General atmosphere of forum

[RockinRockies]

Hello everyone and especially the PIC,

I would like to appeal to something that has been brought up repeatedly by former members, friends and current members, outside sources, and as of today, myself with first hand experience. While these forums are an incredible source of information, and often, camaraderie, it increasingly appears to be simultaneously censorial in nature, or at the very least a good old boys club where a few folks with power get to dictate what the rest of us consume. (This is my interpretation)

I've been lurking on here for a few years before posting, and during that time, I witnessed a lot of awful behavior and communication that was not censored, and it's still available to view. Anyone on here can read through the litany of older posts to experience first hand this isn't a made up diatribe.

I can't obligated to voice my concerns in the hopes the powers that be respond and explain why this is so, because it's insulting, and feels like being treated like a child; I'm 45. Maybe that's young around here...I can't be certain.

There are many ornery responses by elder members, often... Warranted, but also, often enough, not so. Especially when they dismiss actual questions with such banal responses as "go talk to a librarian. There must be an actual BOOK on the subject." (Paraphrasing) Seriously? That is extremely condescending. How is that legitimate advice in 2022 given the climate of the pandemic? And this type of behavior is never censored, but rather the responses to such arrogant replies. It's very frustrating. What also concerns me is that by bringing up this topic publicly, I fear that I risk retaliation under since "terms and conditions" excuse. ( But I've been silent long enough and I'm willing to bring this to light, and hopefully, get some criticism as well. I crave to engage with differing opinions.)

There are posts that begin to get off topic, but are reigned in by the O.P., that are subsequently, partially deleted, because of reasons or claims, with the cheering of other elder members in those threads. This happens repeatedly. It's always against lesser or newer members and never, that I've seen, enacted against elder members.

Those other members cheering added literally nothing of value to the conversation, yet applauded the censorship. Can I be more polite in expressing my frustration given the current culture on this forum? It is abrasive and strikes me as elitist (at times). I'm certainly not alone in this perspective.

How does this create a welcoming environment for what amounts to outlaws? Literally, we are all outside of the law, which I understood as meaning we have a brotherhood that transcends politics, even if we're on "opposing teams"? It was my hope that we would be significantly more encouraging to anyone interested, even when they ask ignorant or legitimately dangerous questions.... Simply as a matter of principle. Treat your brothers with respect, even if they aren't on your level.

This is a very time consuming, often confusing, and intricate hobby. I think even the newbies, who are most often misguided, eventually fall in line with the culture of safety here. Myself included.

Being censored is rampant now, across all big tech and legacy media platforms, if you don't tie the party line. Why is that happening here? Maybe, because of the power differential, those in a position to "clean up threads" don't understand what it feels like to be censored, but I can assure you, it is very unwelcoming. It also causes serious frustration, especially when the conversation has been reigned in by the O.P.

I submit this post with the most respect, and I don't want to be kicked off the platform. But these grievances aren't felt by just a small minority, it's just that most folks either don't care enough or don't want to kick the hornets nest. I hope you folks understand my intent is to approach this in a manner that encourages self-reflection on all parties, while hopefully providing a more welcoming and understanding environment.

Mistakes are made, often by me, but not with malevolence. This is the best forum available, so please understand my concerns are with honest intent to improve the collective experience.

[psf]

my thoughts.
this is the internet.
we are all 21+.
put your feelings in your pocket so they don't get hurt.
get what you need and move on.
if you want a social club get some real friends.
you can always find butt hurt somewhere.
this same type post came up a few days ago.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Boomers gonna boom.
Just gotta take em with a grain of salt.

[Sporacle]

All those examples you list, you could find the exact same examples but with Mods, older members and others calling out poor behaviour and trying to genuinely help new people.
It's just the sample that you are looking at suits the points you are trying to make, this forum is what we make it and it's up to us to be respectful. You also have to be respectful and not as some people have done come in all guns blazing. Good luck but sometimes as it always is, people will be short even if they are trying to help

[acfixer69]

That is a long winded rant about being censored. We post about distilling and safety while doing it. You speak of big tech and legacy media platforms it's not happen here. Everyone gets to post and none of them are deleted but moved to the back and can be discussed for value.
My point is that you are acting like a child that don't like being corrected for flaws. Or you want us to change to your rules as you call many of us feel that way. Who are the many you refer to I think we do a one on one debate.

[OtisT]

Just a few rough thought on this topic:

This is what happens when anyone can join and contribute. You will get some comments from folks that are not appropriate, accurate, relevant. I see this too but I feel it is much better now than when I joined a few years ago. Personally, I think this forum is managed fairly well and folks are mostly kept in line.

Censorship:
I vote yes to censorship of most non-distilling subjects. I’m so glad the mods keep the political/racial/religious shit off of this site. I don’t agree with you and you don’t agree with me. Now let’s have a drink together and have a good time.

Regarding distilling censorship I vote yes, within reason. I am glad the folks on HD are direct/blunt when folks bring up a comment that is flat out incorrect or a bad idea. Many take this the wrong way, as a personal attack, when the goal is to keep misinformation off the site so we all have a better experience. Yes, some folks are offensive in their replies but what do you expect from a large group of drunk and anonymous people. I’ve found that folks can post any stupid idea about distilling they want w/o a problem, so long as they frame the conversation such that people know they don’t know what the right answer is and they want to prove something out. It’s the folks who bring repeatedly proven wrong ideas to the site and quote them as gospel that get piled on, especially when they want to argue the point w/o putting any investment in effort other than typing.

Readers Responsibility:
A big contributor to conflict in threads is the sensitivity of the reader and an inability to know the true meaning or intent of a poster. Take for example your quoted examples of those “inappropriate” replies. I read the thread you are referring to on Juniper and think you are having a big overreaction the the suggestion of talking to a librarian about a book on the subject. I take that to be a great and helpful message, and I did not feel it was meant to be mean or even a joke. Librarian’s rock and they know how to find obscure books/information. There is a whole world of books that joe public can not access, especially with regard to research materials and studies. A librarian can search databases of content most people don’t have access to.

Otis

[Deplorable]

Boomers gonna boom.
Just gotta take em with a grain of salt.

Who you calling a boomer?

[jonnys_spirit]

Outlaw? Wtf? Try poking the bear a little harder next time but aim with your soul not your heart and let’s not forget the face of our absent fathers when out in the shed outlawin’.

Is this a stillin forum or a place for group hugs and sing alongs.



Run it already lol!

[The Baker]

Well, I am seriously offended.
I wrote this,
""go talk to a librarian. There must be an actual BOOK on the subject."
(without the offensive 'go') (and the word BOOK is in capitals to distinguish it from other sources of information)
and I meant exactly what I said.
The subject was toxicity of particular plants.
The person had been consulting the internet, which can be terribly unreliable.
They questioned the veracity of books on the subject and I reiterated that there were
(reliable, academically written) books on the subject.

Geoff

[The Baker]

I could have said much more, none of it complimentary, but I won't.

Geoff

[The Baker]

RockinRockies, you said, Hello everyone and especially the PIC.

What is a PIC?

Geoff

[Twisted Brick]

Yes, some folks are offensive in their replies but what do you expect from a large group of drunk and anonymous people.

It’s the folks who bring repeatedly proven wrong ideas to the site and quote them as gospel that get piled on, especially when they want to argue the point w/o putting any investment in effort other than typing.

[Stonecutter]

[RockinRockies]

I could have said much more, none of it complimentary, but I won't.

Geoff

Now, you see, that's exactly my point. I started writing a polite response and you have to go there. My original post is proven, but you are clearly in the fold so you get a free pass. I kept your name out to be respectful, and nothing I put in that thread was disrespectful. But you went there. I don't get it.

To the rest. I appreciate your criticism, even though I disagree with your perspective. And why was this locked after 4 replies and then reopened?

My points are valid and this stuff needs addressed. Their is an air of elitism and arrogance that is not welcoming. That's my point

[Stonecutter]

Oh for the love of Pete I hope this trend ends soon. I’m going to donate right now so that this site continues to offend people for years to come!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3757&sid=7823f22ee2 ... 8eb6b451bd

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Boomers gonna boom.
Just gotta take em with a grain of salt.

Who you calling a boomer?

Just the old and ornery ones.

[RockinRockies]

Oh for the love of Pete I hope this trend ends soon. I’m going to donate right now so that this site continues to offend people for years to come!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3757&sid=7823f22ee2 ... 8eb6b451bd

C'mon bud, are you equating me to that guy? There's a sizable difference between the way we approached our grievances. I purposely omitted the individual in a specific example, instead of calling out names in a trashy way. Am I the only person willing to admit mistakes and realize I need to work on things? Maybe, a fresh perspective and criticism is the status quo here isn't such a bad thing?

But, it's clear I stepped on the hornets nest. I figured this would happen. I appreciate the input, again, even though I disagree. And I stand by my sentiments. Regardless, thanks for all the information and assistance to those who are respectful.

[Stonecutter]

No man,
The truth is I didn’t even bother reading your whole post. Ive followed some of your topics and it seems like you’re a good dude but I guess I just don’t understand the point of rattling off whatever it is you’re trying to get all of us to understand. Look, I know I can be a dick. I’m sure I’ll get lit up by somebody on this site. It’s happened before. I think we’re all trying our best to mind our P’s and Q’s but that’s about as much as you can ask. No one gives a shit about our personal feelings and anyone that says they do is a liar. Again, membership isn’t a requirement.

[HDNB]

Oh for the love of Pete I hope this trend ends soon. I’m going to donate right now so that this site continues to offend people for years to come!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3757&sid=7823f22ee2 ... 8eb6b451bd

C'mon bud, are you equating me to that guy? There's a sizable difference between the way we approached our grievances. I purposely omitted the individual in a specific example, instead of calling out names in a trashy way. Am I the only person willing to admit mistakes and realize I need to work on things? Maybe, a fresh perspective and criticism is the status quo here isn't such a bad thing?

But, it's clear I stepped on the hornets nest. I figured this would happen. I appreciate the input, again, even though I disagree. And I stand by my sentiments. Regardless, thanks for all the information and assistance to those who are respectful.

i don't see much if any difference. i locked it so the mods could have a quick discussion and also because i'm tired of victimhood, especially keyboard social justice warriors. if you don't like someone's post, scroll on... i don't need to hear your how hurt your butt is. if it's a shite post there is a team here to deal with it. that's what the ! button is for.

a lock for me is a very rare thing, i'm deffo no censor, i just saw this going the same way as the thread from a week ago, nothing more than trolling for (in your words) an "ornery responses by elder members" for what purpose? in hopes they cross the line and get banned? it has happened more than once. There is zero respect shown in a post like this, while there may well be no malevolence it is definitely a mistake. This is not the most popular distilling forum on the planet because we are exclusive or exclusionary.

just my humble opinion, but i was wrong, the other mods thought it should be opened up again... so it is.

[cob]

why was this locked after 4 replies and then reopened?

curiosity.

Nobody anywhere needs to fit your mold!

You are just history repeating itself. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=86381

[Oldvine Zin]

Glad that this in the off topic board because it is really off topic for this great forum. Please people stop bitching about how non PC this site is and just read and hopefully gain some knowledge about the art of producing a fine drop, also grow some some thick skin. Remember you are on an internet forum.

Stay safe
OVZ

[jog666]

Stop being a wine bag child. Want to bitch and moan? Find a local place with cheap coffee and old men that have nothing better to do than bitch about everything or put your big girl panties on and go down to the beauty shop with the women. We are here for the information that goes along with making something to drink and a little bit of shooting the shit. Dont like it, move on and have fun else where.

[Truckinbutch]

I stand with the Forum and the MODS .

[Saltbush Bill]

Some of you kids need to realise this forum isn't your local kindergarten.
One of the things that I have noticed in the time that I've been in this hobby is that the amount of " Wannabe whiney Newbies" seems to increase in unison with the amount of cheap Chinese and off the shelf stills available.
Back when we had no choice but to build our own stills we didn't have these entitled little shits starting posts like this........people where serious about the hobby and were eager to learn.

[NormandieStill]

I've been using internet forums since the days of Usenet and I find this to be one of the nicest, even before allowing for the level of alcohol consumption inherent in a forum about home distilling. Compared to the comments section under most Youtube videos and the commentry articles on my favourite news site, the signal-to-noise ratio here is through the roof! I've seen more piling on from newer members than from the old guard.

There are a few consistently grumpy members, but they also often provide a lot of extrememly valuable information with their grump. You have to filter a little.

I don't agree with the macho "butt hurt" comments. I'm soft enough to think that the world would be a better place if everyone fought a little less, or worked a little harder to be polite. It's easy enough to disagree while being polite. "Grow a thicker skin" and similar remarks almost always lead to fights. That doesn't mean that you have to tiptoe around everyone, just not stomp on their toes as you pass!

And unless I'm missing vast amounts of activity here, I've not really seen a lot of "censorship". A little clean-up from time-to-time and the very occasionnal thread-lock when self-regulation is no longer holding.

[Sporacle]

I don't get it either Normandie, I don't see the censorship and you summed it up perfectly about the pile on.
I mean someone got upset with Geoff "The Baker"
that sums it up for me, how that could happen is beyond me.
I like it here, there is some awesome information and super knowledgeable folks ready to help.
Happy distilling

[juana_b]

This seems like a good example of a misinterpreted reply taken personally.
This doesn't bother me like that post a couple days ago did though. Bit my tongue for that one.

To the mods re: censorship. I'm in your house, not mine. Please don't hesitate to remove anything I post that you do not want here. Thank you for your service here.

To the "good 'ol boys club". You've spent years and years searching and researching, years and years of paying attention, years and years of hard work, years and years of making mistakes, and years and years of EARNING the respect of one another. Thank you for freely giving your knowledge.

To misinterpretation. Thank you for keeping me on my toes and making me read the same thing multiple times or asking questions to clarify.

I found this forum searching for answers and knowledge
and am still on this forum because I WILL be slapped for being out of line and I WILL be called out on mistakes I don't know I'm making.
Thank you for progressing my journey down the rabbit hole and not being my emotional support forum.

The past couple years has been difficult for humans on earth. People are on edge.
And lets remember, just because someone's bad day is directed at you, doesn't mean it has anything to do with you.

[kimbodious]

Grumpy old boomer, hey I resemble that insinuation!

I’ll spend a fair bit of time writing a considered response to a query if the user demonstrates that they have attempted to research the topic but still require some clarification/ confirmation. Just paying it forward for all the times I received generous assistance/ advice from other users.

On the other hand I’ve been well and truly browned off from users who expect spoon-feeding. I ignore those threads so that I don’t reinforce my status as a GOB.

You need to be a bit thick-skinned and resilient when you participate in online forums. It is easy to feel misunderstood or even maligned if users are abrupt or minimal in the text in their responses. They could just be one-finer typists or english might not their first language. It is all just text on a screen after all it isn’t going to physically harm you.

[Bradster68]

Well, I am seriously offended.
I wrote this,
""go talk to a librarian. There must be an actual BOOK on the subject."
(without the offensive 'go') (and the word BOOK is in capitals to distinguish it from other sources of information)
and I meant exactly what I said.
The subject was toxicity of particular plants.
The person had been consulting the internet, which can be terribly unreliable.
They questioned the veracity of books on the subject and I reiterated that there were
(reliable, academically written) books on the subject.

Geoff

Someone once told me anyone can post something on the internet. But it's alot harder to gather enough information, write and publish a book. So the book is probably ( and I use this term loosely) a solid source of information.
And by the way. My schooling on edible and non edible plants and mushrooms, all came from BOOKS.

[Bradster68]

RockinRockies, you said, Hello everyone and especially the PIC.

What is a PIC?

Geoff

I'm guessing "people in charge "?