Help With Design

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Hebden
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Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Modular 3 inch Compound Still with Reflux Coil and Graham Condenser.jpg
Hi Guys,

(please bear in mind I am very much an absolute beginner and new to the distilling game)

I hope you don't mind me posting again, I have been deep in research recently after being told to read The Compleat Distillers Guide, which I am a good part way through, which has got me to where I am making this post as I want to start the boiler build as I continue research.

That same advisor said that I should build a modular keg and the column should be 3" (or 4") in case I ever wished to upscale production, then I would already be part way.

So, after lots of researching I have decided that would not be impossible for me to manufacture the still pictured and I believe it would be versatile enough being modular in design so as to use as a simpler fractioning still or pot still if I ever wanted.

At this stage, I would just like a little advise as the book and the mathematics and my lack of practical experience are a but limiting to me.

1) Can my 5.5kW ULWD element cope ok with this setup and vice versa?

My keg needs the original attachment cutting off, the manufacturer has made it impossible to remove without cutting.

2) With that being the case, I have purchased both 2" and 3" Tri-Clamp Ferrules to choose to weld to the keg. If the original question is a YES, then I suppose I need to install the 3" collar don't I?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by zapata »

Hebden wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:32 am That same advisor said that I should build a modular keg and the column should be 3" (or 4") in case I ever wished to upscale production, then I would already be part way.
Column width determines how fast you can distill a given amount, which is also phrased as how much power you still can handle. Column width is also inseparable from column height and the wider a column, the taller it needs to be for everything else to be equal. I would make sure you want to work in the production rates, power ranges and heights dictate by the column. A 4 inch packed column is very generally bad advice, they are simply oversized for the amount of product hobbyists deal with and few hobbyists want to make them as tall as they need to be to justify the investment.
(so no offense, but I'd generally question the qualifications of whoever is advising you to consider a 4" packed column)
But all that to say, don't start with the column width as a spec unless you know why it would be the spec. Start with production as measured either in boiler power or distillation rate and size the column to handle it. Very roughly, 2" can handle up to 2kw, 3" can handle up to 4.5kw, 4" can handle up to 8kw. Regarding height, it depends on what you want to make but packed columns are commonly in the 15-20xD range. How high are your ceilings?
1) Can my 5.5kW ULWD element cope ok with this setup and vice versa?
Yes for up to a 3" column. IMHO insufficient to optimize or justify a 4" column.
My keg needs the original attachment cutting off, the manufacturer has made it impossible to remove without cutting.
This isn't a common US keg then? You feel confident this is the case?
2) With that being the case, I have purchased both 2" and 3" Tri-Clamp Ferrules to choose to weld to the keg. If the original question is a YES, then I suppose I need to install the 3" collar don't I?
I would install at least a 4" ferrule and adapt it down. 4" is a lot easier to clean through. Honestly, you really want a 6" ferrule, but then the ferrule, clamp, and adapter are insanely expensive. But if that money is in the budget, it is money well spent. 4" hardware and adapters are pretty affordable IMHO.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

I agree with Zapata .
I went from a 2” to a 4” . It is ridiculously tall . I have to sit it on a 80liter keg full of low wines . Then the packed column is 2 metres tall with the head on top of that .
I have to run it outside and strap it to my carport roof for stability . I need a ladder to climb up and adjust the head .

I need a lot of gas to keep it going , usually takes two 9kg bottles , and a huge coolant tank otherwise the water gets too hot before the runs done .

All in all its a pain in the arse and I’ve gone back to my 2” and considering a 3” as it is a far more practical size .

Regarding the keg . I’d also be surprised if the spear can’t be removed . How about a pic . We should be able to identify it . Once you know what style it is , it will make searching for how to remove the spear much easier.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Sorry about this cock up, I was trying to add an update, it needed editind and my latest post (Wednesday) ended up here which was so early in the thread.
I have edited the Tuesday thread to this just so you guys understand what I did and the latest post is back where it belongs at the end of the thread. Nobody will miss what this used to say I am sure (I cannot remember).
Last edited by Hebden on Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Oatmeal »

Interesting. I'll scratch 4" packed column off of my to do list. Thanks Zapata and yummyrum. Most informative!

(3" has been very good to me for what it's worth)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

aviary-image-1647389430709.jpeg
Here's me part way in after brutalising the inner section. A friend has a laser cutter so I may just cut whole thing off.
aviary-image-1647389468061.jpeg
aviary-image-1647389584764.jpeg
I believe the circled part is where the manufacturers have stamped the keg collar into the spear in order to stop folk like me unscrewing it.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I also think four inch is too big for a hobby reflux, as stated height is one problem you will encounter. Personally I run a 3 inch Boka, 3 inch is more than adequate to deal with anything most people are ever going to want to do on a hobby scale.
2 inch reflux stills are notoriously slow, 3 gives you quite a bit of extra product output speed.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by acfixer69 »

If i had to make the change I would go to a 4" furrel and reduce to 3" if running a 3" packed column. I get what salty is saying but the plate column guys do well with a 4" 4 plate with "ME" 24" long 4" lava rock packed atop makes a dam clean sipping vodka. I don't make gin so won't say that it is the mostest neutral. It does make a clean off the spout sipper. IMO.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I agree with Saltbush Bill, a 3" is perfectly suitable for a 15.5 gal keg. I use this myself for spirit runs and it is perfectly sized. My motto is go big or go home if you think you will be in the hobby for the long haul otherwise you'll just end up reinvesting all over again to upgrade. If you want to do it once and be done ... I say go 3", but honestly I have never gone larger. I have absolutely no input on a larger diameter column other than I've read it requires more power and runs faster.

That old pic looks like it is a LM (Liquid Management) still. Personally I went with a VM (Vapor Management) still. The damn thing just runs itself and tells you with the vapor temp and the output when tails is about to come.

Your ceiling should be plenty high for an adequate length of 3" column as long as the column packing is effective. I've tested packing that proved to be poor and my column height exceeded your height limitations. I currently use Lava Rock sized to approx 3/8", it works amazing and exceeds the performance of some SPP (Spiral Prismatic Packing) that is produced.

I don't have the time right now, but tomorrow I'll give you some pictures of my boiler so you can see how you can make clear access to your 4" port for filling/cleaning. Basically I cut away the front portion of the rim that protrudes above the keg. A lot of people do this because that rim in the front serves no purpose, but blocks access to the Tri-Clamp ferrule.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

acfixer69 wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:31 pm I get what salty is saying but the plate column guys do well with a 4" 4 plate with "ME" 24" long 4" lava rock packed atop
Agreed AC.....if I was trying to run a packed section on top of a plated column I would go 4 inch......I didn't go down that path because I thought this was only about packed reflux columns.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Setsumi »

I would look into VM heads and CCVM heads aswell. If you stick to the LM, install your product valve as close to the seperating resevior
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Interim Progress 1.jpg

I have trimmed the keg to see what fits on top. Lovely as a 6" ferrule would be, I don't think it fits so easily. I mean it would fit, but I want to fill this rig as I go without removing the column and therefore I have opted for a 4" Ferrule reduced to 3" for the column.
Then a 2nd 4" Ferrule for the cleaning/filling point so as not to dismantle.

My Still Design Not Completed.jpg

I have taken on board many of your comments and VM seems a popular piece of advice, I am confused as to what exactly makes it VM as opposed to CM. Would a 500mm Shotgun do that trick?

I have highlighted Green a few areas where I am struggling despite research. I think this is because a lot of it needs practical experience which I don't have.
If anyone could hepl with the Green bits, I would be grateful.

ps (Not Highlighted, but should the valve come off in a 3" to 2" T and then continue in 2" to the shotgun?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Oatmeal »

Check out CM, LM, VM Confusion. The shotgun or Graham condenser is to cool the product, while a dephlagamator or reflux condenser sends reflux back down the column....
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks Oat,
I'll read up on CM, LM, VM Confusion to.

I like the idea of VM if is as said, it almost runs itself. Efficiency is key.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden, a LM head collects some reflux that falls from the reflux condenser while the rest overflows and continues falling down to the column. There is usually a small valve on the output. If you crack the valve open, some liquid condensate comes out then enters a relatively small product condenser. The purpose of this product condenser is just to cool the liquid condensate. You vary your reflux ratio by managing the amount of liquid/reflux you take off the still (Liquid Management). The Boka is a very common and simple design.
Image

A VM (Vapor Management) head is a bit more involved than a LM head. Below the reflux condenser there is a tee. The tee is often reduced to a gate valve which leads to a product condenser. When you crack open the gate valve, vapor is allowed through, condenses in the product condenser and exits as 60F collected product/ethanol. A 3" VM still only needs a 1" gate valve which will remain most of the way closed throughout a spirit run. You vary your reflux ratio by managing the amount of vapor you allow out of the still. VM stills are not drastically affected by fluctuations in water pressure or water temp. VM stills run very steady. The vapor temp usually only fluctuates within a couple 1/10ths of a degree F throughout the entire run right up until tails. Once you see the temp rise a couple of 1/10ths and stays, you know tails is about to come then the temp rises higher and higher indicating that it is time to shut down. There is typically a thermowell or thermometer port between the tee and the gate valve to measure the vapor temp (not the falling reflux). There a lot of options regarding tees. There are reducer tees, short tees and you can make your own short reducer tee with just a spool and a ferrule. The very top of the reflux condenser can be left open, if capped, the cap MUST be vented (drill a hole). I personally like to have a sight glass below the tee so I can see the falling reflux. If height is an issue, I'd consider the sight glass as a luxury if you have the height to spare.
VM Head.jpg
Water Line Connections.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks Salt Must Flow,

edit: sorry I misread earlier
So vapour managed is the vapour being managed as in how much is refluxed or sent away as a gas by the reflux condenser at the top of column.
Nothing to do with the product condenser (shotgun vapour condenser). And nothing to do with any dephlegmator being below the reflux or Tee take off?

I'll really must still read up later on the advised thread:)

Started cleaning my keg, hands still viprating, I'll finish tomorrow now but when it goes for welding, I want the welder to see the standard I'm after.

I think I'll have a go with building my own shotgun, should be a usefull skill if nothing else.

Cleaning Keg Up.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:16 am Thanks Salt Must Flow,

edit: sorry I misread earlier
so vapour managed is the vapour being managed as in how much is refluxed and how much is condensed by means of a reflux condenser and nothing to do with a dephlegmator below? I'll really must still read up later on the advised thread:)

Started cleaning my keg, hands still viprating, I'll finish tomorrow now but when it goes for welding, I want the welder to see the standard I'm after.

I think I'll have a go with building my own shotgun, should be a usefull skill if nothing else.
Yes, you are managing the vapor rather than managing the liquid condensate like you do in a LM. You'll have a tee on top of the column and a reflux condenser above the tee as shown in the picture I posted earlier. All vapor rises, condenses on the reflux condenser and all of the reflux falls down onto the column packing. When you crack the gate valve open a little, it allows some vapor to come out and be condensed by your product condenser whether it be a shotgun condenser, Liebig condenser, etc...

Shotgun condensers are amazing for stripping runs. I use my shotgun for spirit runs too though it is overkill. During a spirit run it barely requires a dribble of water because you will be running at a much lower power level than you do in a stripping run.

A VM still does not use a dephlegmator at all. Dephlegmators look like a very short shotgun condenser. Dephlegmators are commonly used for certain CM designs as well as some pot stills with bubble caps or plates. Dephlegmators require precise water control and are sensitive to fluctuations in pressure/flow.

A double wound copper coil is perfectly adequate for a reflux condenser.
Reflux Condenser 03.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

This is the same gate valve I used. It's a Sharpe 1" socket weld stainless steel gate valve. I had a 1-1/2" Tri-Clamp ferrule TIG welded to both ends. If you shop around you can find good deals. I know some use ball valves, but gate valves offer easy, precise and repeatable adjustment. There are a lot of different ways of building a VM head. Here's a valve that's threaded for $25.99
VM Parts 02.jpg
VM Parts 03.jpg
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bluefish_dist »

6713011B-8657-49A4-97E6-579BFEC4C60D.jpeg
Here is my lm/vm head. Its sort of a offset Nixon-stone with a VM takeoff. It’s a 4” column that reduces to 2” for the T’s. Reflux condenser is 2” on this version. The needle valve is the lm takeoff. Minimal welding is required to build it. Also comes apart if needed as it’s all tri clamps.

A later version had a Thor’s hammer condenser for reduced height.

I would agree a 3” is right for a keg still. I would not run a 2” as they are quite slow.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bluefish_dist »

52DF2E3F-C28F-4663-8E7B-13A353A04357.jpeg
52DF2E3F-C28F-4663-8E7B-13A353A04357.jpeg (26.92 KiB) Viewed 3533 times
Another view of the still.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Hebden I'm not sure where you found this example of an LM " Liquid Management" still but it could be confusing, seems to not be a normal design. What they term the "separator"
a wierd LM.jpg
The one below using slant plates is a much more common and popular design.
Looking at it and how it works may clear up a little of the confusion.
There are many Boka builds and designs around the forum if you search and want to look at more.
a lm.jpg
For what its worth many LM style stills are built without a product condenser, what leaves the still doesn't need to be condensed and is below boiling point.
My personal preference is to use a product condenser on a LM but it only needs to be small, it will only be cooling a couple of Liters an hour.
The above only applies if you don't intend using the Still in pot mode or for stripping.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks again Salt Must Flow and of course BlueFish,

Both of your pictures have really helped and I did read the link to:- VM, LM, CM and it is clearer what the design labels mean now. viewtopic.php?t=6151

In the above link, appears a common thought of mine as I "hope" to buy a fementer with a 360L capacity which I may well not fully utilise.
But knowing that for myself, I may well be running 150 at minimum and 300L (on a good day) of wash at a time this keeps cropping up in my mind and I cannot find the answer other than the Myles response below.
myles wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:31 am
Greg1234 wrote:What is the difference in take off rates between CM and VM ?
If you had a CM still and a VM still with all the major dimensions the same and both reflux condensers removing the same amount of energy, the volume of product and collection rates would be the same.
So now I can identify VM, CM, LM (the simple ones), is there a link to assess the flow rates that I can expect with the pictured "VM" :thumbup: system pictured below? Will I be running for 2 or 3 days with my ~200L wash?

Is VM the system to use?
And would another Element help increase production?
I'll just add that where I am, I have tons of water it rains every day in Yorkshire, so CM is an option:)

My Still Design Not Completed.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 1:43 pm Hebden I'm not sure where you found this example of an LM " Liquid Management" still but it could be confusing, seems to not be a normal design. What they term the "separator"
a wierd LM.jpg
That was an easy graphic stolen from "The Compleat Distiller" book that I have been reading. My previous post is most up to date design with my personal pot and room dimensions incorporated.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

It appears I am height restricted doesn't it. So I have a choice, I either make do with 200mm of "total heigh including inlet/outlet" of Reflux coil or I shorten the column.

My column is designed at 20 x diameter of 76mm pipe. What should I do?

And what production rates should I get if anyone has any ideas?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

Have you considered a Thors hammer ( crossflow) Reflux condenser ? They will save you some height.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Hebden wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:44 pm "The Compleat Distiller" book that I have been reading.
A lot of the books that I have looked at over the years are quite out dated, you will find the best and most up to date info and designs here.
This hobby evolves constantly.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:07 pm A lot of the books that I have looked at over the years are quite out dated, you will find the best and most up to date info and designs here.
This hobby evolves constantly.
Yes I am starting to gather this is the case, but the book is still very informative to give me a good insight.

I had also considered this book (https://amphora-society-com.3dcartstore ... u_p_3.html) as it seems complete designs are difficult to find on this forum without intensive searching and the need to bug you all. But Riku's book may also be a little biased and out of date.
Yummyrum wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:03 pm Have you considered a Thors hammer ( crossflow) Reflux condenser ? They will save you some height.
Nope, never heard of them until BlueFish posted his and tbh, it looked too complicated for my wee brain to take in after all this time. I'll look into them.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by acfixer69 »

Hebden wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:16 pm .

I had also considered this book (https://amphora-society-com.3dcartstore ... u_p_3.html) as it seems complete designs are difficult to find on this forum without intensive searching and the need to bug you all. But Riku's book may also be a little biased and out of date.

Riku's book is mostly about automation.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Wouldn't two 45 elbows and a double coil reflux condenser set at an angle work? With two 45 elbows you can create any angle. As long as the angle is pitched just enough, all reflux would flow back down. I don't recall ever seeing this done in this forum, but I don't see why it wouldn't work while also saving height in comparison to a vertical reflux condenser.

Not necessarily ideal, but I have seen where some have turned their keg boiler on its side to save height when distilling in a basement with low ceilings.

I've seen where some have cut a hole in their ceiling and made room for the condenser. They boxed in the hole so it was finished on the interior and insulated above as well.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:01 pm Wouldn't two 45 elbows and a double coil reflux condenser set at an angle work? With two 45 elbows you can create any angle. As long as the angle is pitched just enough, all reflux would flow back down. I don't recall ever seeing this done in this forum, but I don't see why it wouldn't work while also saving height in comparison to a vertical reflux condenser.

Not necessarily ideal, but I have seen where some have turned their keg boiler on its side to save height when distilling in a basement with low ceilings.

I've seen where some have cut a hole in their ceiling and made room for the condenser. They boxed in the hole so it was finished on the interior and insulated above as well.
Quite possibly, but I have another idea also:-

I am currently thinking that it may be possible to install a 3" Y section where you have your 3" Reducing Tee.

If I can find space to cut through the Y very low down, it "might" be possible to Tee of the Y towards the valve and extend the 2 x 3" Y section tops in order to have 2 x shorter Reflux Coils angled at 45 degrees.

I am not totally against boxing off a hole in the ceiling as you also suggest, but I do have a bedroom (nobody uses) above the garage and not so sure about heat at that level.
(The whole garage ceiling is already fire boarded, so if I cut out and box off a hole, it would be a small additional fireboarding)
Last edited by Hebden on Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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