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I started an alcotec 48 brew 10 days ago. My recipe was as follows.

32kg sugar
60 litres water
25 degrees Celsius
4 packs of turbo 48

It started off violently but got stuck on 1.050 after 7 days. Activity dropped significantly so I added a 5th pack of turbo 48. It foamed like crazy but now 10 days after starting it's stuck on 1.040 and it's barely if at all moving. No hissing, no bubbles nothing.

This should have topped out at 21 percent abv.

Is this because an increase in osmotic pressure from stacking a yeast which isn't supposed to be stacked? Or did I fuck up the recipe somehow?

Please no judging regarding turbo yeast. Just want help regarding how to save this fermentation!

I have no sympathy for you. You got greedy and are paying the price for it.

I suspect that you will have to water it down, a lot, then check the pH and adjust if necessary.

If you are really lucky, your hydrometer is faulty and it has finished, but I doubt it.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:22 pm did I fuck up

Short answer ...Yes.
Stop using shit washes or you will never make good booze........on top of that ....no one here can help you improve what you make if you don't change the way you are doing things.
We have Tried and True recipes here for a reason.......they work ..they make good booze......not one of them uses Turdbo Yeast and crazy amounts of sugar.
People here are trying to make quality not quantity..........the quantity people are on You tube and other such places.

If you were aiming for high abv, you should have been actively cooling according the the one packet of Alcotec Turbo that I've used. You may have just cooked your yeast.

Also. You appear to enjoy banging your head against a brick wall. Stop it. You're going to hurt yourself.

How judgemental the majority of you are is fairly ridiculous. It's not you making it and it's not you using it. Whatever I choose to make with my own equipment really is entirely my choice.

For the record, as most of you know I do use turbo yeasts but not turbo 48 and never to 21%. I use turbo 100 mega pack and I exclusively brew to 14-15 percent ABV only not 21%.

I had the leftover turbo 48s and wanted to run an experimental batch at 21 percent. My own experiment to conduct should I see it as something that I want to do. Not something for you guys to tell me what I can and what I cannot do.

I'm well aware that the 20+ stuff wouldn't have likely been drinkable but it didn't really make much difference. Simply an experiment that I likely would have taken a small cut from as drinkables and used the rest for hand gel and cleaning around the house.

Now if anyone actually wants to help I'll be happy to hear. What could have actually gone wrong here and how can I fix it?

NormandieStill wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:05 am If you were aiming for high abv, you should have been actively cooling according the the one packet of Alcotec Turbo that I've used. You may have just cooked your yeast.

Also. You appear to enjoy banging your head against a brick wall. Stop it. You're going to hurt yourself.

The entire thing never gone above 25 degrees Celsius. I do monitor my temperatures. So I don't see how I could have cooked the yeast!

Plus I added a 5th pack 5 days ago and that started fermentation back up but only for about a day before it stopped again.

32kg sugar
60 litres water
25 degrees Celsius
4 packs of turbo 48

How does that make 100 litres ? Doesn’t add up .

I dunno , it just seems like a fuckton of sugar .

I use 32kg sugar to make a 180 litre wash .

I know you like the HBS yeast packs , but back when I used them , I and my mate had a couple that stalled . Maybe you got a bad batch too .

Soon after that , I quit using them and started following recipes here that worked .

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:40 am

NormandieStill wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:05 am If you were aiming for high abv, you should have been actively cooling according the the one packet of Alcotec Turbo that I've used. You may have just cooked your yeast.

Also. You appear to enjoy banging your head against a brick wall. Stop it. You're going to hurt yourself.

The entire thing never gone above 25 degrees Celsius. I do monitor my temperatures. So I don't see how I could have cooked the yeast!

Plus I added a 5th pack 5 days ago and that started fermentation back up but only for about a day before it stopped again.

I doubt they would actually cook, but in order to ferment out dry to 21% they need optimum conditions. If you're not actively controlling the temperature then they are not in the optimum temperature range for handling that high an abv. Which may well result in them dying.

And with regard to your other comments... you know already that turbo yeast and high abv ferments are frowned upon here because of the crappy quality booze that results. You know that no-one regular here with any experience uses turbo yeast. So why ask here? If you're trying to debug a high abv turbo ferment that's gone wrong, contact alcotec. Or the homebrew store that sold you the yeast. Or one of the online distilling communities that doesn't hold such high standards.

probably ready to run

squigglefunk wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:10 am probably ready to run+

Yeah, at least as close to ready as it will ever get.

I'd consider this experiment a fail. Not that you had to do it, you could have just read about it. It's not like we don't know how it would go. People have only been fermenting for the last 3,000 or so years.
At 21% you'd have to step ferment it and even than I doubt you'd use all the sugar.
You might try doubling your water volume, adding nutrients and a buffer.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:35 am… Now if anyone actually wants to help I'll be happy to hear…

Really?
Will you actually heed advice given here, or continue on your own rogue path?
Nobody here “owes” you assistance. It’s a luxury, so don’t berate those who do (try to) help.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:35 am… What could have actually gone wrong here <— ignorance
… and how can I fix it?

As suggested already:
1) separate the wash into 2 fermenters and
2) add 50% more water.
3) Check the specific gravity.
4) Adjust the pH of each fermenter up to 4.0 pH or higher and
5) repitch a fresh rehydrated yeast.
6) Maintain the temperature of the fermenters at 25*C.

Good luck with it. Hopefully, at least your take away is a lesson learned, so you won’t repeat it again.
ss

I think people need to understand that j am not on my own rogue path. As stated previously this was an experiment that I wanted to run. To analyse the difference in off flavours between my usual 14-15 and the 20+ washes. It really didn't bother me whether I would get any drinkable alcohol from this batch!

Thank you for everyone who has offered advice regarding dilution and nutrients and I'll definitely give this a try!

Though what I mainly want is to know what actually gone wrong. I think most people here are aware that turbo 48 is more than capable at reaching at least 20%. Again yes I know it's not wise for drinkable spirits but it is actually capable of reaching them percentages. What comes out of the wash is obviously another matter.

The temperature was held constantly at 25c with a fermenter heater in an extremely cold shed. I checked the temperature everyday and it never changed from 25c. According to alcotec this is the optimum temperature range for reaching 20+.

I honestly feel like I've messed up the proportions of the wash somehow. As said, I've never really fermented a wash with this much sugar so I'm not sure.

Can anyone tell me if 60 litres of water and 32kg of sugar is the correct proportion for actually resulting in 20 percent finish?

I'm really not sure if sugar takes up less space in the fermenter than water. So maybe I was supposed to add 15 litre of water to fermenter, add 8 kg of sugar then too up with more water to 23 litres for each of the 4 sachets.

So for my batch I added 60 litres of water and 32 kg of sugar which I thought brought the brew to 92 litres. But maybe I was supposed to add 32kg of sugar, 60 litres of water (dissolve the sugar) then too up with more water to 92 litres?

Do you get what I mean guys? Did I mess up the proportions?

Again this all comes down to does sugar take up less volume in the fermenter!

If this was the case, that could mean what's in my fermenter is in the 20 percents just with a lot of sugar left over due to wrong ratios!

What was your OG?
That's what tells you where you are at Re: potential alcohol.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:28 am I think most people here are aware that turbo 48 is more than capable at reaching at least 20%. Again yes I know it's not wise for drinkable spirits but it is actually capable of reaching them percentages.

Where did you see this? Pretty much everywhere on this site recommends keeping your potential ABV in the 8-10% range and attempting to reach the 20%abv range is going to be problematic.

It's also well documented that straight sugar washes require good nutrients, proper temp, and tend to crash pH so they should be monitored and adjusted during the first 24h.

It's pretty easy to follow a T&T and if you're really interested in producing more just make more and don't chase a high ABV ferment.

Good luck on figuring out the turbo!

Cheers,
jonny

As far as I can tell your OG was at 1.166 for a potential alcohol of 25.7% ABV, assuming it goes completely dry which it almost assuredly won't. Even the most aggressive turbos don't claim such high ABV's.

This was based on your 32kg of sugar and 60L of water, resulting in a total volume of about 82-83L. These were calculated using this sites own calculators on the parent wiki. You'd needed to have used about 83L of water to come out to 20% ABV, an OG of more like 1.130 and a total wash volume of about 105L.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:28 am

Though what I mainly want is to know what actually gone wrong. I think most people here are aware that turbo 48 is more than capable at reaching at least 20%. Again yes I know it's not wise for drinkable spirits but it is actually capable of reaching them percentages. What comes out of the wash is obviously another matter.

-What went wrong: You’ve made a toxic environment for your yeast. Also you’ve never once mentioned PH. The little yeasties are organisms that need a suitable environment to thrive in. As has been said here ad infinitum, that turbo is a gimmick. Which leads to the last part..

-What comes out of the wash is another matter: This experiment about making shit product just because you can is a waste of time. Then complaining about being judged when you’ve voluntarily joined a community of hobbyists looking to produce quality spirits is a joke. Very few of us are going to want to help when you yourself don’t even care what comes out of your still.

There's an article somewhere around here that makes an extremely credible claim that *no* yeast can produce any more than, IIRC, 14% ethanol. That anything beyond 14% is not ethanol, but some other type(s) of alcohol. Wish I could find that.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:28 amI … am not on my own rogue path. <— Well, with this “experiment”, you are. You can claim otherwise, but it’s not the contributors here that are “deaf”. It’s you because you continually refuse to heed advice given.

As stated previously this was an experiment that I wanted to run. To analyse the difference in off flavours between my usual 14-15 and the 20+ washes. It really didn't bother me whether I would get any drinkable alcohol from this batch!

… what I mainly want is to know what actually gone wrong … I've never really fermented a wash with this much sugar ... tell me if 60 litres of water and 32kg of sugar is the correct proportion for actually resulting in 20 percent finish? <— While it may get you close to a 20+%ABV potential, it is beyond any yeast strain’s ability to produce it.

… Did I mess up the proportions? … Again, this all comes down to does sugar take up less volume in the fermenter! <— Yes, a cup of sugar and a cup of water DOES NOT EQUAL 2 cups of syrup when mixed!

I doubt you could even measure your original gravity using a brewer’s hydrometer with the wash because the amount of sugar you used is beyond the hydrometer’s calibrated range. You’d need to use a refractometer to measure the brix, or sugar content.

Note that, if the sugar content is beyond the hydrometer’s range of measurement, then chances are you’re well beyond just about any yeast’s ability to ferment it, or at least, consume all the sugars present. Bacteria may be able to consume the excess sugars (over time) but what you’ll get from that is likely a “soured” beer.

Now, why on earth are you trying to push the boundaries of fermentation to the extremes?

Are you trying to make fuel for your mower? Firestarter?

You’re certainly not going to make spirits for consumption.
ss

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:35 am How judgemental the majority of you are is fairly ridiculous. It's not you making it and it's not you using it. Whatever I choose to make with my own equipment really is entirely my choice.

Now if anyone actually wants to help I'll be happy to hear. What could have actually gone wrong here and how can I fix it?

I hope you do not find me judgemental...

NzChris and SS gave good advice, but myself think you just proofed that turbo does not work as advertised.

If you have gone from 1.166 (which I calculated, you did not actually measure) to a measured 1.040 you are at about 17% ABV already. Depending on the conditions in your fermenter you may not get this to finish dry, period. Some ferments are unfixable at even much lower gravitates and ABV than you have now.

If you are genuinely experimenting to see how high an ABV is attainable I'd suggest using a step feeding technique. Start with a third to half the final sugar on the first day and over a period of time add additional sugar until the SG starts to rise and activity drops, indicating the yeast has gone down for the count. You will likely get to a higher ABV this way. Look to guys who do fuel for high ABV techniques and advice, it's kinda what they do.

According to the manufacturer you used about 8kg to much sugar, I back tracked and got 8kg in a 25l wash equates to approx 20l of water, so for 60l of water there should be 24kg of sugar as per the manufacturer, so I think you overshot by 8kg.
Another experiment may be 60l of water, some blended kale, some shell grit and some bakers yeast and about 10.5kg of sugar

When/if you water it down, there will be no need for added nutrients as there will already be more than enough from the Turbos.

Always measure the OG. If you don't and you've stuffed up the calcs or the recipe, the OG should alert you.

Thanks everyone.

I think we've definitely diagnosed the problem. Clearly my proportions was way off with an extra 8kg of sugar for the amount of water in the fermenter.

What's clear is that the alcohol content is over 15% because it burns my eyes when I open the fermenter. Compared to when I open the fermenter on my usual 15% washes.

I've added 20 litre of water and a 6th sachet of turbo pure 48 to the fermenter tonight. It began to bubble vigorously and it's going hard!

Now this has the conditions required for reaching upto around 20% but it can finish far below if it doesn't ferment dry.

My plan for the wash is as follows.

40-60 litres for sack runs on my stills.
20 litres for making some hand gel and cleaning around the house. (It's a good alternative to bleach).
20 litres for experimentation. I'll run it through and separate the cuts. And I'll taste them and compare the off flavours to my usual 15 percent runs. I'm honestly curious just how bad the off flavours are compared to the ones I get from the 15 percent runs!

Some people are claiming fermenting to this alcohol percentage is dangerous. Is it actually dangerous to consume the distillate from this run? As said I would like to sample for comparison to my usual turbo washes and if I can I'll of course save a litre or two of hearts if I can. Though I'm not really bothered about it! If it is dangerous please explain why! Does the fact that I accidentally mixed the ratios up and added 8kg more sugar change anything?

But the advice very much has been appreciated and I'll definitely use the advice on future runs. Thanks

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… What's clear is that the alcohol content is over 15% because it burns my eyes when I open the fermenter…

Well, that’s not a good judge of alcohol content. CO2 in the fermenter will “take your breath” away. And the acids from fermentation (naturally occurring byproducts) will burn your eyes and nose. Alcohol alone usually doesn’t smell sharp, more likely a little sweet and “sterile”, like a hospital.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… Some people are claiming fermenting to this alcohol percentage is dangerous…

NO! Not dangerous. But STUPID, because of the wasteful byproducts that the yeast will produce when stressed to this limit. It’s dumb and wasteful to use this much sugar to (try to) make consumable liquor. You’re throwing money away in the head’s cuts.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… Is it actually dangerous to consume the distillate from this run? As said I would like to sample for comparison to my usual turbo washes and if I can I'll of course save a litre or two of hearts if I can. Though I'm not really bothered about it!

Just UNTEACHABLE.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… If it is dangerous please explain why!

Unless you know how to make GOOD cuts (which I seriously question), you’re going to have toxic solvents in your product. It will smear throughout if you’ve indeed created the “crap” in your fermenter. DON’T ASK US TO TELL YOU WHY ANYMORE. YOU’VE BEEN TOLD MANY TIMES ALREADY.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… Does the fact that I accidentally mixed the ratios up and added 8kg more sugar change anything?

How the HELL would it change anything? You’ve F’d up your wash and now you don’t listen to any of the assistance given to you, and yet you deny that you’ve done anything wrong. Nothing is, or will change until YOU CHANGE WHAT YOU DO.
ss

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm and a 6th sachet of turbo pure 48

Mind if I ask how much 6 x sachets of Turbo Pure 48 costs ?

Cheapest I've seen it online is about 8 bucks, so I reckon around 48, jeez you can buy a lot of Bakers yeast, and whatever you want to use for a nutrient for that money.
I'm not having a crack at Asos, it may take twice as long to get the same volume by using a tried and true as compared to a turbo, the end result is what we all want.
I'm only really new to this, but I'm starting to ferment more and cut tighter and use my waste as a respectable refluxed everyday product.

Is Inglishill back again ??

Sporacle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:10 pm Cheapest I've seen it online is about 8 bucks, so I reckon around 48, jeez you can buy a lot of Bakers yeast, and whatever you want to use for a nutrient for that money.
I'm not having a crack at Asos, it may take twice as long to get the same volume by using a tried and true as compared to a turbo, the end result is what we all want.
I'm only really new to this, but I'm starting to ferment more and cut tighter and use my waste as a respectable refluxed everyday product.

That's all well and good but bakers yeast just doesn't fit my requirements. And neither does this 20% turbo 48 to be fairly honest. What fits my needs is the usual mega pack 100 at 15 percent.

Why I don't like bakers

It struggles to ferment up to 15% with a relatively small still I just don't have the time to run it 20 times to get through a single batch.

It requires HOT conditions. When I did ferment a bakers yeast wash it was taking ages to ferment. Way on track to taking weeks to ferment at 25c. It only increased its fermentation when I increased the temeprature to 32 degrees Celsius and it done even better at 35. Attaining them temperatures in a cold climate is just not feasible in my location.

The equivalent of $4.50 per sachet.

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:35 pm

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… What's clear is that the alcohol content is over 15% because it burns my eyes when I open the fermenter…

Well, that’s not a good judge of alcohol content. CO2 in the fermenter will “take your breath” away. And the acids from fermentation (naturally occurring byproducts) will burn your eyes and nose. Alcohol alone usually doesn’t smell sharp, more likely a little sweet and “sterile”, like a hospital.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… Some people are claiming fermenting to this alcohol percentage is dangerous…

NO! Not dangerous. But STUPID, because of the wasteful byproducts that the yeast will produce when stressed to this limit. It’s dumb and wasteful to use this much sugar to (try to) make consumable liquor. You’re throwing money away in the head’s cuts.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… Is it actually dangerous to consume the distillate from this run? As said I would like to sample for comparison to my usual turbo washes and if I can I'll of course save a litre or two of hearts if I can. Though I'm not really bothered about it!

Just UNTEACHABLE.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… If it is dangerous please explain why!

Unless you know how to make GOOD cuts (which I seriously question), you’re going to have toxic solvents in your product. It will smear throughout if you’ve indeed created the “crap” in your fermenter. DON’T ASK US TO TELL YOU WHY ANYMORE. YOU’VE BEEN TOLD MANY TIMES ALREADY.

Asos21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:56 pm… Does the fact that I accidentally mixed the ratios up and added 8kg more sugar change anything?

How the HELL would it change anything? You’ve F’d up your wash and now you don’t listen to any of the assistance given to you, and yet you deny that you’ve done anything wrong. Nothing is, or will change until YOU CHANGE WHAT YOU DO.
ss

I made it clear that this 20% run was just an experiment which the majority is being used for sack runs and cleaning. Why actually be so judgemental because I want to try the result to compare to my usual?

You claim that it's not dangerous to ferment to this alcohol percentage but then you state that it is dangerous because of the inability to make proper cuts and the high amounts of toxic biproducts.

Still spirits recommends taking no cuts with their air still. I only know because I had one for a while. How can they make such claims if the biproducts of the high alcohol ferments are toxic and in the wash at a high enough percentage to actually do harm?

What are these by products, and at what proportion do they contaminate the wash under the conditions of high alcohol ferments like the one done here?

Also if anyone can link me to a case study or some research actually documenting the toxic bi products of a high alcohol fermentation that would be great!

The question I am trying to get right here is this. Yes it will taste like shit. Yes it will need to be binned and won't be much use for regular consumption. But would it actually be toxic even if smearing was made in the cuts. As in, are the toxic elements trace products or are they significant quantities.

I'm just curious what sources and research people are using to make such claims as well. Because several high alcohol beers have been on the market over the years which taken fermentation to the extreme. Kilju is another high alcohol 17 ish percent drink which is attained entirely from fermentation.

I love to debate this further with you guys but only in a civil and relaxed way! This was an experiment not my usual way at brewing.

Any temperature is attainable in any location. Yeast produces more than enough heat to keep itself happy as long as the distiller looking after it's fermenter uses enough insulation. If it gets too cold, it's your fault, add more blankets/Watts/whatever.