Help With Design

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Salt Must Flow
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden, it's looking real good! It's been a while since you've given an update. What overall design have you decided on for a reflux column? Just know that your reflux condenser doesn't have to be straight up & down if you're doing a VM still.

On the left is a 3" short Tee and a 3" 45 elbow. On the right is just a 90 elbow. Notice the height reduction using that short tee. By the time you attach a reflux condenser, the 45 elbow set at an angle, the condenser would be at the same height at the 90 elbow. It only has to be angled enough for liquid to run back down the column. I don't know of any other fitting that would give you this amount of height reduction.

Short Tee - Reflux Condenser.jpg


If you're going with a CCVM then you may be stuck with a vertical reflux condenser unless you get creative.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Hi Salt,

I hope your ok and your brews are coming along nuicely still. Would you mind me referring to one of your earlier posts shown in the link below.
viewtopic.php?p=7707558#p7707558

Can I ask about your coil setup:-

a) Is the blanking plate on which your pipework coil and tails are connected used simply to give strength to the coil?
b) Do you actually tri-clamp this coil on when running and control with water flow?
c) Or do you raise and lower your coil without clamping as the run requires?

Furthermore:-
a) You know your 9" reflux coil, does that immediately hang into the take off tee and partially into the column below take off tee?
b) Or do you need some length of column above the take off tee in order to stop the reflux coil going too for into the column below the tee?

Screenshot_20220610-184640_Gallery.jpg

EDIT: Thanks for your above post Salt, it is nice to hear from you and yes its been ages, welder kept fobbing me off, but worth the wait as he did a lovely job.
I have considered the 45d bend mentioned before by you, I would prefer vertical if I could make it.

What I do know is that my keg has a 4" to 3" reducer, that's 100mm tall. So if the column fitted was 1400mm, I would have the full 20x diameter. That in turn leaves just 400mm of Reflux Coil.
However with me not fully understanding the RC usage and its position ie above or in the tee, I am unable to work it out.

If I am lowering say 175mm of RC into the tee as in "B" in my above diagram, then I could lift it out 175mm also and there would be 50mm with which I could bring the coils out the top.

If it should be designed as in "A", then I either shorten the 1500mm column below the tee or I take your advice to use a 45 degree bend.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:47 am Hi Salt,

I hope your ok and your brews are coming along nuicely still. Would you mind me referring to one of your earlier posts shown in the link below.
viewtopic.php?p=7707558#p7707558

Can I ask about your coil setup:-

a) Is the blanking plate on which your pipework coil and tails are connected used simply to give strength to the coil?
b) Do you actually tri-clamp this coil on when running and control with water flow?
c) Or do you raise and lower your coil without clamping as the run requires?

Furthermore:-
a) You know your 9" reflux coil, does that immediately hang into the take off tee and partially into the column below take off tee?
b) Or do you need some length of column above the take off tee in order to stop the reflux coil going too for into the column below the tee?


Screenshot_20220610-184640_Gallery.jpg


EDIT: Thanks for your above post Salt, it is nice to hear from you and yes its been ages, welder kept fobbing me off, but worth the wait as he did a lovely job.
I have considered the 45d bend mentioned before by you, I would prefer vertical if I could make it.

What I do know is that my keg has a 4" to 3" reducer, that's 100mm tall. So if the column fitted was 1400mm, I would have the full 20x diameter. That in turn leaves just 400mm of Reflux Coil.
However with me not fully understanding the RC usage and its position ie above or in the tee, I am unable to work it out.

If I am lowering say 175mm of RC into the tee as in "B" in my above diagram, then I could lift it out 175mm also and there would be 50mm with which I could bring the coils out the top.

If it should be designed as in "A", then I either shorten the 1500mm column below the tee or I take your advice to use a 45 degree bend.
Yes I used those stainless compression fitting just to firmly attach the copper tubing through the Tri-Clamp cap (which is also drilled/vented). I drilled through the compression fittings so that the copper tubing could pass through otherwise it couldn't. Yes the reflux condenser is clamped into place and I've rarely ever had to remove it.

I have a VM (Vapor Management still) like shown below. All I have to do is open & close that gate valve to allow vapor to exit. The only thing VM stills have to adjust for is power in the boiler, enough water flow to the reflux condenser so that vapor doesn't escape and how much to open the gave valve which determines your takeoff rate (and reflux ratio). VM stills are not sensitive to fluctuations in water temp & flow/pressure. Of course there's water going to the product condenser too which only needs enough water to condense the exiting vapor and ideally exits at 60F so no temp correction is needed to test the ABV. There's a thermowell in the reducer on the vapor takeoff.

It appears that you are looking at a CCVM. With that kind of still you either physically raise/lower the reflux condenser (not flow/pressure sensitive) or adjust the water flow to the reflux condenser to allow vapor to escape (which is flow/pressure sensitive). I'll tell you right up front that I'm bias towards VM because they're so damn convenient to operate, they just run themselves. Once you see the product start to slow down you know tails are on its way. I don't like the thought of manually raising/lowering the reflux condenser up on a ladder and wedging something in place to hold it when all that's needed is a gate valve to make operation a real pleasure. There are LM (Liquid Management) designs that are really simple, but experts have said it sucked in comparison to VM.

This is exactly how I made mine. The thought was that using 2" short tee might induce a slight positive pressure and might be able to achieve a higher takeoff rate in comparison to using a 3" tee. Don't know, but it functions great. IF you did go with a VM still, you could shrink the head height by using that short tee like I showed earlier which would allow you to have that much taller of a column.
FINAL VM 2 in Tee.jpg
VM Head 02.jpg


Here's how it could be done using a 3" Short Tee instead of a 2". The reflux condenser remains fixed. Vapor rises up the column, hits the reflux condenser, the reflux continuously rains down onto the packing and this cycle continues throughout the entire run. All you need to do is crack open the gate valve to let vapor slip out at whatever rate you want. It's really just that simple.
VM 3 in Example.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:47 am I have a VM (Vapor Management still) like shown below. All I have to do is open & close that gate valve to allow vapor to exit. The only thing VM stills have to adjust for is power in the boiler, enough water flow to the reflux condenser so that vapor doesn't escape and how much to open the gave valve which determines your takeoff rate (and reflux ratio). VM stills are not sensitive to fluctuations in water temp & flow/pressure. Of course there's water going to the product condenser too which only needs enough water to condense the exiting vapor and ideally exits at 60F so no temp correction is needed to test the ABV. There's a thermowell in the reducer on the vapor takeoff.
That little thermowell is a clever little device, I don't think I would have spotted it if you hadn't pointed it out. I was not intending to install one either as I hadn't realised the importance of 60F, it was my intention to just feel the product condenser and if it was warm at the top, increase water flow.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:47 am It appears that you are looking at a CCVM. With that kind of still you either physically raise/lower the reflux condenser (not flow/pressure sensitive) or adjust the water flow to the reflux condenser to allow vapor to escape (which is flow/pressure sensitive). I'll tell you right up front that I'm bias towards VM because they're so damn convenient to operate, they just run themselves. Once you see the product start to slow down you know tails are on its way. I don't like the thought of manually raising/lowering the reflux condenser up on a ladder and wedging something in place to hold it when all that's needed is a gate valve to make operation a real pleasure. There are LM (Liquid Management) designs that are really simple, but experts have said it sucked in comparison to VM.
Haha, well it may appear that way Salt and I wish I was so clever but it seems I am indeed confused once again (did I say reading wasn't my strong point). The fact was that I was sincerely under the impression that I "must" raise and lower the reflux coil to alter the take off rates in combination with the product valve use.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:47 am Here's how it could be done using a 3" Short Tee instead of a 2". The reflux condenser remains fixed. Vapor rises up the column, hits the reflux condenser, the reflux continuously rains down onto the packing and this cycle continues throughout the entire run. All you need to do is crack open the gate valve to let vapor slip out at whatever rate you want. It's really just that simple.
In fact you have just educated me with some fantastic news. If I can build a reflux coil that is stationery clamped above the top of the tee, then all my worries are gone.
And you are telling me it is a perfectly simple system to operate, which great for a newbie like me then:)

This stationery reflux means below tee column length can be 1500mm which is 20x my 75mm column. Perfecto! And then, I still have 400mm remaining to fit the stationery reflux coil.
And seen as you say 9" double coil is enough, I am actually going to be able to produce the vertical setup without comprimise.

You have just made my evening with this snippet of information, I wish I could buy you a beer right now sir.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:47 am This is exactly how I made mine. The thought was that using 2" short tee might induce a slight positive pressure and might be able to achieve a higher takeoff rate in comparison to using a 3" tee. Don't know, but it functions great. IF you did go with a VM still, you could shrink the head height by using that short tee like I showed earlier which would allow you to have that much taller of a column.
Firstly I have to say that I love the enginuity of your thought process in attempting to create a slight positive pressure, I can see the thought process but cannot convince myself in either direction that it would not be two sides of a square. However it may give some form of rapid movement into the 3" reflux, I just don't know.

I have in fact shortened my normal size 3" tee, on the vertical openings. I had the welder cut the vertical tee tubes much shorter than the take-off section in order to create the shortest possible 3" tee to give me more height. I left the horizontal section of tee as standard so that I could fit the thermomoeter in. I have attached an image, but my 3" tee height is now 150mm (reduced from 270mm in height without ferrules). This may have been my best move yet.

Screenshot_20220610-212438_Gallery.jpg
Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:47 am Here's how it could be done using a 3" Short Tee instead of a 2". The reflux condenser remains fixed. Vapor rises up the column, hits the reflux condenser, the reflux continuously rains down onto the packing and this cycle continues throughout the entire run. All you need to do is crack open the gate valve to let vapor slip out at whatever rate you want. It's really just that simple.
Well Salt, I hate to say it but I must copy cat that VM idea and run exactly as the above describes. At least until I have some experience behind me and I have learnt enough to maybe want to expand my knowledge either into alternate methods or drinks.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Bushman »

I hate to say it but I must copy cat that VM idea and run exactly as the above describes. At least until I have some experience behind me and I have learnt enough to maybe want to expand my knowledge either into alternate methods or drinks.
Everything on this site is meant to help others so copy away.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Haha, well it may appear that way Salt and I wish I was so clever but it seems I am indeed confused once again (did I say reading wasn't my strong point). The fact was that I was sincerely under the impression that I "must" raise and lower the reflux coil to alter the take off rates in combination with the product valve use.
Yeah there's no need to fidget with the reflux condenser as long as you have a gate valve. Those CCVM stills you see very often these days raise/lower the reflux coil in order to let vapor slip past and into the product condenser. VM is a real pleasure to operate and it's simple to have precise & repeatable control with that valve.

I didn't have to use those compression fittings to secure the reflux condenser. I could have just soldered the copper tubing into those holes. At the time I was thinking mechanically and it didn't occur to solder them.
That little thermowell is a clever little device, I don't think I would have spotted it if you hadn't pointed it out. I was not intending to install one either as I hadn't realised the importance of 60F, it was my intention to just feel the product condenser and if it was warm at the top, increase water flow.
Which thermowell? The one in the vapor takeoff? I have one in the vapor takeoff, one on the reflux condenser and one on my shotgun condenser. All you really need is one in the vapor takeoff though. I use the other ones just to have more convenient control of the water temp/flow. You product condenser or shotgun condenser won't need much flow at all. Barely a trickle and the product WILL be 60F if you're on well water/city water.

I hope you understand what using that 3" short tee and a 3" 45 elbow would do. It will allow you to tilt your reflux condenser at a very shallow angle, saving maybe 7" - 7.7" and give you that much more height to your column. Clearly you do not need to do anything like that, but sometimes every little bit helps. If you use a really efficient packing like properly sized Lava Rock, it will get you even better performance with a shorter column, but you can technically run a bit faster with a taller column.

Yes copy away! You'll love it when it's completed. I look forward to seeing it when it's all completed, up and running :thumbup:
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:15 pm I didn't have to use those compression fittings to secure the reflux condenser. I could have just soldered the copper tubing into those holes. At the time I was thinking mechanically and it didn't occur to solder them.
Going of your idea and using my fittings, I have space to implement the following:-

I will drill the 3" reflux coil cap and solder in 2 x 1/2" FBSP to F15mm reducers from above, then on the underside, I will solder 2 x M15mm to F8mm reducers for the coils to attach on the underside. That total above cap height will be 140mm, I am aiming for 225mm of double wound coil below cap. This will leave me ~40mm above the tap which will be at ceiling height.
I have checked how accessible ceiling height is and I just need one step to reach the tap, I'll use a piece of spare 8" x 6" timber I already have which can be kicked about at will, so reach is not a problem.

Screenshot_20220611-115007_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20220611-114936_Gallery.jpg

Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:15 pm I hope you understand what using that 3" short tee and a 3" 45 elbow would do. It will allow you to tilt your reflux condenser at a very shallow angle, saving maybe 7" - 7.7" and give you that much more height to your column. Clearly you do not need to do anything like that, but sometimes every little bit helps. If you use a really efficient packing like properly sized Lava Rock, it will get you even better performance with a shorter column, but you can technically run a bit faster with a taller column.

Yes copy away! You'll love it when it's completed. I look forward to seeing it when it's all completed, up and running :thumbup:
Yes Salt, I understood this 45d bend logik and until you pointed it out, I didn't know that it would be appropriate to install this was although I had considered it. Also, if you only need fall of any kind to allow drops to return, you could use 2 x 45d bends in such a way that they were aligned "not" to make a 90d bend, this even softer double bend could reduce even further the height restriction. However having never built a coil I am unsure how pliable they are after coiled.
It could be the case that the inner coil alone would be able to be placed through the additional bend and the outer coil would need to be wound only as far as the additional bend. I am sure yourself and others with experience will already know the answers and if it is even feasible.

I think I know your going to tell me my gate valve is too large at 1&1/4", it was the only one available at cheap money when I purchased it. Welder had forgotten it yesterday.

Screenshot_20220611-112937_Gallery.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I pinched and crimped one end of the copper tubing, unrolled it carefully and filled it with table salt using a little funnel. That keeps it from kinking and helps prevent flattening. I recall having to get on the roof of my house to make this easier. I followed this guide, but simplified it somewhat. I made a simple jig out of 2x4s screwed together, I cut holes (hole saw) for the mandrel to slide into and clamped it in a vice. I just used vice grips as a crank handle. Proper sizing of the mandrel is important so that the coil isn't too big to fit or too small and the tubing tends to flatten. I believe I used 3/4" steel pipe. Instead of using the shown eyelets to secure the copper tubing to the mandrel, I just used a couple cheap, stainless hose clamps. After wrapping the first coil I wrapped it with cardboard then wrapped the 2nd coil. Removing the cardboard was a bitch. I had to soak it in water and pressure wash it to blast it out. Take your time. Some use wire or rope to achieve even spacing with the coil, but you can do a great job without that. After the job is done, connect the tubing to your home water pressure (outside ideally) and after a matter of hours, the salt will dissolve and be blasted out.

When using the still for the first few times you may find it beneficial to lightly tuck some stainless scrubber between the gaps and inside the core to make it condense more effectively. I did and forgot about it. One day I'll try removing it and confirm if it actually needed it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

I don't see that 1-1/4" valve being an issue at all.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks Salt, I've been a busy boy this afternoon, but I'd call this a success. I calculated I'd need 6.8m copper coil but the played it safe and filled all 10m with salt. My whole coil is 5.2m (that's what will be soldered up). Good or bad, that's what I've got now mate.

Once this is attacked to the cap, I'll have an exact reflux coil height. And the the final task of making the column sections. As you've alluded to earlier, I might make 3 x ~500mm pieces instead of 2 x 750mm for easy storage.

I feel like I'm getting somewhere now:)

EDIT: To help others reading in future, my technique was to use 16" of 22mm copper pipe to wrap the inner core around, i opted for 16 full coils. Then I spaced by pulling, pushing and turning a flat screwdriver butween coils until happy.
Once happy with inner coil spacing, I slid over a section of scaffolding pipe cut circa 24" long, this goes over the 1st tail, the inner core and the 22mm pipe, push all way down to the base/return pipe and gently easy the coil over the scaffolding, slowly get the coils going onto scaffolding and don't worry about spacing, at this stage I had 1" coil spacing, I knew it'd come back later. Again, circa 16 coils, think I did 17 and eventually 18 because at the final stages, you need to not have both tails in each others way, at this stage it's easier to fiddle outer coil another 1/2 turn and compress coil spacing a touch.

Also, to help with leverage in wrapping 8mm copper tube around a 22mm copper pipe "tightly", I used a 10" offcut of 22mm pipe, slid it over the 8mm coil from the far end and right up tight to the area I was coiling. This gives leverage and great strength (to her indoors) and you get a tight coil.

(Note you need a willing helper for the whole process)


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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Holy smokes, that turned out great! And fast too. Hebden isn't screwing around at all.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Haha, yep it was surprising to me also, first take went perfectly well and scrap materials were fortunate enough to fit perfectly:)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Good work Hebdon....this whole project seems to be comming along nicely.....your perseverance is paying off.
Hopefully this thread will enchorage a few more newbs to build.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Getting the tails lined up neatly on the reflux coil was a difficult task. Thankfully I had left the salt in when I realised. Also careful consideration needs to be given to the cap hole positions and great care taking to ensure that when the reflux coil tails go through the cap, the coil itself will still be central to the column.
I nearly made the mistake of drilling the cap with two perfectly equidistant holes only for my coil with its offset tails to be in the wrong position.
So after much fiddling coil tales and head scratching, I've decided to drill the cap where it suits the tails and the final hanging position of the coil should be central to the column.

Anyway, salt cleared after almost 90 minutes and tails are now guy to length (afterwards). I'll hopefully drill cap tomorrow and the fitting coil to cap will be the real moment of truth, success or failure.

Is a 16mm vent cap safety hole an ok size guys?

Screenshot_20220612-154911_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20220612-204222_Gallery.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Well jobs done, I ended up with 1520mm of column so that's good.
I had no 3" blanks leftover to water test the column soldering unfortunately.

Should I be putting it all in a citric acid bath now?
Should I clean the shotgun and column inner surfaces with something too?

ps I know it's put together wrong, just wanted to see finished height.

Screenshot_20220613-205932_Gallery.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Forgot to add piccie of crazy length piece after shotgun.

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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

Very nice Hebden :thumbup:

16mm vent will be absolutely fine .
I hear you about drilling holes for tails. Being all nice and equidistant appeases the soul , but sometimes you just have to go with how it is .

There are lots of topics about still cleaning .Me personally would give it a soak and physically clean every surface .
If you can’t physically clean every surface , then you will need to revert to the vinegar steam method .

Regardless , you should do a a sacrificial alcohol run through it . If not to clean any residue , it will season the fresh copper reducing the Metallic taste you can get on a virgin copper still .
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

EXCELLENT job! :clap: Don't sweat the spacing. The perfect condenser and getting it installed is what's important.

It's been a while and I don't recall ... do you have a specific controller in mind?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:22 pm There are lots of topics about still cleaning .Me personally would give it a soak and physically clean every surface .
If you can’t physically clean every surface , then you will need to revert to the vinegar steam method .
Thanks Yummy, I shall go and research this topic, more thoroughly, the hardest to reach part it the inside of shotgun tubes, very long and very narrow.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:14 pm EXCELLENT job! :clap: Don't sweat the spacing. The perfect condenser and getting it installed is what's important.

It's been a while and I don't recall ... do you have a specific controller in mind?
Thanks Salt, yes I have the StillDragon controller kit on th ekitchen worktop, and I have ordered a 32A plug so I can easily store the whole kit should I need to.
https://www.stilldragon.eu/en/miscellan ... results=14

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Re: Help With Design

Post by Jstroke »

He den,

Well done on the build. I have appreciated the attention to detail, the pace, the curiosity and the willingness to stretch yourself. I hope it urges others to build their own. In regards to hose and emptying the boiler etc, just some thoughts.

I would size it as big as the drain if possible. Simply for the speed of emptying. I do not remember if this has been discussed or your specific home layout.
1. Gravity seems to help—not sure where you are “going” with the hose: drain, outside in the woods etc.
2. When stripping-you can shorten everything up and stick the boiler on a box/crate etc., and empty into a bucket. It might or might not be closer and or faster to physically haul it, again back to gravity and location. Backset/dunder can be useful after stripping to save for future runs/pit etc.

Concerning flat hoses, never owned one. For this it would be easier and smaller to store. However, without pressure I could see it kinking or failing to “inflate” and depending on the length of run might be considerable slower.
If in doubt leave it out.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks Jstroke for your kind praise, this whole forum has been a real help to me:)

Yes I agree on flat hose and that it may have drawbacks. In the end I opted for a 3/4" garden hose setup, quick release to the ball valve and no need to dismantle the entire column.
I can bring in the real garden hose to spray the inside down for real easy clean down without any moving the keg.

I note this point about backset/dunder and will research this too, so far I do not have a clue how to create a gin, I have obviously read a few recipes but I am better reading at the same time as doing the task. Looking forward to the first turn on, even if just to push steam through.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Condenser is a tight fit, I hope this will not be an issue.

There's more space between coil and tube after the tri-ferrule, but ferrules are a narrow point, where the two clamp back to back at the tee section.
I had initially thought it could restrict flow, as in steam/air flow. Maybe it will, maybe it won't and maybe it improves things. I'll have to build a narrower one to be certain.

It was built 40mm longer than the housing because there is 40mm available in the tee section below before the take-off valve side.
And I did not want to risk playing with shortening coil tails at soldering stage especially without salt, nor did I want to shorten the column below the tee by having built a taller coil housing.

Do you guys have any negative experiences/knowledge of these tight coils at all?

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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

1/2" camlock fittings attached then reducing nipple to 1/4" for flow control valve.
I know valve should be on the flow side, but is it preferential to feed flow through inner or outer coil?

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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Another intellectual property theft taken from Salt I think.

Supports for my copper mesh. Made by stripping some narrow flex for copper wire, squashing flat in vice, and overlapping the circle horizontally so as not to make the joint 2 wires high.

Screenshot_20220614-165931_Gallery.jpg
The cross supports were clamped in place before soldering and were purposely left short of the circle so that the solder made the bridge, this again saved additional height.

Screenshot_20220614-165911_Gallery.jpg
Note, the grips were strategically placed so as to add mass and strength to existing joints so that they didn't heat up so to melt and if they did, they'd be held in place.
To plenty balancing and bending, but they're perfect and strong.

Screenshot_20220614-165858_Gallery.jpg
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Yummyrum
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

Regarding coolant flow direction , my logic brain thinks the outer coil is doing the most work ( because its bigger), and as the reflux pours off the bottom of it where it joins the inner coil , it would make sense to feed the cold into the outer coil and exit from the inner to be as close ti counterflow as possible .

In practice I have found no obvious advantage running eitherway .
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Re: Help With Design

Post by OtisT »

Re: the tight fit being an issue?

Likely a non-issue, but I have always tried to keep my RC coils off of the column wall. My reasoning has been that I did not want to cool the head down any more than necessary (I insulate my heads) to minimize any pooling in the head. The other reason was so that I could more easily direct liquid reflux away from the VM port/thermometer and into the center of my packing.

I’d run your cold input into and down the center coil. One reason is that it will keep you coldest tubing off the the column wall (see above) and the other reason is that it will make directing your liquid reflux runoff much easier.

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Hebden
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks guys, yep it may well be two sides of a square regarding cooling flow, I'll try both over time to see if there's much in it. Camlocks will make swapping easy.

One more thing I'd like to test in future is using the flow out of my reflux condenser as flow into my shotgun.
Because I've built a huge shotgun, I'm wondering if that would cope with the warmer water as input.

By the way, do you guys hand tighten your tri-clamps or do you further tighten with a tool for leverage and super tighten?
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EricTheRed
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Re: Help With Design

Post by EricTheRed »

Hebden wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:36 am One more thing I'd like to test in future is using the flow out of my reflux condenser as flow into my shotgun.
Because I've built a huge shotgun, I'm wondering if that would cope with the warmer water as input.
that is how i believe the majority do it. Works for me

By the way, do you guys hand tighten your tri-clamps or do you further tighten with a tool for leverage and super tighten?
Hand tighten only[\b]
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Yummyrum
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

The PC ( shotty ) only has to cool about a 1/10th of the vapour that the RC ( coil) has to . I have always run into the Shotty then up to the RC . The coolant leaving the shotty is barely warm and definitely cool enough ti operate the RC
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Hebden wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:36 am do you guys hand tighten your tri-clamps or do you further tighten with a tool for leverage and super tighten?
Hand tighten is quite enough unless something is wrong with a gasket, the clamp or one of the mating surfaces.....these things were made for other industries where they are assembled and pulled apart again many times daily in some cases. The milk Industry is just one example.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I know everyone does things differently and has reasoning or a thought process behind it. I don't think you can go wrong either way because as stated previously, the shotgun has very little hot vapor to contend with during a spirit run in comparison to a stripping run. It's mostly the reflux condenser you should be concerned about. As long as your reflux condenser is not being over powered by the vapor, your shotgun will be running perfectly fine if linked in series, (shotgun being fed water first).

I run water to each condenser individually and each has its own small needle valve inline for fine control. Later I installed a thermowell on each condenser's outbound line so I can see the temp and even have an alarm sound off if the temp gets too high. My well water fluctuates when the well pump kicks on/off, a toilet flushes, cloths/dish washer runs, etc... Some use flow meters on the input line, but I prefer the direct measurement of temp. There are pros & cons to doing it this way though. CON: I've sometimes messed up by opening the gate valve and forgot to turn on the water to the shotgun. After several minutes, vapor was escaping the shotgun. If you link them in series, as long as the reflux condenser is operating, so will the shotgun.

Definitely only hand tighten Tri-Clamps. Believe it or not, they do break and it's always due to over-torque using tools. Once my still was 100% fabricated & assembled, I filled it up with water all the way to the top and inspected for leaks. This may sound like overkill, but I found some leaks due to some ferrules having been warped by TIG welding. For those joints I had to go with silicone gaskets because PTFE gaskets are too rigid.
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