grain. oats and barley are unmalted. i milled all together in my shed.

NZChris wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:32 pm What is the pH?

PH is in around 3 according to some strips i got from a drug store (only place open late enough) i work night shift
but i dont know what it was when started. would it be worth adding baking soda? or am i too far in already and have to scrap?

Don't scrap it yet. Get the pH up to 4-6, and either repitch or wait and see if your colony is alive. If the stuff ferments out and tastes fine distill it, the fermentation and distillation is going to kill anything off that could be a problem. No reason to throw this out until you have an idea of what caused it, need to be able to avoid it in the future.

There could be an issue with your sanitization. Normally alkaline brewing cleaners are used to remove organic matter. Then an acidic sanitizer is used to kill bacteria and neutralize the caustic. I have no idea whether it actually matters or not.

I wouldn’t use baking soda, yeast doesn’t like a lot of sodium. I use slaked lime.

If you have off smells the end product is actually better from my experience just as long as the fermentation doesn't stop and no signs of mold

I may not be understanding your yeast process. I would caution against adding DAP before the yeast get re-hydrated. The dry yeast doesn't have as much control over what enters the cell and the DAP can be toxic before they can regulate it's uptake. So I have read. Like Shadylane said. You probably don't need DAP with an all grain mash.

I'd rephrase it to " you DONT need DAP with any all grain."

WayFastJett wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:41 pm
just checking i am hearing you correctly, your saying i should have not reheated to 75 after mashing in, and left heat on at 65~ C for a couple hours? that is absolutely doable....

That's correct.
Malts natural enzymes are temp and pH sensitive.
If you don't denature the enzymes, they will keep on working.
All that's needed, is give the enzymes more time.


On a side note.
A homedistiller could get mighty thirsty while learning to use malt.
High temp Alpha and Gluco enzymes are cheap insurance.
My mashing success rate and consistency increased greatly.

shadylane wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:25 pm
On a side note.
A homedistiller could get mighty thirsty while learning to use malt.
High temp Alpha and Gluco enzymes are cheap insurance.
My mashing success rate and consistency increased greatly.

im guessing you are talking about adding Alpha amylase? i do have some, unopened atm, i figured for my first try i would see how things go without many additives and i kinda forgot

thanks for the info,

thanks all for the info/help

i have added 2 tablespoons of baking soda (what i have for now and will replace when used up with calcuim carbonate donw the road) after some time the PH rose to 3.4 ish. added 4 table spoons just an hour ago see where that gets me. the vinegar smell has disipated drastically. there is still a barnyard musk but not a manure/urea smell more like damp hay/straw.

jward wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:13 pm I may not be understanding your yeast process. I would caution against adding DAP before the yeast get re-hydrated. The dry yeast doesn't have as much control over what enters the cell and the DAP can be toxic before they can regulate it's uptake. So I have read. Like Shadylane said. You probably don't need DAP with an all grain mash.

DAP was not added to the yeast prep, it was added to the fermenter just after pitching. yes i had it in my head the DAP would help but that was thinking about my washes and will not be repeated in future grain runs. i did not put DAP in the first ferment and i am not remembering where my logic was on the second ferment to add it. perhaps exhaustion was a lapse in thinking.

For what its worth , I make Rum in two identical fermenters at a time . Same molases , same dunder dame bloody everything split 50/50 into two fermenters . ( two 50 litre fermenters )

Time after time , goes same . Then one day , one decides to take off and work normally while other is slow as a snail and finishes weeks later with a god awful smell .


Sometimes shit happens .

Give the fermenters a good clean and better luck next time .

Had the same happen with two identical barrels of UJSSM Yummy......as ya say.....shit happens at times.

with the off smelling runs you guys had, did you run them anyway and no issues or did you scrap and start over?

Ran mine regardless.......booze was fine......your mileage may vary. Nothing to loose by running it IMO.

i was worried if it was an infection that they can be hard to get out if into still, triclamp gaskets etc. it is choochin along now with the second large add of baking soda. smells a lot better, but not as good as my rye mash (its done just settling now been done for a few days-week at this point)

Don't worry about an infection in the still. By the time you get into the still the fermentation is over with and your exposure time is pretty much nothing. Plus hours at boiling temp, high alcohol concentration is going to kill anything anyway.

Oh, and avoid soap in your equipment, it isn't necessary and provides one more potential source of issues. Your sanitizers will take care of anything.

Thank you again all. everything is looking back on track. the smell is more sweet than stale. SG is at 1.019 and choochin. PH is at 4.5 ish.
i know the noob questions can be annoying but it is great to have a community willing to help with these questions. i have learned a bunch without making bad decisions and making it worse.

i will let you know what my tastes end up being in a few weeks after they are done and run.

been a minute but have been busy at work and home. Happy new year all!.
some updates. the first one that had no issues fermenting is aging nicely and has a pleasant flavour so far only being 1.5 months on oak. i just ran the second one this weekend and was left with a thick grey foam/yeasty looking froth about 1/2" thick all the way around my boiler just below the fluid line. first time ive had this. i used a racking cane and watched the whole time was clear, left the last bit of low wines above the yeast settle so not sure where this has come from. however this is the first mash/wash i needed to add baking soda (i now have potassium to use in the future but didnt back in Nov. i have some pics i can share if needed but figure someone might know based on description.

as for taste i found nothing off but usualt heads/tails notes but the hearts were sweet but good
thanks.

So far in the aging they are going well. 4 months on 2 charred oak staves and there is still a sharp start on the tounge (like a needle) for a second and then a sweet lingering taste, im liking how its going will keep on it. the younger one is only 2 months but is tasting about the same with less harshness.

Sounds about right. The sharpness could be green whiskey flavor, a cut issue, too high of ABV, or tasting too soon after diluting. You will figure out the difference with practice.

Glad you are having some success!