Help With Design

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Re: Help With Design

Post by bcook608 »

Chauncey wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:51 pm You should go ahead and invest in a shitload of canning jars. They will become useful for storage and experiments as well as cuts and collection. I'd go with like a dozen 500ml and a dozen 1L and 6 2L at minimum.
+1
You can never have too many different sized containers! :)
I store my low wines in corny kegs, once the keg is almost full, I know it's time for a spirit run as my small boiler is 5 gallons.
Then I store my final spirit in gallon jars/jugs or even in Cornys again if I have enough. For aging, I remove the rubber o-ring to allow a small amount of evaporation during aging.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

bcook608 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:46 pm You can never have too many different sized containers! :)
That almost belongs in Notable and Quotable... :thumbup: I lost track long ago of how many different sizes of containers I own since I got into this hobby. 100 Liter kegs , 80 L kegs , 50 L kegs, corney kegs ......oak barrels in 50 L,25L , 6L.....jars of assorted sizes.....demijohns ranging from 25L down to 5 L.....the list goes on and on.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bcook608 »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:31 am
bcook608 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:46 pm You can never have too many different sized containers! :)
That almost belongs in Notable and Quotable... :thumbup: I lost track long ago of how many different sizes of containers I own since I got into this hobby. 100 Liter kegs , 80 L kegs , 50 L kegs, corney kegs ......oak barrels in 50 L,25L , 6L.....jars of assorted sizes.....demijohns ranging from 25L down to 5 L.....the list goes on and on.
I'm quickly realizing that storage for the storage containers is probably the biggest issue I'm going to have with the hobby. Time to build my own rack house (shed) to store my containers!
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Progress has largely been on hold due to a poorly arm, but today I managed to test my water flow and return for both the RC and Shotgun. After some fiddling I now have leak free of 20 minutes test under full pressure (valves closed), followed by 20 mins of very slow flow. Leak free now. Camlocks are great for ease of connection, glad I went with these now.

So now I suppose I could do the vinegar run. I read somewhere that it should be 30% vinegar and to run for 30 mins ish. Should I run a slow RC water flow at vinegar run stage?

Can anyone suggest a link or guidance as exactly how to use the RC for when I do the sacrificial and future runs?

I vaguely get the gist of its cooling effect and the logic that one should keep the take off valve shut for a period, but how long and how do I decide when that time has come to open the take off valve? What are the signs? Is it temp related or something else too? What are the risks of keeping both vinegar run and sacrificial/future runs in reflux too long?

I am just a little confused again sorry. Any link would be appreciated, I am happy to read away thanks guys:)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by NormandieStill »

If you can run the still outside then I would start both runs with no cooling water at all. This way you get hot vapour everywhere. With the vinegar run you can do this inside if you don't mind the smell, but for the sac run it needs to be outside. Personally I would be twitchy about reducing a sac run since the goal is to get the nasties out of the still, not to smear them up and down the column. But that's an opinion not based on any actual data.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks Normandie.

Would it be OK for me to drill the blue barrel to:-
a) creature a hook in center to hang crushed shells
b) drop this kitchen stat through to observe sugar wash temp
c) insert an airlock - is there bigger versions to cope with a 150l ferment?

And is there anything else required?

Screenshot_20221030-124735_Gallery.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bunny »

Hebden wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:07 am Thanks Normandie.

Would it be OK for me to drill the blue barrel to:-
a) creature a hook in center to hang crushed shells
b) drop this kitchen stat through to observe sugar wash temp
c) insert an airlock - is there bigger versions to cope with a 150l ferment?

And is there anything else required?


Screenshot_20221030-124735_Gallery.jpg


1) If you do your vinegar run indoors and you smell vinegar, expect everything you own in that room to rust (immediately).

a) I just screwed a strong enough cup hook to the underside of the lid. Has worked so far for two years.

b) I tape my probe to the outside top of the lid and cover it with a rag to keep the moving air off it.
You could drill an undersized hole to push your probe through. It will loosed with time, however you can just drill another hole and cover
the old hole with scotch tape from both sides. (You can repair a myriad of holes with scotch 2" clear packing tape from both sides.)

c) create a "blow-off tube"
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

When doing vinegar cleaning runs, I just blast hot vapor out. You can play around with the reflux condenser if you want too, but just be aware that the still will NOT behave like it will when doing a sacrificial sugar wash or an actual alcohol run. Some people get disappointed because it's not working like they thought it should. Some have steam exiting their condensers and it makes them question what's going on. That will not happen with alcohol because alcohol has a significantly lower boiling temp.

You don't actually need to use an airlock. The risk of contamination is very very low. I've never had a sugar wash contaminate. I've never sanitized anything. I just rinse anything that is questionable. I do 50 gal sugar washes and standard size airlocks work fine. I've been tempted to install a thermowell through the side of the fermenter, but I'm afraid of hitting it with my drill & mixing paddle. When fermenting you don't really need to do anything. I occasionally pop the lid, check the temp, check the ph and what the specific gravity is.

You shouldn't need a blow-off tube with a sugar wash. That's usually done in case with excessive foaming. The only time I've had a sugar wash foam up on me is when I tried mixing it after fermentation was well under way. The existing c02 caused it to erupt with foam as I mixed it. Yeah don't do that.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Deplorable »

Hebden wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:07 am Thanks Normandie.

Would it be OK for me to drill the blue barrel to:-
a) creature a hook in center to hang crushed shells
b) drop this kitchen stat through to observe sugar wash temp
c) insert an airlock - is there bigger versions to cope with a 150l ferment?

And is there anything else required?


Screenshot_20221030-124735_Gallery.jpg
No Need to drill any holes.
a) your shell sack can hang from the side, there is enough convection going on it will do its job.
b) I use an InkBird temperature probe and the wire has a suction cup that sticks to the bottom of the lid. The wire runs between the lid and side of the barrel.
c) your ferment is creating enough CO2 to protect it from infection if you just leave the lid covering the barrel. No need to seal it and watch an air lock for signs of fermentation. Your sense of sight and taste will tell you what it's doing, and a hydrometer will tell you when it's as done as it's going to get.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:14 am When doing vinegar cleaning runs, I just blast hot vapor out. You can play around with the reflux condenser if you want too, but just be aware that the still will NOT behave like it will when doing a sacrificial sugar wash or an actual alcohol run. Some people get disappointed because it's not working like they thought it should. Some have steam exiting their condensers and it makes them question what's going on. That will not happen with alcohol because alcohol has a significantly lower boiling temp.
Well I had intended to take Normandies advice and run both vinegar and at least some of the sacrificial outside.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:14 am
You don't actually need to use an airlock. The risk of contamination is very very low. I've never had a sugar wash contaminate. I've never sanitized anything. I just rinse anything that is questionable. I do 50 gal sugar washes and standard size airlocks work fine. I've been tempted to install a thermowell through the side of the fermenter, but I'm afraid of hitting it with my drill & mixing paddle. When fermenting you don't really need to do anything. I occasionally pop the lid, check the temp, check the ph and what the specific gravity is.

You shouldn't need a blow-off tube with a sugar wash. That's usually done in case with excessive foaming. The only time I've had a sugar wash foam up on me is when I tried mixing it after fermentation was well under way. The existing c02 caused it to erupt with foam as I mixed it. Yeah don't do that.
So never stir during fermentation?
Deplorable wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:20 am No Need to drill any holes.
a) your shell sack can hang from the side, there is enough convection going on it will do its job.
b) I use an InkBird temperature probe and the wire has a suction cup that sticks to the bottom of the lid. The wire runs between the lid and side of the barrel.
c) your ferment is creating enough CO2 to protect it from infection if you just leave the lid covering the barrel. No need to seal it and watch an air lock for signs of fermentation. Your sense of sight and taste will tell you what it's doing, and a hydrometer will tell you when it's as done as it's going to get.
Well I like the idea of no holes because it preserves a good drum. If you say i'll know when it's done fermenting, I'll take your word on it and just read up on that topic ta.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 12:24 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:14 am
You don't actually need to use an airlock. The risk of contamination is very very low. I've never had a sugar wash contaminate. I've never sanitized anything. I just rinse anything that is questionable. I do 50 gal sugar washes and standard size airlocks work fine. I've been tempted to install a thermowell through the side of the fermenter, but I'm afraid of hitting it with my drill & mixing paddle. When fermenting you don't really need to do anything. I occasionally pop the lid, check the temp, check the ph and what the specific gravity is.

You shouldn't need a blow-off tube with a sugar wash. That's usually done in case with excessive foaming. The only time I've had a sugar wash foam up on me is when I tried mixing it after fermentation was well under way. The existing c02 caused it to erupt with foam as I mixed it. Yeah don't do that.
So never stir during fermentation?
There's different mindsets about mixing air during fermentation. I've done it both ways. I've read that after you pitch yeast, once the co2 builds up, the yeast goes mainly into producing ethanol. I've read that if you mix each day (oxygenating the wash) the yeast stays mostly in reproduction mode (like a big yeast starter). That's what I recall anyway. I mostly just oxygenate the wash in the beginning, pitch yeast and let it ferment. I've been meaning to do two fermentations side by side, thoroughly mix one of them every day and see if anything differs.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Twisted Brick »

Hebden wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 12:24 pm
So never stir during fermentation?
Correct. The risks (known throughout the brewing community) of doing this include contaminating the beer with outside bacteria, wild yeast, and oxygen which can lead to off-flavors or spoilage. still_stirrin actually goes a step further warning that introducing oxygen mid-ferment can produce more heads and tails (less hearts).

viewtopic.php?t=60798

There are explanations on the internet from knowledgeable brewing folks who outline the three phases (some say four) that yeast go through in the course of a fermentation. In short, once past the lag phase (yeast growth) and in active fermentation, yeast have depleted all available oxygen and (anaerobically) begin producing alcohol. Introducing oxygen at this stage disrupts this important cycle and directs the yeast to produce... more yeast, unfortunately at the expense of alcohol production.

Congrats, btw, on the progress you've made since you started. Your diligence will soon pay off.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:59 am Congrats, btw, on the progress you've made since you started. Your diligence will soon pay off.
Thanks Twisted, I'm looking forward to running it, but I tell you what, I have really enjoyed building and learning.
Next it'll be learning flavouring. Odins may be first, but artooks variations have also got to be tested out.
And I am already eager to do a corn mash run, that's going to be fun.

I do have one final niggly concern (I hope there's no more) and that is CO2 production. I read yesterday it must be vented outside as some home distiller in NZ had killed himself and coroner said it was CO2.

Seen as I intend to still in my garage and ferment in the garage, I haven't until reading this, considered it. In fact it was my intention to use my household underfloor heating, which runs in the concrete slab and under the blue drum to aid fermentation by cranking it up to yeast satisfying temperature, at least for the first run whilst I learnt the process before improving my setup, but now I'm concerned that CO2 will build up or heat will be lost opening doors.

All would be made easier if I just took salt must flows advise of building a box/tent, but initially I wanted some east run time, then I would get creative once I understood the process. However I suspect that I'm just going to have to gamble wash #1 and use quilts/sleeping bags & ratchet straps alongside a heated garage.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Twisted Brick »

Surely, C02 (and all safety) can't be taken for granted. Luckily, my garage is big enough and my keg fermenter does its thing next to a vent and have never had an issue.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I often ferment two 50 gal washes at the same time in my garage and co2 has never been an issue. I've even had 4 drums going at one time. The door gets opened often enough so even if it could be a problem, it's ventilated adequately. Honestly I really don't see a couple sugar washes causing any harm in a home or a garage.

I have a 5 lb co2 tank I use for carbonating beverages in my house. If I accidentally leave the valve open it leaks out entirely overnight. That's happened a few times and I imagine that's way more co2 than hobby fermentations expel.

I really enjoy fermenting and distilling in my heated garage. Maybe I feel a bit safer not stilling inside the house. I installed a very large three tub commercial kitchen sink I got from a buddy, 240V on demand hot water heater, I have floor drains, plenty of ceiling height and access to plenty of electricity. I even hung a spare TV & sound bar to make stilling in there more enjoyable. Summer isn't as pleasant because I don't run AC in there. I like that everything is located in the same place (tools, parts, jars, ingredients). If I make a mess in the garage the wife can't wine about it.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:39 am Surely, C02 (and all safety) can't be taken for granted. Luckily, my garage is big enough and my keg fermenter does its thing next to a vent and have never had an issue.
Of course Twisted, it definately does. I just hadn't realised the risk before reading a thread elsewhere.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:47 am I often ferment two 50 gal washes at the same time in my garage and co2 has never been an issue. I've even had 4 drums going at one time. The door gets opened often enough so even if it could be a problem, it's ventilated adequately. Honestly I really don't see a couple sugar washes causing any harm in a home or a garage.

I have a 5 lb co2 tank I use for carbonating beverages in my house. If I accidentally leave the valve open it leaks out entirely overnight. That's happened a few times and I imagine that's way more co2 than hobby fermentations expel.

I really enjoy fermenting and distilling in my heated garage. Maybe I feel a bit safer not stilling inside the house. I installed a very large three tub commercial kitchen sink I got from a buddy, 240V on demand hot water heater, I have floor drains, plenty of ceiling height and access to plenty of electricity. I even hung a spare TV & sound bar to make stilling in there more enjoyable. Summer isn't as pleasant because I don't run AC in there. I like that everything is located in the same place (tools, parts, jars, ingredients). If I make a mess in the garage the wife can't wine about it.
Salt, you are living the dream there, thanks for your anecdotal evidance there, so with CO2 being heavier than air, if I just crack the garage roller door an inch, that will blow it off at a guess. I am only ever going to run a solo 150L ferment. My main worry is setting the classic car on fire, but nowhere else to put it.

Anyhow, I have googled the risks as opposed to taking the thread I read for granted and the risks seem not to be easily life threatening, the CO2 alarms are pretty cheap and integratable with ease. Perhaps not necessary. for now I will crack a door, if I build an Auber, I may consider it..
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Just a small update to the build here, it became apparent that a digital thermometer with 0.1 degree of temp changes would be beneficial on the thermometer prior to the take off valve. So I replaced the analogue dial with a digital thermometer.
Ultimately I may build a better controller box, but I wanted to run my still.

I purchased some tapered corks thar screwed directly into my 1/2" BSP orifice so that I could just push a temp probe through. This worked well.

Probe used was a Thermopro TP-610. It's a good choice because it (probe 2) doesn't turn off if being used, and it has 0.1 degree granularity.
Also, you can easily set alarms on probe 2.

Alarms useful as once your running temperature is obvious during your eventual product runs, you can then create an alarm to notify you of a change in the run temp which I believe is a temp rise and entering tails.

From this:-
Screenshot_20221030_131303.jpg
To this:-
Screenshot_20221104-090114_Gallery.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Yesterday was cleaning run no.1 time and as Normandie, it was done outside, keeping a pungent smell out. Guidance below.
viewtopic.php?p=6835986#p6835986

Because I had fluted my shotgun output end, I ran it for 30 mins with shotgun on each way round ie 1hr total.

Screenshot_20220412-172514_Gallery.jpg

I didn't remove the copper mesh as I presumed (and I have a cast on one arm) that it may as well get a clean too. I thought that I had already cleaned all parts in the kitchen sink, but some flux/residue was evident after the clean sat within the copper mesh as pictured below, unfortunately this staining didn't leave fully, I hope the sacrificial run removes the stain, otherwise I should consider new mesh or cutting this mesh stain away:-

Screenshot_20221104_135650.jpg

Anyhow, after the vinegar run, I rinsed the whole lot off with an outside hose and a big deep pan of water which pulled much of the flux/residue out, you can see about 1/20th of a teaspoon worth of black debris in the center pan bottom (the brown pan stain is permenant), but some copper mesh stain remained.


Screenshot_20221104_134228.jpg

This is what may have forgotten to clean in kitchen sink pre-vinegar run as the stain easily rubbed off onto my fingers after the whole lot, perhaps a tea cloth would mechanically rub it off too.

Screenshot_20221104_134652.jpg

Throughout the whole vinegar run, the temp stayed at a solid 99.3c despite my changing power using my controller to test different speeds, then as I had powered down, I noticed the temp was 95+, this may be because x ammount of water or venegar had left in vapour and changed the boiling point, I do not know as I had only noticed it just after power down.

All in all it was a very easy and satisfying run. In future, make sure you don't forget to pre-clean anything.

Screenshot_20221104_134250.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by squigglefunk »

the mesh is supposed to become discolored , I wouldnt worry about it. A rinse with water is all I ever give mine.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

squigglefunk wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:36 am the mesh is supposed to become discolored , I wouldnt worry about it. A rinse with water is all I ever give mine.
The discolouration on my mesh sopports was not so much discoloured as it was a residue film/slime, I am going to remove it for sure as it easily stuck to my finger tips from those mesh sopports. I don't want that in my equipment.

Plan is to manually clean supposts and mesh before the sacrificial run to my best ability. Ethanol might do it anyhow, but this step cannot hurt and so is worth the effort.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

You're almost there. You'll want to insulate the column. I used to use a couple layers of Reflectix insulation secured using strips of Velcro and it worked ok. I later replaced that with rubber pipe insulation foam and it works so much better. It takes two pieces to wrap entirely around 3" pipe. This type of insulation is often mistaken for Polyethylene foam insulation.

I insulate my boiler by just wrapping it with a cheap cotton sleeping bag secured with a nylon strap.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks salt, I'm already prepared with insulation with some closed loop pipe lagging that should squeeze over my tri-clamp ferrules, just wanted to get the hot runs out of the way as it is rated to just 110c.
I wasn't goint to insulate the keg, I wonder, perhaps I should. How much energy is saved with insulation per 50L run I wonder, is it many kWh or does it just run better product, with me running inside with a 20c room, insulation may be less important?

Screenshot_20221105_143511.jpg

When I eventually come to stripping runs, will this setup be fine?

Screenshot_20221105_142705.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Insulating the boiler just helps with heat loss. I don't know just how significant the heat loss is, but anything helps.

That will work to strip as long as the top of the tee is capped. I'd omit the valve. You can use segments of your column as a riser. I do that to keep the boiler on the floor and so I can collect on a table or counter top.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by tjsc5f »

Hebden wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:35 am When I eventually come to stripping runs, will this setup be fine?
No need for the valve if you're configuring it to do stripping runs. Just put a cap where you would normally have the reflux condenser.
If you're leaving the valve in, you'll want to leave the reflux condenser in as well for safety. This would not be optimal for stripping, since it will slow the product rate.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

DONT leave the valve on in that configuration for stripping.......it becomes a big safety issue......you only need to fire up the still once with it in the wrong position and that will be the end of the hobby and still.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Sporacle »

:thumbup: I agree with everyone on the valve for your strip runs, personally I have a 40 inch column on my CCVM and all I do for my strips is blank the tee and unpack the column.
I figure the extra copper is beneficial and it gives some puke protection.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks all, I will remove the valve when I run the strips. I have ben searching for guidance on how to perform the stripping run, but there doesn't seem to be a novice section covering it. Has anyone got any idea of if there is a thread already covering this?

All I could find was this, but it's not detailed enough for me really.
viewtopic.php?p=6848058#p6848058

So for stripping, do I just go full power 5500w and see what comes out as steam?
Sporacle wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 12:20 pm :thumbup: I agree with everyone on the valve for your strip runs, personally I have a 40 inch column on my CCVM and all I do for my strips is blank the tee and unpack the column.
I figure the extra copper is beneficial and it gives some puke protection.
Forgive me for possibly sounding pedantic, but where are you getting "extra copper" when you have unpacked your column? This sentence confused me because I use copper mesh packing and removing packing would leave less copper contact if I un-packed my column.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Sporacle »

Hebden wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 11:30 am Forgive me for possibly sounding pedantic, but where are you getting "extra copper" when you have unpacked your column? This sentence confused me because I use copper mesh packing and removing packing would leave less copper contact if I un-packed my column.
I was looking at your proposed set up for stripping and it shows your copper column removed altogether, so in that configuration there is no copper.
I was referring to leaving your copper column in place as per your photos earlier. Removing the packing but leaving the copper column (which then becomes a riser) in place.
So the extra copper is the copper riser :thumbup:
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks Sporacle, that makes sense:)
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Re: Help With Design

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Hebden wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 11:30 am Thanks all, I will remove the valve when I run the strips. I have ben searching for guidance on how to perform the stripping run, but there doesn't seem to be a novice section covering it. Has anyone got any idea of if there is a thread already covering this?
Right, I've cracked this, can't believe how dumb I am at times. Anyhow, seems I run full whack boiler but with shotgun doing its job and just so long as distillate is not coming out too hot. Seems easy enough. I am nearly educated to beginner level now!
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