Help With Design

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Hebden
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Well further progress today with the copper mesh going in. I am getting closer and closer to completion. Purchased 100' of mesh and installed as follows.
Using a spare short length of 3" pipe as a guage to roll diameter, I softly rolled off the supply roll and into a small 3" roll. Easily cuts with scissors. Brush of loose frayed ends and keep worktop free of copper debris. (put debris copper in tomato bed, I heard it can help with disease :? )
Screenshot_20220615-165804_Gallery.jpg
It took x4 of these rolls to fill my first 500mm of column. Then a non-scientific test, I cupped the pipe and blew down it, there was a slight resistance, perhaps I should loosen these rolls up.

Screenshot_20220615-165814_Gallery.jpg
Next section was 400mm of column, this took 3 rolls and I made sure to be slightly looser, forgot to blow test, might try later.

Screenshot_20220615-165843_Gallery.jpg

Final column section was 500mm tall and would accept 4 rolls, but I ran out at 3 and just 50mm from the top due to loose packing, as said, it could accept 4 rolls.

So in all, I have 1350mm copper mesh packing, 50mm void on top and 100mm void at keg level where I reduced keg ferrule 4" to 3".

So 100' copper mesh made 10 x 3" rolls. 10' = 1 x 3" roll @ circa 125mm of column height.
(it will pack down or bulk up at that)

As if by magic:-
https://brewhaus.com/distillation-colum ... 0diameter).

It's very easy to deal with so if anyone thinks it is too tight or that there's a better way to fit, let me know please.

I have considered unrolling the rolls and just pushing one end down the tube and letting the natural push effect of unravelling and directing the mesh into the tube create a natural randomisation of the fill.
Those neat rolls may cause favourable routes for return liquids, although that will happen with any fill pattern to a degree, but it seems too uniform as it is.

ps: I could perhaps use a 500g of ceramic aquarium raschig rings and remove whatever volume copper would enable the column to be full to brim. Or maybe 1kg? Yes om only 50mm from my max available 1400mm but perhaps a nearer 50/50 split helps. The aquarium rings are pretty cheap.

Screenshot_20220615-174455_Gallery.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by NormandieStill »

Before you start chasing the optimum packing arrangement, you should perhaps run the thing a few times to see if you need to! ;-)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

NormandieStill wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:43 am Before you start chasing the optimum packing arrangement, you should perhaps run the thing a few times to see if you need to! ;-)
Wise words Normandie:)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:22 am Well further progress today with the copper mesh going in. I am getting closer and closer to completion. Purchased 100' of mesh and installed as follows.
Using a spare short length of 3" pipe as a guage to roll diameter, I softly rolled off the supply roll and into a small 3" roll. Easily cuts with scissors. Brush of loose frayed ends and keep worktop free of copper debris. (put debris copper in tomato bed, I heard it can help with disease :? )

Screenshot_20220615-165804_Gallery.jpg

It took x4 of these rolls to fill my first 500mm of column. Then a non-scientific test, I cupped the pipe and blew down it, there was a slight resistance, perhaps I should loosen these rolls up.


Screenshot_20220615-165814_Gallery.jpg

Next section was 400mm of column, this took 3 rolls and I made sure to be slightly looser, forgot to blow test, might try later.


Screenshot_20220615-165843_Gallery.jpg


Final column section was 500mm tall and would accept 4 rolls, but I ran out at 3 and just 50mm from the top due to loose packing, as said, it could accept 4 rolls.

So in all, I have 1350mm copper mesh packing, 50mm void on top and 100mm void at keg level where I reduced keg ferrule 4" to 3".

So 100' copper mesh made 10 x 3" rolls. 10' = 1 x 3" roll @ circa 125mm of column height.
(it will pack down or bulk up at that)

As if by magic:-
https://brewhaus.com/distillation-colum ... 0diameter).

It's very easy to deal with so if anyone thinks it is too tight or that there's a better way to fit, let me know please.

I have considered unrolling the rolls and just pushing one end down the tube and letting the natural push effect of unravelling and directing the mesh into the tube create a natural randomisation of the fill.
Those neat rolls may cause favourable routes for return liquids, although that will happen with any fill pattern to a degree, but it seems too uniform as it is.

ps: I could perhaps use a 500g of ceramic aquarium raschig rings and remove whatever volume copper would enable the column to be full to brim. Or maybe 1kg? Yes om only 50mm from my max available 1400mm but perhaps a nearer 50/50 split helps. The aquarium rings are pretty cheap.


Screenshot_20220615-174455_Gallery.jpg
That aquarium ceramic packing is not a good choice, especially if they are approx 1/2" in size. I've tried it multiple times in my 3" column and it was literally the WORST packing I have ever tried. I was only able to barely reach 95% ABV at a retardedly low power and takeoff rate otherwise it would flood every single time. Those rings would have to be very small or shattered into pieces in order to work. That is precisely why properly sized Lava Rock is superior. Lava works better than ceramic rings, copper mesh and stainless scrubbers too. Lava Rock pumps out 97% ABV consistently at 3.4 - 3.7 lph depending on your power input & takeoff setting.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:41 am Lava Rock pumps out 97% ABV consistently at 3.4 - 3.7 lph depending on your power input & takeoff setting.
That's interesting, I'll not be changing from mesh now of course, as being a yorkshire man, we need to get our monies worth.
But what do you mean by 3.4-3.7 Iph please?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:25 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:41 am Lava Rock pumps out 97% ABV consistently at 3.4 - 3.7 lph depending on your power input & takeoff setting.
That's interesting, I'll not be changing from mesh now of course, as being a yorkshire man, we need to get our monies worth.
But what do you mean by 3.4-3.7 Iph please?
A takeoff rate of 3.4 to 3.7 liters per hour of 97% ABV product with my 3" column. The only time I've heard of a better takeoff rate than that is with SPP. I'm a bit skeptical about that, but I don't want to derail. The highest ABV I was ever able to get was 95%. Imagine my surprise when I checked the ABV with lava and it always says 97%. You just don't get any better than that. I know most people say, "I'm happy if I can get near 95%". That's a personal choice I guess. I still use a few rolls of copper, but the rest is lava.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Well that is indeed amazing rate and percentage too. Within my research I have read published articles saying how it is impossible for the home distiller to achieve 96%, but 95% being manageable.
The reasoning being the need for a 40 plate tall column (memory guesswork). So it's truly an achievement. Obviously your not on a 50l barrel keg to be taking off at that rate, how big is your keg and power input BTW Salt?

I don't think I'll ever need to upside, I'm just doing this as a hobby but it's good to know how things work.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:48 am Well that is indeed amazing rate and percentage too. Within my research I have read published articles saying how it is impossible for the home distiller to achieve 96%, but 95% being manageable.
The reasoning being the need for a 40 plate tall column (memory guesswork). So it's truly an achievement. Obviously your not on a 50l barrel keg to be taking off at that rate, how big is your keg and power input BTW Salt?

I don't think I'll ever need to upside, I'm just doing this as a hobby but it's good to know how things work.
I read that 97.2% is the max, but it would require an extremely expensive hydrometer to differentiate 97% and 97.2%, but who knows. All I know is this hydrometer has never read much over 95% until I switched to lava rock. It's not temp because product comes off at 60F. I tested with a different brand hydrometer and it reads the same.

Boiler is a 15.5 gal keg for spirit runs. Lately I"ve been running at 50% power 2750W. I choose a power setting during hearts, let it stabilize, start taking off, measuring the takeoff rate once it's coming out steady, test the ABV (dilute/smell/taste) and make notes. I'll open the valve a bit more, measure the takeoff rate after a while, test ABV and make notes (dilute/smell/taste). I keep stepping up the takeoff rate until I see the ABV starting to drop and/or if the taste is off. If I try a different power setting then I have to do all this testing again. For each power setting I test different takeoff rates. Sometimes when I do a LOT of testing, I'll switch off power, dump a good bit back down through the top of the column (vent hole), stabilize and continue testing.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bluefish_dist »

Hebden wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:48 am Well that is indeed amazing rate and percentage too. Within my research I have read published articles saying how it is impossible for the home distiller to achieve 96%, but 95% being manageable.
The reasoning being the need for a 40 plate tall column (memory guesswork). So it's truly an achievement. Obviously your not on a 50l barrel keg to be taking off at that rate, how big is your keg and power input BTW Salt?

I don't think I'll ever need to upside, I'm just doing this as a hobby but it's good to know how things work.
From what Odin has posted and other reading, 15 plates in the minimum to hit azeo. Beyond 40 plates no real improvement. I was able to hit slightly over 95% (190.5p) with 8 ft of packed column (20ish plates). My guess is most home distillers do not own the equipment to measure high proof accurately enough to tell if they are 189.5 or 190.5. In practice it’s a huge difference between those two.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by shadylane »

bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:41 pm .... My guess is most home distillers do not own the equipment to measure high proof accurately enough to tell if they are 189.5 or 190.5. In practice it’s a huge difference between those two.
I'm a homedistiller and what you said sounds right. :ewink:
I figure when considering bragging rights about quality, ABV is far from the most important. :thumbup:
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:13 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:41 pm .... My guess is most home distillers do not own the equipment to measure high proof accurately enough to tell if they are 189.5 or 190.5. In practice it’s a huge difference between those two.
I figure when considering bragging rights about quality, ABV is far from the most important. :thumbup:
Like what?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by shadylane »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:05 pm
shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:13 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:41 pm .... My guess is most home distillers do not own the equipment to measure high proof accurately enough to tell if they are 189.5 or 190.5. In practice it’s a huge difference between those two.
I figure when considering bragging rights about quality, ABV is far from the most important. :thumbup:
Like what?
That's an easy question to answer due to the different requirements.
For fuel alcohol, I'd go for the highest ABV VS energy input.
For drinking, I'd make the cleanest alcohol possible after being diluted to drinking proof. :lol:
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Re: Help With Design

Post by shadylane »

Just my 2 cents worth and I'm not completely sure about it.
I think unrolling and then repacking the copper mesh will work better.
Screenshot_20220615-165814_Gallery.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:20 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:05 pm
shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:13 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:41 pm .... My guess is most home distillers do not own the equipment to measure high proof accurately enough to tell if they are 189.5 or 190.5. In practice it’s a huge difference between those two.
I figure when considering bragging rights about quality, ABV is far from the most important. :thumbup:
Like what?
That's an easy question to answer due to the different requirements.
For fuel alcohol, I'd go for the highest ABV VS energy input.
For drinking, I'd make the cleanest alcohol possible after being diluted to drinking proof. :lol:
Are you referring to cuts? If not, say what you mean and elaborate at least a little bit so people know what you're saying. It's almost like pulling teeth. Make a claim and back it up right?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:34 pm Just my 2 cents worth and I'm not completely sure about it.
I think unrolling and then repacking the copper mesh will work better.

Screenshot_20220615-165814_Gallery.jpg
I agree with that and I'll elaborate. Copper mesh with use tends to get loose, crinkle and seems to need more structure or uniformity over time (needing unrolled and re-rolled). That's why I only use as much or it as I feel required and use structured packing as my primary. Structured packing is nearly infinitely reusable and without similar maintenance. Meaning that I find some residual crumbs of lava rock in the boiler after each run, but lava rock/structured packing does not require anything other than a rinse to be reusable where copper mesh does (in my opinion).
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Re: Help With Design

Post by shadylane »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:05 pm
shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:20 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:05 pm
shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:13 pm
I figure when considering bragging rights about quality, ABV is far from the most important. :thumbup:
Like what?
That's an easy question to answer due to the different requirements.
For fuel alcohol, I'd go for the highest ABV VS energy input.
For drinking, I'd make the cleanest alcohol possible after being diluted to drinking proof. :lol:
Are you referring to cuts? If not, say what you mean and elaborate at least a little bit so people know what you're saying. It's almost like pulling teeth. Make a claim and back it up right?
I'm confused by your question.
Are you trying to pick my brain for info or bust my balls. :lol:
If you want to pick my brain, please don't mention pulling teeth.
I have 2 balls, once upon a time 32 teeth and fewer brain cells.
The thought of pulling something makes me nervous. :shock:

First off ABV isn't the same as quality.
Anything out of a column has to be diluted before drinking.
When diluted to drinking proof all the mistakes made earlier become apparent.
If you want quality neutral there's much more than ABV or even making cuts.
Don't get me wrong. Cuts are important and can even make up for some of the failures from the beginning of the process. Equipment is also important; the right tools make for easier and faster success.
But when it comes down to it, the tricks of the trade are what makes for bragging rights. :ewink:
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:34 pm Just my 2 cents worth and I'm not completely sure about it.
I think unrolling and then repacking the copper mesh will work better.
Differing opinions
Everybody I know uses it rolled just like in the photo, that's how Ive always used mine to.
Never had any problem reaching 95% , seems to work just fine in rolls.
Having said that Ive never tried it the other way.
Have you tried both ways ?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by bluefish_dist »

shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:13 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:41 pm .... My guess is most home distillers do not own the equipment to measure high proof accurately enough to tell if they are 189.5 or 190.5. In practice it’s a huge difference between those two.
I'm a homedistiller and what you said sounds right. :ewink:
I figure when considering bragging rights about quality, ABV is far from the most important. :thumbup:
Let me clarify the huge difference, it’s on the equipment side. Those last few % of proof are hard to get out of your still. Even with 20 plates of packing I never hit true azeo. Adding 2 ft of packing or 6 plates only added .2 -.3 proof.
Does it matter to the end user, probably not. As a commercial distiller it did matter for keeping to the legal definition of vodka, but could you taste the difference between 189 something and 190+, no.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by shadylane »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:47 am
shadylane wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:34 pm Just my 2 cents worth and I'm not completely sure about it.
I think unrolling and then repacking the copper mesh will work better.
Differing opinions
Everybody I know uses it rolled just like in the photo, that's how Ive always used mine to.
Never had any problem reaching 95% , seems to work just fine in rolls.
Having said that Ive never tried it the other way.
Have you tried both ways ?
Yes, I've given both ways a try.
If the mesh is unrolled, wadded up and stuffed it into the column I think it works better.
Copper mesh like in the picture would be more expensive per inch than even SSP and much more prone to flooding. As to 95% that depends on the take off rate. For some reason folks get hung up about ABV and forget columns are meant to distill alcohol, and not at a drip...drip....drip rate.
Azeo is what some folks pull during the forshots cut and then brag about high proof.
I'm making drink alcohol, max proof isn't a requirement for my needs. :ewink:
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Re: Help With Design

Post by NormandieStill »

Just a data point, I have 1m of packed 2" column with rolled stainless mesh (with a single roll of copper mesh at the bottom). I strip low wines to 30%, then add water to take them down to around 20% (unmeasured, just a guestimate based on volume). I can pull 95% at around 750ml / hour and despite not managing 100% reflux (coil issues) I get very clean hearts from a wheat + yellow label wash and some interesting jars just before and after. If I push my column harder to take-off faster, I get smearing of tails before the proof starts to drop noticeably. I've not done many runs with the column and there's still some dialling in to be done, but that's my experience so far.

A couple of litres of clean 95% keeps us in gin and experimental liqueurs for quite some time. The time and investment required to chase higher proof just isn't interesting. I would like to solve the coil issue to see if I can't get slightly better heads compression though.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

shadylane wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:45 am As to 95% that depends on the take off rate. For some reason folks get hung up about ABV and forget columns are meant to distill alcohol, and not at a drip...drip....drip rate.
Clean 95% at 3 L an hour aint drip drip drip....shady.....thats why some of us have been running 3 inch reflux stills for ages. I dont run a 4 plate column that fast for brown spirit.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Guys, this heating element of mine doesn't come with instructions or an obvious earth.
I'm confident I can't go wrong installing live a d neutral as there's simply 2 sides to the elements, but what about earth/ground wire.

Is that central bolt to hold an earth down with a ring connector?
(I unscrewed it, it seems to have no use)

Screenshot_20220617-163538_Gallery.jpg
This was the element ordered
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I've never used that type of element and I have no clue what kind of electric you have in your area, but there's a recent topic that asked about that kind of element.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

Yes that screw is the Earth or Ground terminal .

Those elements consist of 3 single elements. As supplied , the three elements a fitted with straps that places all three in parallel . If one wanted , you could remove the straps on one side and connect each to switch . You would have three ranges of heat .
Iffn you have three phase , you can connect each element to a different phase using a DSPR1 and three SSRDA40s
They are a very versatile element .
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Re: Help With Design

Post by LWTCS »

Can use a body ground or a grounding lug on your element housing as seen with a typical single phase element too.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks again all, element is wired up now all on one phase yummy. We only have single phase at my home and I am indeed keen to get it running before venturing into different elements on different phases, but I may come back to it in future if I ever need to, but currently at my novice level, I will just be happy controlling the whole element with the StillDaragon.EU controller

Is there anyone out there who can confirm the wiring of the controller? I have googled it but not sure I trust what I am reading, does anyone have a working knowledge?
I am so unsure and in UK, we have never used this coloured wiring. Which of Black, Green & White is Live, Neutral & Earth please?

Still Dragon Wiring.jpg
EDIT:
I think I may have found the answer if anyone else is looking, I am not the first to fall fould of Still Dragons poor instructions, if I had pdf editing software I would re-do it myself.
https://www.stilldragon.org/discussion/ ... %20%20Grey
https://www.stilldragon.org/uploads/man ... 131020.pdf

So I guess, if it blows, it blows:
Green = Earth/Ground
White = Neutral/Common
Black = Live/Hot
(will report back later)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

Hedben
In UK ( same as Australia)

Neutral is Blue
Live (phase) is Brown
Earth is green/yellow stripe .

Bear in mind that that still dragon wiring diagram is for US 115v …..and you will be using 230v

So to convert that Still dragon pic to UK colour codes

White (Neutral) = Blue
Black (Live). = Brown
Green (Ground) =Green/yellow stripe
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Re: Help With Design

Post by LWTCS »

Yummyrum wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:32 pm Hedben
In UK ( same as Australia)

Neutral is Blue
Live (phase) is Brown
Earth is green/yellow stripe .

Bear in mind that that still dragon wiring diagram is for US 115v …..and you will be using 230v

So to convert that Still dragon pic to UK colour codes

White (Neutral) = Blue
Black (Live). = Brown
Green (Ground) =Green/yellow stripe
SD diagram is for single phase 208v thru 250v yummy.
That white wire is confusing. It should have a Black or Red marker on it.

SD pots (500k) have like zero resolution on 115/120 volts.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

LWTCS wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:12 pm

SD diagram is for single phase 208v thru 250v yummy.
That white wire is confusing. It should have a Black or Red marker on it.

SD pots (500k) have like zero resolution on 115/120 volts.
Yes , agree with 500k pot its a nominal 220v design .
Was just saying that with the colours used , it’s US 115/120v single phase wiring code that is used in the pics .

Perhaps SD could have two wiring setups , one as shown but with a 250k pot and a rewire of the 500k version with bi-phase Red and black and a European/ Australasian version with Brown and Blue .
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Well it has been a mass delay in the distillery build after deciding and failing to sell our house. Held off so as not to have a brew on when viewings happen, but seems nobody wants our place, so I am going to continue.

Here's tonights update for those that care, I'm hoping this thread helps others out in the future hence posting images of lots of useful stuff in my eyes. Wiring being one thing, particularly to UK peeps.
Screenshot_20221002_234724.jpg
Screenshot_20221002_234837.jpg
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