Help With Design

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

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Yummyrum
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

Hebden wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:06 pm
Hebden wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 11:30 am Thanks all, I will remove the valve when I run the strips. I have ben searching for guidance on how to perform the stripping run, but there doesn't seem to be a novice section covering it. Has anyone got any idea of if there is a thread already covering this?
Right, I've cracked this, can't believe how dumb I am at times. Anyhow, seems I run full whack boiler but with shotgun doing its job and just so long as distillate is not coming out too hot. Seems easy enough. I am nearly educated to beginner level now!
You got it Hebden :thumbup: turn the key on , press the accelerator and enjoy the ride . :ebiggrin:

You spent too long in L plates , stick on the P’s and drive that baby
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Found a little suction cup which may help with suspension from the lid, twas only £4

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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Botanical collection started


4 Large Lemons produced 13g Dried Weight
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3 Large Oranges Produced 20g dried weight
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8 large Tangeringer Produced 42g Dried Weight - But I peeled by hand and so there is too much piff, next time I will peel with the peeler tool to obtain less piff.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Dented drum, too late to return... no problem

Screenshot_20221117_192634_Gallery.jpg

Trolley jack, heated drum to soften and used long bar to hit correct spot.

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Keeping the thread going for other newbies with ideas that other members of the forum have given me.

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My timber offcuts were not big enough to build a hut big enough for the fan, it will be OK for run 1.

I'll put a towel roof on my blue bin house.

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OPTION 1:-
Do the more experienced members think placing the stat inside my wash/mash drum is OK for this heater stat setup?

OPTION 2:-
My alternate option is to use a separate thermometer in the wash and manually keep an eye on the wash/mash temp.
Whilst getting used to controlling my environment box with the fan stat setup.

My suspension is Option 2 would be best?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I do similar and I only focus on maintaining a consistent air temp. Be careful to not blow heated air directly at the fermenter. My box is totally enclosed. The heater doesn't blow directly on the fermenter. I even have a little $5 fan that recirculates air whenever the heater kicks on (not necessary, just being thorough). I had an extra WiFi camera so I stuck it in there too. I can see if/when the airlock starts to bubble away. If I have a thermometer in the drum, I can see what the temp is too.
Fermentation Chamber.jpg


If you heat the air, but have the temp probe inside the fermenter, the air will get extremely warm before it begins to affect the temp within the fermenter. Think of it like a glass of water inside of a pot of water over a stove. If you put the temp probe inside of the glass of water, the pot of water would get real hot before the glass of water comes up to temp. Of course water is much more conductive than air, but I hope you get the point.

If the air is the same temp as the fermenting wash then it will maintain a stable wash temp. Of course we know that fermentation creates heat on its own, but if you occasionally check the wash's temp you'll see that the temp doesn't spike. With the same example as earlier, if the pot on the stove's temp is regulated, the glass of water within will maintain the same temp as in the pot.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks once again Salt, that pretty much confirms my suspicion of settion up 2. Yes my fan looks really close, it will be moved back when in use, I may make a cardboard chute to distance it, this run is just to get me going now as I am just getting eager.

My drum is 150L and my wash cals are for 150L, meaning I can fill it perfectly full. But, does a wash or mash expand, as there will just be 1" to spare?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:06 pm Thanks once again Salt, that pretty much confirms my suspicion of settion up 2. Yes my fan looks really close, it will be moved back when in use, I may make a cardboard chute to distance it, this run is just to get me going now as I am just getting eager.

My drum is 150L and my wash cals are for 150L, meaning I can fill it perfectly full. But, does a wash or mash expand, as there will just be 1" to spare?
No, sugar washes don't foam if they are just left alone. I've made the mistake of using a drill & mixing paddle mid fermentation and it foamed over very quickly because mixing releases a lot of co2. Yeah don't do that.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

So does a mash expand if or when I or do one with cracked corn?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

S***, I think I have gone and ruined my first run I think.

I'm doing Shady's sugar shine, all going well only I pitched the yeast into the fermenter before I had taken a PH or SG read. I did get the temp to 91.6F though.

Yeast was bubbling away on top by the time I realised and went to check things, when I sank the PH meter in past the floating pitched yeast, I read 7.1 to 7.4 and I didn't know if I had cleared enough free surface area to get a clean read or it was the actual current PH that was slowly rising as the meter acclimatised.

Then I tried taking the SG (yes in the fermenter, is that wrong) and the print was so small I had to remove it. But I think it said 1.048. It was 1 line above the 5.0 mark in blue.

Please could anyone tell me how badly I have messed up and if I can salvage things?

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Re: Help With Design

Post by squigglefunk »

if it's fermenting then you haven't messed things up too bad :) Definitely doesn't sound "ruined"

PH and SG readings have nothing to do with how it will ferment, in fact they aren't even "necessary" - but they can help inform you for sure.
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Re: Help With Design

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Hebden wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:06 am S***, I think I have gone and ruined my first run I think.

I'm doing Shady's sugar shine, all going well only I pitched the yeast into the fermenter before I had taken a PH or SG read. I did get the temp to 91.6F though.

Yeast was bubbling away on top by the time I realised and went to check things, when I sank the PH meter in past the floating pitched yeast, I read 7.1 to 7.4 and I didn't know if I had cleared enough free surface area to get a clean read or it was the actual current PH that was slowly rising as the meter acclimatised.

Then I tried taking the SG (yes in the fermenter, is that wrong) and the print was so small I had to remove it. But I think it said 1.048. It was 1 line above the 5.0 mark in blue.

Please could anyone tell me how badly I have messed up and if I can salvage things?


Screenshot_20221118_190641_Gallery.jpg
If you followed the recipe it will turn out. Fermentation is a big steep learning curve, next time you will be more aware of taking readings before you pitch. It isn't a big deal. I don't even take gravity readings most of the time, I will sometimes with an all grain to check efficiency, or to see what a new recipe is doing, otherwise no worries.

With sugar as your only fermentable it is really easy to calculate the gravity within 0.002 just by knowing how much sugar and water you used.

If you followed his instructions about the shells pH will be on autopilot. You can relax, it's going to be just fine.
:)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Around 84F-85F is said to be the ideal fermentation temp.

Ideally the starting ph should be pH of 5.2 - 5.6 which is done by adding Citric Acid. Calcium Carbonate or Crushed Oyster Shell should be suspended to buffer the ph.

The Hydrometer that tests the Specific Gravity is calibrated for 60F, but there are temp correction charts to get an accurate reading.

As said before, if it is fermenting then it's not a loss. If you adjust the parameters closer to the 'ideal' range then it will ferment better.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by shadylane »

Hebden wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:06 am
when I sank the PH meter in past the floating pitched yeast, I read 7.1 to 7.4

Sounds like everything is good.
Check the pH in a couple hours and it will be around 5.0
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Well a massive thanks for all your inputs gentlemen, you guys set my mind at ease.

So 4 hrs later, I opened up the big blue drum, PH 4.1 and temp 92.5F (92.5f = 0.9f increase)

Next time, I must remember, that the ferment temperature has not dropped but risen in temp.

So far, I have had my little enviro box on keeping a min temp of 85f = ~82f to ~87f.
But now I know how the ferment reacts, I'll lower the enviro box temp to ~80f overnight. (I'll do this before I start)

Next time, I will start my wash closer to 85f too.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

shadylane wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:09 pm Sounds like everything is good.
Shady, thank you very much for providing an easy starter recipe btw, it is very much appreciated :lol:
Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:24 pm Around 84F-85F is said to be the ideal fermentation temp.

Ideally the starting ph should be pH of 5.2 - 5.6 which is done by adding Citric Acid. Calcium Carbonate or Crushed Oyster Shell should be suspended to buffer the ph.

The Hydrometer that tests the Specific Gravity is calibrated for 60F, but there are temp correction charts to get an accurate reading.

As said before, if it is fermenting then it's not a loss. If you adjust the parameters closer to the 'ideal' range then it will ferment better.
Salt as ever, you have been a stalwart, you more than anybody have given me so much helpful advice and have endured my minutely detailed enquiries, I thank you for you patience sir :clap:

ps my garage and all that is above now smells like a bread shop, it is quite nice:)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

The trick is to heat only enough water so that when you top off the fermenter, your temp is 85F. I heat 8 gal of water to 110F, add some water to the fermenter, dump in all of the hot water, mix in all of the sugar, mix in the rest of the ingredients, top off the fermenter water and it is 85F. Your exact ratio could be different due to the temp of the water you use to top off your fermenter.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bunny »

Hebden wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:24 pm Well a massive thanks for all your inputs gentlemen, you guys set my mind at ease.

So 4 hrs later, I opened up the big blue drum, PH 4.1 and temp 92.5F (92.5f = 0.9f increase)

Next time, I must remember, that the ferment temperature has not dropped but risen in temp.

So far, I have had my little enviro box on keeping a min temp of 85f = ~82f to ~87f.
But now I know how the ferment reacts, I'll lower the enviro box temp to ~80f overnight. (I'll do this before I start)

Next time, I will start my wash closer to 85f too.

IMHO, if you doubled Shady's recipe to make 40 gallons to fill your blue thing and you leave it inside the box set to 80*f be prepared for major temp rise possibly over 100*f.

I usually ferment between 93 and 98* on a very similar recipe without issue.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bcook608 »

Hebden wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:24 pm Well a massive thanks for all your inputs gentlemen, you guys set my mind at ease.

So 4 hrs later, I opened up the big blue drum, PH 4.1 and temp 92.5F (92.5f = 0.9f increase)

Next time, I must remember, that the ferment temperature has not dropped but risen in temp.

So far, I have had my little enviro box on keeping a min temp of 85f = ~82f to ~87f.
But now I know how the ferment reacts, I'll lower the enviro box temp to ~80f overnight. (I'll do this before I start)

Next time, I will start my wash closer to 85f too.
If it's already at 4.1, if you haven't already, make sure you add some oyster shell or other buffer so it doesn't get too low.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

bcook608 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:22 pm If it's already at 4.1, if you haven't already, make sure you add some oyster shell or other buffer so it doesn't get too low.
Well if I hadn't knackered my first run, I am certainly trying. The container I used for my oyster shells had tighter holes than I anticipated, but I had used it anyhow, filled with 3 cups that weren't getting the correct surface contact I guess.

Run Time: 11hrs
Temp = 89.8f PH = 3.1
Added 1.5tbsp of calcium hydroxide & my final 1/4 cup crushed oyster shells. Fingers crossed for next PH read.

Run Time: 12.5hrs
Temp = 89.1f PH = 3.6
Added +1tbsp Ca(OH)2 (this increased ph by 0.3 - checked at 14hrs)
Also removed enviro box top towels to lower temp of wash.

Run Time: 14hrs
Temp = 88.5 PH = 3.9
Added +2tbsp Ca(OH)2 (this increased ph by 0.2 - checked at 17hrs)
Also replaced enviro box top towels as I fear if wash drops too low I'll not return to temp so easy.

Run Time: 17.5hrs
Temp = 88.5f PH = 4.1
Added 2.5tbsp Ca(OH)2 (this increased ph by 0.1 - checked at 23hrs)

Run Time: 23hrs
Temp = 87.6 PH = 4.2 (more Ca(OH)2 seems pointless)

Run Time: 28.5hrs
Temp = 88 PH = 4.3

Run Time: 48hrs
Temp = 87.3 PH = 4.6

As for the ferment, it is bubbling away nicely like a glass of soda and smelling sweet. Temp now 87.3f

Temp seems to do its own thing during first 24hrs, I am thinking no heating required?

And with the enviro box set to 85 recently, it appeared obvious my box was keeping the wash up in temp during the second 24hrs. And so, earlier today, I dropped it to enviro box setting to 84f and will address it in the morning.

Running Total additional Ca(OH)2 = 7tbsp
Last edited by Hebden on Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:24 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Ben »

Hebden wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:24 pm So 4 hrs later, I opened up the big blue drum, PH 4.1 and temp 92.5F (92.5f = 0.9f increase)

Next time, I will start my wash closer to 85f too.
Bunny already addressed this, but ferments are exothermic, temp will rise more with larger batches.

Sounds like you have everything working fine.
:)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Ben wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:56 am
Hebden wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:24 pm So 4 hrs later, I opened up the big blue drum, PH 4.1 and temp 92.5F (92.5f = 0.9f increase)

Next time, I will start my wash closer to 85f too.
Bunny already addressed this, but ferments are exothermic, temp will rise more with larger batches.

Sounds like you have everything working fine.
OK so, I see Bunny's response but I did not understand it unfortunately.

I know low PH is a bad thing, but it appears to me that adding Ca(OH)2 is like pissing in the wind.

So could somebody please tell me why (and at which point) I need to worry about low PH?

I gather at some point a low PH will kill the "Sugar Wash" ferment...although I am not sure where!
But at which PH point is it acceptable to just say, I am in no rush, let it run its course?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by elbono »

viewtopic.php?p=7117521

I always thow in a handful of crushed oyster shell in case ph crashes. I've never noticed them being consumed so I probably don't need them.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bunny »

Hebden wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:17 am
Ben wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:56 am
Hebden wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:24 pm So 4 hrs later, I opened up the big blue drum, PH 4.1 and temp 92.5F (92.5f = 0.9f increase)

Next time, I will start my wash closer to 85f too.
Bunny already addressed this, but ferments are exothermic, temp will rise more with larger batches.

Sounds like you have everything working fine.
OK so, I see Bunny's response but I did not understand it unfortunately.

I know low PH is a bad thing, but it appears to me that adding Ca(OH)2 is like pissing in the wind.

So could somebody please tell me why (and at which point) I need to worry about low PH?

I gather at some point a low PH will kill the "Sugar Wash" ferment...although I am not sure where!
But at which PH point is it acceptable to just say, I am in no rush, let it run its course?
I'll try to be clearer :D

If you are using municipal water you should be able to get a water quality report from them.
It will make things a lot easier to work with it.
Your results so far indicate you have fairly soft water (low total hardness).
You need to get a more than adequate amount of shells added immediately after mixing in your yeast. Don't wait until tomorrow, put it all in at once.
I used to use these guys in a 12 gallon batch and removed them at 48 hours.
P1050116.JPG
My pH would be around mid 4's at 24 hours and the same at 48 hours.
If you're going to do a 40 gallon batch you're probably going to need more.

My opinion is you shouldn't have to mess with the pH if you get the CaCO3 right in the beginning. If you use shells you will always need a large excess to provide enough surface area for the CO2 to attack.

A lot depends on your pH measuring kit. You should be just fine with your wash at or above 4.0. 3.5 should get you to pay attention as you can expect your wash to stall at 3.2 ish. Once you get the initial amount of CaCO2 figured out you should be able to just mix up a batch and let 'er go with an eye on the temp of course.

If you weigh your dry shells before and again after(when dry) you will know just how much CaCO3 was consumed by the CO2.

You may have noticed Shady hasn't told you a starting pH.
That's because it really depends on YOUR water, not anyone else's.

FWIW:
As of Thursday my yeasties have chewed through just over 1700 pounds of sugar in 106 16lb x 12g batches.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks Bunny & co., well my 28.5hr read had 88f & 4.3ph. Hopefully there isn't another ph crash in the night and I can get some sleep.
It is worse than having kids babysitting this chaos!

Wash is still bubblin away like a fresh glass of soda.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Run Time: 2 mins (I messed up and took PH & SG after pitch)
Temp = 91.6 PH = 7.4 SG = 1.051 - temp corrected

Run Time: 11hrs
Temp = 89.8f PH = 3.1
Added 1.5tbsp of calcium hydroxide & my final 1/4 cup crushed oyster shells. Fingers crossed for next PH read.

Run Time: 12.5hrs
Temp = 89.1f PH = 3.6
Added +1tbsp Ca(OH)2 (this increased ph by 0.3 - checked at 14hrs)
Also removed enviro box top towels to lower temp of wash.

Run Time: 14hrs
Temp = 88.5 PH = 3.9
Added +2tbsp Ca(OH)2 (this increased ph by 0.2 - checked at 17hrs)
Also replaced enviro box top towels as I fear if wash drops too low I'll not return to temp so easy.

Run Time: 17.5hrs
Temp = 88.5f PH = 4.1
Added 2.5tbsp Ca(OH)2 (this increased ph by 0.1 - checked at 23hrs)

Run Time: 23hrs
Temp = 87.6 PH = 4.2 (more Ca(OH)2 seems pointless)

Run Time: 28.5hrs
Temp = 88 PH = 4.3

Run Time: 48hrs
Temp = 87.3 PH = 4.6

Run Time: 60hrs
Temp = 87.3 PH = 4.8 SG = 1.018 - temp corrected

Run Time: 72hrs
Temp = 86.4 PH = 4.8 SG = 1.012 - temp corrected

Run Time: 96hrs
Temp = 87.4 PH = 4.6 SG = 1.004 - temp corrected

I guess I should have been taking SG readings all along despite not taking initial SG until after pitch, so I thought I'd start. However I do not know how good this data will be now.

I am taking temp in a fizzing drum, it cannot be accurate!
Last edited by Hebden on Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bluefish_dist »

I would not worry about ph until it gets below 4.0. Then adjust just to get back above 4.0. Doesn’t need to be much above that to finish. Adjust down the start ph to 5.0-5.5 and it will finish better. Add acid to adjust down, usually won’t take much. Can also add both acid and calcium at start which makes a buffer which is useful on sugar washes.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:11 am I would not worry about ph until it gets below 4.0. Then adjust just to get back above 4.0. Doesn’t need to be much above that to finish. Adjust down the start ph to 5.0-5.5 and it will finish better. Add acid to adjust down, usually won’t take much. Can also add both acid and calcium at start which makes a buffer which is useful on sugar washes.
What I am not comprehending (and I trust you are correct) is why you add acid to adjust down despite the fact that the sugar wash's pull themselves down below our liking without.
Is it like in mathematics when two negtives make a positive?

The calcium I fully understand and implemented, it's just my method was poor, I will use hanging bags next time.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bluefish_dist »

You started at 7 ish. That’s too high for optimal yeast propagation. By adding a small amount of acid, you reduce ph down to around 5 which helps the yeast. Then as it drops the calcium keeps it from crashing. Yeast will work down into the mid 3’s, but works best around 4. By keeping it lower than 5 while fermenting you reduce the chance of infection too. My one infection was when I added too much calcium and brought it up into the mid to high 4’s.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bcook608 »

Hebden wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:42 am
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:11 am I would not worry about ph until it gets below 4.0. Then adjust just to get back above 4.0. Doesn’t need to be much above that to finish. Adjust down the start ph to 5.0-5.5 and it will finish better. Add acid to adjust down, usually won’t take much. Can also add both acid and calcium at start which makes a buffer which is useful on sugar washes.
What I am not comprehending (and I trust you are correct) is why you add acid to adjust down despite the fact that the sugar wash's pull themselves down below our liking without.
Is it like in mathematics when two negtives make a positive?

The calcium I fully understand and implemented, it's just my method was poor, I will use hanging bags next time.
It's about keeping the yeasties happy. The smaller the PH swing, the less stress on the yeast. They'll have a better time propagating and everything should (in theory assuming everything else goes according to plan) stabilize quicker. Having the PH around 5 also allows more of your shell to be dissolved into solution, buffering more efficiently.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Run Time: 2 mins (I messed up and took PH & SG after pitch)
Temp = 91.6 PH = 7.4 SG = 1.051 - temp corrected

Run Time: 11hrs
Temp = 89.8f PH = 3.1
Added 1.5tbsp of calcium hydroxide & my final 1/4 cup crushed oyster shells. Fingers crossed for next PH read.

Run Time: 12.5hrs
Temp = 89.1f PH = 3.6
Added +1tbsp Ca(OH)2 (this increased ph by 0.3 - checked at 14hrs)
Also removed enviro box top towels to lower temp of wash.

Run Time: 14hrs
Temp = 88.5 PH = 3.9
Added +2tbsp Ca(OH)2 (this increased ph by 0.2 - checked at 17hrs)
Also replaced enviro box top towels as I fear if wash drops too low I'll not return to temp so easy.

Run Time: 17.5hrs
Temp = 88.5f PH = 4.1
Added 2.5tbsp Ca(OH)2 (this increased ph by 0.1 - checked at 23hrs)

Run Time: 23hrs
Temp = 87.6 PH = 4.2 (more Ca(OH)2 seems pointless)

Run Time: 28.5hrs
Temp = 88 PH = 4.3

Run Time: 48hrs
Temp = 87.3 PH = 4.6

Run Time: 60hrs
Temp = 87.3 PH = 4.8 SG = 1.018 - temp corrected

Run Time: 72hrs
Temp = 86.4 PH = 4.8 SG = 1.012 - temp corrected

Run Time: 96hrs
Temp = 87.4 PH = 4.6 SG = 1.004 - temp corrected

Run Time: 120hrs
Temp = 86.0 PH = 4.4 SG = 0.998 - temp corrected

Run Time: 144hrs
Temp = 85.1 PH = 4.4 SG = 0.994 - temp corrected

Run Time: 168hrs
Temp = 85.6 PH = 4.4 SG = 0.994 - temp corrected

Fizzing has slowed to very slow, temp and ph both dropped. Looks like it is almost complete I think, no air-locks so going by instincts.

Looks like 7.35% ABV atm, however my start read was pathetic in fact all were done in a fizzing drum.

ps Made an easy pair of thermocouple to test condenser out temps a là :-
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Last edited by Hebden on Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:39 am, edited 4 times in total.
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