Help With Design

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30xs
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Re: Help With Design

Post by 30xs »

[
Still scratching my head a little, but this has given me loads to consider thank you:)
[/quote]

What I meant by my statement was. If I had two condensers and one would get full reflux using a pint a minute water flow and the other used a quart a minute to get the same result. The one that used a pint a minute would have a very touchy needle valve adjustment compared to the one that used the higher flow rate.

From my experience I’ve found it better to have a reflux condenser that used the higher rate on a CM style. Adjusting for takeoff rate was easier. For a VM still where there is always full reflux, either would work and I’d choose the one that required less water to conserve water usage. Hope this helped.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:29 am
Hebden wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:10 pm Hi again Salt,

Thanks for the advice.

Do you run a 3" column and what OD pipe have you double coiled?
Yes, my VM still is 3". I made my reflux condenser out of 5/16" OD copper tubing. I pinched one end shut and filled it with table salt prior to coiling to prevent kinks and flattening. It took most of a day or so for water pressure to dissolve and clear the salt. Be patient and the salt will clear out.
Hi Salt,

Seriously I thank you for responding again and putting up with my naivety.

Your RC seems to be double coiled, 18 inside and 16 outside coils or there abouts. That is huge compared to say the condenser with circa 6 single coils made by Shadylane on the thread below:-
viewtopic.php?p=7562060#p7562060

Shady states he is knocking down 6,000w with 3 l/m cooling water with that simple cone design, admitedly he is running a 4" column and "obviously" I don't know the scale up capability of 3" v's 4" values, but Salt, you must be able to knock down a nuclear reactor with your double coiled average of 17 lines of RC?

Would you happen to know the l/m v's kW used for your coil?

Then theres this seemingly small device by 30xs which he claims to be happy with, 4" again, but tiny in height compared to your 17 coils.
viewtopic.php?p=7681493#p7681493

So my question is, the above two examples are on 4" columns, and your taller RC is on a 3" column. Is that the price you & I pay for having 3" columns, ie we need taller RC's?

I have noted the earlier advice offered by Otis about widening my column from 3"-4" or 3"-6" at RC and above the take off and therefore saving RC height, but I am also still trying to understand what I "should" build so as not to be too large.
viewtopic.php?p=7705681#p7705681

Especially as was pointed out by 30xs that it can become difficult to control when the RC is too powerful.
viewtopic.php?p=7679112#p7679112

I'd love it if it was as simple as building too big to be sure, but it seems that this will be negative in controlability.

Perhaps I should stop worrying and just build a simple tester coil and adapt as I go. Pretty sure I will end up buying either 10 meters coil of 8mm OD or 10mm OD pipe as that is what my local stocks. That'll give me at least one or two practice RC's.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

30xs wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:37 am What I meant by my statement was. If I had two condensers and one would get full reflux using a pint a minute water flow and the other used a quart a minute to get the same result. The one that used a pint a minute would have a very touchy needle valve adjustment compared to the one that used the higher flow rate.

From my experience I’ve found it better to have a reflux condenser that used the higher rate on a CM style. Adjusting for takeoff rate was easier. For a VM still where there is always full reflux, either would work and I’d choose the one that required less water to conserve water usage. Hope this helped.
30xs, yes that does help clarify things, much appreciated. It is yet another conundrum however as once again it shows that there is no right and no wrong option, but skill level of the user would determine how good they perceive each system.

Gotta say, your's is a lovely looking condenser. I like the compactness of it.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:29 am Yes, my VM still is 3". I made my reflux condenser out of 5/16" OD copper tubing.
Salt, that little vent on top of your RC plate, looks a similar 5/16", is that all you needs to not explode?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:28 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:29 am
Hebden wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:10 pm Hi again Salt,

Thanks for the advice.

Do you run a 3" column and what OD pipe have you double coiled?
Yes, my VM still is 3". I made my reflux condenser out of 5/16" OD copper tubing. I pinched one end shut and filled it with table salt prior to coiling to prevent kinks and flattening. It took most of a day or so for water pressure to dissolve and clear the salt. Be patient and the salt will clear out.
Hi Salt,

Seriously I thank you for responding again and putting up with my naivety.

Your RC seems to be double coiled, 18 inside and 16 outside coils or there abouts. That is huge compared to say the condenser with circa 6 single coils made by Shadylane on the thread below:-
viewtopic.php?p=7562060#p7562060

Shady states he is knocking down 6,000w with 3 l/m cooling water with that simple cone design, admitedly he is running a 4" column and "obviously" I don't know the scale up capability of 3" v's 4" values, but Salt, you must be able to knock down a nuclear reactor with your double coiled average of 17 lines of RC?

Would you happen to know the l/m v's kW used for your coil?

Then theres this seemingly small device by 30xs which he claims to be happy with, 4" again, but tiny in height compared to your 17 coils.
viewtopic.php?p=7681493#p7681493

So my question is, the above two examples are on 4" columns, and your taller RC is on a 3" column. Is that the price you & I pay for having 3" columns, ie we need taller RC's?

I have noted the earlier advice offered by Otis about widening my column from 3"-4" or 3"-6" at RC and above the take off and therefore saving RC height, but I am also still trying to understand what I "should" build so as not to be too large.
viewtopic.php?p=7705681#p7705681

Especially as was pointed out by 30xs that it can become difficult to control when the RC is too powerful.
viewtopic.php?p=7679112#p7679112

I'd love it if it was as simple as building too big to be sure, but it seems that this will be negative in controlability.

Perhaps I should stop worrying and just build a simple tester coil and adapt as I go. Pretty sure I will end up buying either 10 meters coil of 8mm OD or 10mm OD pipe as that is what my local stocks. That'll give me at least one or two practice RC's.
I think those were dephlegmators in the first link you sent me. They are using a very high water flow. Mine doesn't use much water at all and controlling the water flow is extremely controllable using a tiny needle valve connected to the 1/4" OD polypropylene tubing. I have a thermowell connected to the output of the condenser so I can also see the temp of the water. The thermometer shows how stable the water temp is and lets me know if it gets too high.

Even IF my reflux condenser were overkill, which I know it isn't, VM stills are not affected by too much knockdown power, fluctuations in water temp or instability of water pressure like cooling management stills or other stills that use dephlegmators. You can't have too big of a reflux condenser, but you can have one that is too small which will not knock down the vapor and it will escape past it. In such a case the only option is to increase water flow to compensate.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Sorry, I neglected the latter portion of your questions including your height limitation. Yes you can make a wider and shorter reflux condenser to compensate. Instead of more coils, you could use larger diameter copper tubing and still go with a double coil. The more surface area the merrier. Personally, I would probably stick with 3" and pitch mine at an angle to accommodate for the low ceiling height if that is possible. That keeps things really simple rather than dealing with 3" to 4" adapters and such. As long as there is enough pitch for fluid to flow, it shouldn't be an issue at all.

You have to understand that a reflux condenser is nothing like a dephlegmator. Reflux condensers have to absolutely knock down 100% of all vapor that rises. Not only that, it is also wise to allow for a decent temperature gradient to be on the safe side for water pressure fluctuations if you are running on home water pressure. That means that the bottom is hot, the top is cold and the center is in between regarding temp. If you have a REALLY efficient reflux condenser, that just means it will consume less water. Controlling the water is simple.

I understand your skepticism, reading many threads and a lot of reading can get you confused. Especially reading about dephlegmators and comparing them to reflux condensers. They're not the same thing at all. I'm telling you that my reflux condenser could quite easily be 4' long and my still would not behave differently at all. Like literally not at all differently. I would just use less water or even the exact same amount of water and it wouldn't behave any differently. That's what is GREAT about VM stills. They just run themselves.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm I'm telling you that my reflux condenser could quite easily be 4' long and my still would not behave differently at all. Like literally not at all differently. I would just use less water or even the exact same amount of water and it wouldn't behave any differently. That's what is GREAT about VM stills. They just run themselves.
Thanks Salt, right I'm going to have to wait for my keg to return with welded bits in place. When I know max height available for the RC, then it's time to go for it at maximum size I can then, which will not be much over 6" tall is my guess.

But really, if you say if yours would cope if it was 4" tall, it'd cope, that relieves my fears a little.
As does your using 8mm OD coil, because it'll be easier to handle.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm They just run themselves.
I'll believe that when I see it:)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:12 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm I'm telling you that my reflux condenser could quite easily be 4' long and my still would not behave differently at all. Like literally not at all differently. I would just use less water or even the exact same amount of water and it wouldn't behave any differently. That's what is GREAT about VM stills. They just run themselves.
Thanks Salt, right I'm going to have to wait for my keg to return with welded bits in place. When I know max height available for the RC, then it's time to go for it at maximum size I can then, which will not be much over 6" tall is my guess.

But really, if you say if yours would cope if it was 4" tall, it'd cope, that relieves my fears a little.
As does your using 8mm OD coil, because it'll be easier to handle.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm They just run themselves.
I'll believe that when I see it:)
I don't know if that was a typo or a misunderstanding. What I said before is that my reflux condenser could be four foot tall and my still would function identical compared to the one I currently use.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by acfixer69 »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:15 am
Hebden wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:12 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm I'm telling you that my reflux condenser could quite easily be 4' long and my still would not behave differently at all. Like literally not at all differently. I would just use less water or even the exact same amount of water and it wouldn't behave any differently. That's what is GREAT about VM stills. They just run themselves.
Thanks Salt, right I'm going to have to wait for my keg to return with welded bits in place. When I know max height available for the RC, then it's time to go for it at maximum size I can then, which will not be much over 6" tall is my guess.

But really, if you say if yours would cope if it was 4" tall, it'd cope, that relieves my fears a little.
As does your using 8mm OD coil, because it'll be easier to handle.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm They just run themselves.
I'll believe that when I see it:)
I don't know if that was a typo or a misunderstanding. What I said before is that my reflux condenser could be four foot tall and my still would function identical compared to the one I currently use.
That is not true. The condensate would become sub cooled and fall farther down the column before vaporizing again. Causing wasted energy and wasted water. Reflux ratio would be a bitch to control.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by 30xs »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:54 pm
Hebden wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:28 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:29 am
Hebden wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:10 pm Hi again Salt,

Thanks for the advice.

Do you run a 3" column and what OD pipe have you double coiled?
Yes, my VM still is 3". I made my reflux condenser out of 5/16" OD copper tubing. I pinched one end shut and filled it with table salt prior to coiling to prevent kinks and flattening. It took most of a day or so for water pressure to dissolve and clear the salt. Be patient and the salt will clear out.
Hi Salt,

Seriously I thank you for responding again and putting up with my naivety.

Your RC seems to be double coiled, 18 inside and 16 outside coils or there abouts. That is huge compared to say the condenser with circa 6 single coils made by Shadylane on the thread below:-
viewtopic.php?p=7562060#p7562060

Shady states he is knocking down 6,000w with 3 l/m cooling water with that simple cone design, admitedly he is running a 4" column and "obviously" I don't know the scale up capability of 3" v's 4" values, but Salt, you must be able to knock down a nuclear reactor with your double coiled average of 17 lines of RC?

Would you happen to know the l/m v's kW used for your coil?

Then theres this seemingly small device by 30xs which he claims to be happy with, 4" again, but tiny in height compared to your 17 coils.
viewtopic.php?p=7681493#p7681493

So my question is, the above two examples are on 4" columns, and your taller RC is on a 3" column. Is that the price you & I pay for having 3" columns, ie we need taller RC's?

I have noted the earlier advice offered by Otis about widening my column from 3"-4" or 3"-6" at RC and above the take off and therefore saving RC height, but I am also still trying to understand what I "should" build so as not to be too large.
viewtopic.php?p=7705681#p7705681

Especially as was pointed out by 30xs that it can become difficult to control when the RC is too powerful.
viewtopic.php?p=7679112#p7679112

I'd love it if it was as simple as building too big to be sure, but it seems that this will be negative in controlability.

Perhaps I should stop worrying and just build a simple tester coil and adapt as I go. Pretty sure I will end up buying either 10 meters coil of 8mm OD or 10mm OD pipe as that is what my local stocks. That'll give me at least one or two practice RC's.
I think those were dephlegmators in the first link you sent me. They are using a very high water flow. Mine doesn't use much water at all and controlling the water flow is extremely controllable using a tiny needle valve connected to the 1/4" OD polypropylene tubing. I have a thermowell connected to the output of the condenser so I can also see the temp of the water. The thermometer shows how stable the water temp is and lets me know if it gets too high.

Even IF my reflux condenser were overkill, which I know it isn't, VM stills are not affected by too much knockdown power, fluctuations in water temp or instability of water pressure like cooling management stills or other stills that use dephlegmators. You can't have too big of a reflux condenser, but you can have one that is too small which will not knock down the vapor and it will escape past it. In such a case the only option is to increase water flow to compensate.
Yes, mine is a dephlegmator but is also fully capable of knocking down 5500 watts plus, on a plated column, with sufficient water flow. I wouldn’t trust running it from a reservoir, and it would definitely use more water than a conventional double wound reflux coil. The little coil that he questioned me about is on 4’ of 3/8” o.d. tubing.

As I stated in my response it was built for a CM still. I didn’t read the whole thread, just replied to the quote notification.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by 30xs »

acfixer69 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:44 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:15 am
Hebden wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:12 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm I'm telling you that my reflux condenser could quite easily be 4' long and my still would not behave differently at all. Like literally not at all differently. I would just use less water or even the exact same amount of water and it wouldn't behave any differently. That's what is GREAT about VM stills. They just run themselves.
Thanks Salt, right I'm going to have to wait for my keg to return with welded bits in place. When I know max height available for the RC, then it's time to go for it at maximum size I can then, which will not be much over 6" tall is my guess.

But really, if you say if yours would cope if it was 4" tall, it'd cope, that relieves my fears a little.
As does your using 8mm OD coil, because it'll be easier to handle.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm They just run themselves.
I'll believe that when I see it:)
I don't know if that was a typo or a misunderstanding. What I said before is that my reflux condenser could be four foot tall and my still would function identical compared to the one I currently use.
That is not true. The condensate would become sub cooled and fall farther down the column before vaporizing again. Causing wasted energy and wasted water. Reflux ratio would be a bitch to control.
Is the sub cooled condensate more of a water supply temp, or total cooling surface? I’m asking because if the flow rate was set to have a hot water return then would it be possible to have too much surface? I hadn’t read up on this as I’ve always been CM, but like to gain some knowledge.

You haven’t steered me wrong before so I’m truly asking to gain an understanding.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

acfixer69 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:44 am That is not true. The condensate would become sub cooled and fall farther down the column before vaporizing again. Causing wasted energy and wasted water. Reflux ratio would be a bitch to control.
I have a VM still, not a CM. I don't use a dephlegmator so water is very easy to control with a needle valve. Many say that sub cooling is not really an issue. I was only trying to explain to Hebden that a reflux coil on a VM still is not rocket science. I exaggerated with a 4' coil condenser, but it's still true. If I run my reflux condenser at full flow, it knocks down 100% of vapor and the water exits nearly the same temp it enters. It doesn't affect my takeoff rate or the quality at all. So if it were twice as long, it wouldn't make any difference either. If I set it for only a dribble of water to exit, that's not wasting water.

The point is, your reflux condener can be undersized/too short and require more water flow to compensate in comparison to a longer one. The exact length is not rocket science. That's the only point I was making.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by acfixer69 »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:52 am
acfixer69 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:44 am That is not true. The condensate would become sub cooled and fall farther down the column before vaporizing again. Causing wasted energy and wasted water. Reflux ratio would be a bitch to control.
I have a VM still, not a CM. I don't use a dephlegmator so water is very easy to control with a needle valve. Many say that sub cooling is not really an issue. I was only trying to explain to Hebden that a reflux coil on a VM still is not rocket science. I exaggerated with a 4' coil condenser, but it's still true. If I run my reflux condenser at full flow, it knocks down 100% of vapor and the water exits nearly the same temp it enters. It doesn't affect my takeoff rate or the quality at all. So if it were twice as long, it wouldn't make any difference either. If I set it for only a dribble of water to exit, that's not wasting water.

The point is, your reflux condener can be undersized/too short and require more water flow to compensate in comparison to a longer one. The exact length is not rocket science. That's the only point I was making.
I understood your point as not rocket science, but this forum is read by many and newbs read into that, bigger is better when refluxing the deflagmators need to be sized reasonably close. VM needs 100% reflux until stable so it needs to reduce that in a controlled matter.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

acfixer69 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:54 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:52 am
acfixer69 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:44 am That is not true. The condensate would become sub cooled and fall farther down the column before vaporizing again. Causing wasted energy and wasted water. Reflux ratio would be a bitch to control.
I have a VM still, not a CM. I don't use a dephlegmator so water is very easy to control with a needle valve. Many say that sub cooling is not really an issue. I was only trying to explain to Hebden that a reflux coil on a VM still is not rocket science. I exaggerated with a 4' coil condenser, but it's still true. If I run my reflux condenser at full flow, it knocks down 100% of vapor and the water exits nearly the same temp it enters. It doesn't affect my takeoff rate or the quality at all. So if it were twice as long, it wouldn't make any difference either. If I set it for only a dribble of water to exit, that's not wasting water.

The point is, your reflux condener can be undersized/too short and require more water flow to compensate in comparison to a longer one. The exact length is not rocket science. That's the only point I was making.
I understood your point as not rocket science, but this forum is read by many and newbs read into that, bigger is better when refluxing the deflagmators need to be sized reasonably close. VM needs 100% reflux until stable so it needs to reduce that in a controlled matter.
I get what you are saying too, but we are ONLY talking about reflux condensers on top of a VM still. The OP referenced some links discussing dephlegmators and I was trying to explain that they are not the same. The OP has a height issue. He thought my reflux condenser was over sized because he was comparing it to some dephlegmators in those topics. I was trying to explain that even if my reflux condenser were 4' long, it wouldn't affect my still's operation. He can make it too short, under powered, inefficient with water and require much much more water flow to make try and make it work, but do not fear making it efficient (longer than absolute minimum required).
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Minor success tonight after my coupler arrived. 2" ferrule + shim + straight coupler + reducer all soldered up in one go and I am pleased to say it isn't leaking.
The shim made the 50.8mm OD ferrule fit the 54mm ID coupler. Most pleasing is the fact that I can solder steel. Life should be a doddle from here on.

Shim needed a filler.
Screenshot_20220405-174324_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20220411-223133_Gallery.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:15 am
Hebden wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:12 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm I'm telling you that my reflux condenser could quite easily be 4' long and my still would not behave differently at all. Like literally not at all differently. I would just use less water or even the exact same amount of water and it wouldn't behave any differently. That's what is GREAT about VM stills. They just run themselves.
Thanks Salt, right I'm going to have to wait for my keg to return with welded bits in place. When I know max height available for the RC, then it's time to go for it at maximum size I can then, which will not be much over 6" tall is my guess.

But really, if you say if yours would cope if it was 4" tall, it'd cope, that relieves my fears a little.
As does your using 8mm OD coil, because it'll be easier to handle.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:53 pm They just run themselves.
I'll believe that when I see it:)
I don't know if that was a typo or a misunderstanding. What I said before is that my reflux condenser could be four foot tall and my still would function identical compared to the one I currently use.
Thanks Salt, it was my mistake, I am a terrible reader and I misunderstood what you had written. Thank you for clarification:)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:14 am I use John Guest Fittings and 1/4" Polypropylene tubing and a tiny brass needle valve for 1/4" OD tubing to control the flow. All of the above has a higher max temp rating than you'll need for distilling. Polyethylene tubing doesn't have a high enough temp rating in comparison to Polypropylene tubing. I cooked polyethylene on the output of my dephlegmator to the point of failure. Polypropylene holds up to that temp nicely so I use it for everything.
John Guest Fittings.jpgNeedle Valve.jpg
Hi Salt,
I am really struggling to fing Polypropylene pipe here in UK and whats more, I have found it, but it is only imperial sized.

But all the 1/2" bsp threaded push fits I can find after hours of searching ar metric and minimum 10mm push fit to 1/2" bsp. The imperial pipe is 3/8" OD = 9.5mm
This 0.5mm seems to big a differance for water to escape. Are you certain I need polypropylene? Won't I get away with nylon or polyethylene?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:37 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:14 am I use John Guest Fittings and 1/4" Polypropylene tubing and a tiny brass needle valve for 1/4" OD tubing to control the flow. All of the above has a higher max temp rating than you'll need for distilling. Polyethylene tubing doesn't have a high enough temp rating in comparison to Polypropylene tubing. I cooked polyethylene on the output of my dephlegmator to the point of failure. Polypropylene holds up to that temp nicely so I use it for everything.
John Guest Fittings.jpgNeedle Valve.jpg
Hi Salt,
I am really struggling to fing Polypropylene pipe here in UK and whats more, I have found it, but it is only imperial sized.

But all the 1/2" bsp threaded push fits I can find after hours of searching ar metric and minimum 10mm push fit to 1/2" bsp. The imperial pipe is 3/8" OD = 9.5mm
This 0.5mm seems to big a differance for water to escape. Are you certain I need polypropylene? Won't I get away with nylon or polyethylene?
No I wouldn't say you absolutely need it. The water exiting your shotgun hopefully won't get high enough of a temp to cook it, but it can if you don't let enough water through the shotgun or reflux condenser. Just don't let that happen. Have a good flow then turn the flow down until you like it. The temps that exited my dephlegmator did cook my polyethylene tubing. That's why I switched to polypropylene for everything, so I can be confident that will be the only tubing I'll ever need for any use. That's the main reason I usually recommend polypropylene. 1/2" is really big, it was so rigid that it was uncomfortable using, the water flow you will need is going to be so minimal, you'll see that is why I switched to 1/4" OD tubing. There's plenty of pressure on a home water system. Bumping up to 3/8" is fine, but still larger than what will ever be needed considering the small flow that is required for stills our size. Now if you were running a 4" still, I'd likely increase the size to 3/8" for sure.

I just Googled "polypropylene tubing max temp" and compared it to other tubing's max temp.

I've been there, done that. I started with 1/2" everything. That is why I mention this to anyone who's in the planning stage, so they might not have to redo everything later like I did.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:16 pm I've been there, done that. I started with 1/2" everything. That is why I mention this to anyone who's in the planning stage, so they might not have to redo everything later like I did.
Salt, thanks once again sir,

I have just realised I can add a "reducer" straight after the camlock to get a smaller push fit and therefore pipe size. This then enables polypropylene with a closer but not perfect match.
Options are shown below, but they both have a smaller size difference than 0.5mm without the reducer in place.

As I like the ease of camlock fittings (expensive and non-returnable now) for dismantling and their minimum size being 1/2", I am stuck with 1/2" BSP from the shotgun now. I was going to run from the shotgun as following:-

Shotgun outlet is female 1/2" BSP (same as your NPT)
1/2" needle valve
1/2" camlock adapter
1/2" camlock coupler
1/2" BSP to 1/4" BSP reducer
1/4" BSP to 6mm or 8mm push fit pipe fitting (high temp reated)
6.3mm or 7.9mm polypropylene pipe

There is a way to reduce straight off the shotgun to also use 1/4" needle valve, but to implement my expensive camlock's, I would have to size back up to 1/2" for the camlocks before reducing to 1/4" for the push fit. That is very messy and I am not keen.

So, how important do you think the 1/4" needle valve is and would you suggest I aim for the 0.3mm or 0.1mm difference in pipe to push fit by using 1/4" pipe or 5/16" pipe?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:37 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:16 pm I've been there, done that. I started with 1/2" everything. That is why I mention this to anyone who's in the planning stage, so they might not have to redo everything later like I did.
Salt, thanks once again sir,

I have just realised I can add a "reducer" straight after the camlock to get a smaller push fit and therefore pipe size. This then enables polypropylene with a closer but not perfect match.
Options are shown below, but they both have a smaller size difference than 0.5mm without the reducer in place.

As I like the ease of camlock fittings (expensive and non-returnable now) for dismantling and their minimum size being 1/2", I am stuck with 1/2" BSP from the shotgun now. I was going to run from the shotgun as following:-

Shotgun outlet is female 1/2" BSP (same as your NPT)
1/2" needle valve
1/2" camlock adapter
1/2" camlock coupler
1/2" BSP to 1/4" BSP reducer
1/4" BSP to 6mm or 8mm push fit pipe fitting (high temp reated)
6.3mm or 7.9mm polypropylene pipe

There is a way to reduce straight off the shotgun to also use 1/4" needle valve, but to implement my expensive camlock's, I would have to size back up to 1/2" for the camlocks before reducing to 1/4" for the push fit. That is very messy and I am not keen.

So, how important do you think the 1/4" needle valve is and would you suggest I aim for the 0.3mm or 0.1mm difference in pipe to push fit by using 1/4" pipe or 5/16" pipe?
The needle valve is very small, inexpensive and readily available where I live. Larger valves are less sensitive to adjustment (coarse control) so that's why I went with a small valve that matches the small tubing which keeps it simple an easily controllable.

Many here on the forum that run dephlegmators on home water pressure have experienced that they are extremely sensitive to fluctuations in water flow/pressure. Many use a 'RV water pressure regulator' to turn their pressure way down. Once their water pressure is turned down, any needle valve gives them a wider range of control. This would likely be the easiest and least expensive option to suit your 1/2" plumbing.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Thanks Salt,
Yep I've already ordered a pressure regulator to place on the supply side, so I should be good to go then.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Just thinking about electrics, how safe is it to run inside the house?

I am considering running a 32A wall plug and socket on its own breaker, easiest location is garage but with the house above, I don't want to risk house burning down.
Otherwise I could run on the patio as I think the unused cable running outside would suit 32A also.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:45 pm Just thinking about electrics, how safe is it to run inside the house?

I am considering running a 32A wall plug and socket on its own breaker, easiest location is garage but with the house above, I don't want to risk house burning down.
Otherwise I could run on the patio as I think the unused cable running outside would suit 32A also.
I feel that running an electric element is much safer and more convenient than gas. Everyone usually has mishaps eventually, but I haven't had anything so serious that I feared for fire, though I have two fire extinguishers. I've forgotten to turn the water back on and I had vapor escape the top as well as vapor escape the product condenser. Ignition of that vapor is a concern if there is any ignition source near by. I sometimes wonder what is the worst thing that happen if my element craps out for whatever reason? I don't know what could happen or if that could ignite something.

I enjoy operating indoors (heated garage) for obvious reasons. I don't know how many times it was raining, snowing and wind blowing outside. I couldn't imagine being limited to operating outdoors. Ultimately it is a decision everyone has to make for themselves, but I'm confident and comfortable operating indoors. I'll admit at first I was on edge and nervous about everything like just plugging in my controller and switching it on. The sound of the element in the boiler. I was suspicious something was going to fry if I did something wrong. After a while you learn your still, become fully confident in your controller and you know you did a good job piecing it together.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Deplorable »

Hebden wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:45 pm Just thinking about electrics, how safe is it to run inside the house?

I am considering running a 32A wall plug and socket on its own breaker, easiest location is garage but with the house above, I don't want to risk house burning down.
Otherwise I could run on the patio as I think the unused cable running outside would suit 32A also.
I built my controller and run it on a 30A circuit in the garage. Now that I've gone electric I doubt I'd ever go back to gas. I do 80% of my stillin in the winter months, and being able to have to door closed and heat on in the garage is a huge plus. Then there is the additional added benefit of not having to go get propane refills every 3rd weekend. Do it. The only way you might wish you hadn't is if you want to run really murky beer in your boiler, But a scorch on gas is just as likely I reckon. I've scorched on gas, and quickly learned that its better to just wait another week and let it all clear.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

If you can build a shotgun condenser, you can build a controller :thumbup: A tried and true wiring diagram is all you need. It helps if you understand it though.

Do you have any one specific type of controller in mind? If you do, I'm sure wiring diagrams will come flooding in. I know enough about US 240V, but not yours on the other side of the pond. Plenty here do though.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:53 pm If you can build a shotgun condenser, you can build a controller :thumbup: A tried and true wiring diagram is all you need. It helps if you understand it though.
Hi guys,
Yes I'm defo running electric and 5500w element.

I've purchased the Still Dragon DIY kit, looks easy enough to build and wasn't expensive. I think I just need to dedicate a 30A breaker to it to be totally safe. Although it would almost cope on the garage plug circuit which has next to nothing plugged in.

It was more the accident side of the operation that had me worried and the likelihood of an explosion of some sort with potential fire.
Deplorable wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:24 pm The only way you might wish you hadn't is if you want to run really murky beer in your boiler
I love murky beer but no plans to brew it and am happy with the element as heat source.

My ideal run location would be in my hallway as I'd have food access to tv or laptop if the process takes many hours.
Not only that, but I could make the column as tall as I want to avoid my garage 2.5m height restriction infringing my condenser design.

The other half might not be keen though.
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Re: Help With Design

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Even if I could run in the house I don't know that I would. SWMBO talks too much and distracts me from the task at hand. I'd rather be left to my own in the garage when I'm "playing with my toys" as she puts it. But She doesn't mind drinking what I make...
My garage has tall a high ceiling, so height isn't an issue.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by drmiller100 »

I didn't read all 6 pages. But your original design looks good.
4000 watts with a 3 inch column is about max for marble packing.
36 inches of marbles is plenty. Consider moving the temp program down 6 or 10 inches into the packing. With this you can monitor the column better.

For the condenser 30 inches of 5/16 or 8 mm copper tubing works well.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Deplorable wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:03 pm Even if I could run in the house I don't know that I would. SWMBO talks too much and distracts me from the task at hand. I'd rather be left to my own in the garage when I'm "playing with my toys" as she puts it. But She doesn't mind drinking what I make...
My garage has tall a high ceiling, so height isn't an issue.
Haha, well I certainly understand what you mean there Deplorable, SWMBO is the same globally and when your into something, they must distract!
drmiller100 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:37 pm I didn't read all 6 pages. But your original design looks good.
4000 watts with a 3 inch column is about max for marble packing.
36 inches of marbles is plenty. Consider moving the temp program down 6 or 10 inches into the packing. With this you can monitor the column better.

For the condenser 30 inches of 5/16 or 8 mm copper tubing works well.
Hello drmiller and thank you for sharing your knowledge, especially your condenser length. I'm going to have to see my available height when welder has put ferries on my keg before deciding how exactly I'll construct my condenser.

As for packing, I was going to try copper mesh, found a source that seems cheap enough and a big enough roll to last a lifetime.
https://www.pestcontroldirect.co.uk/sho ... 00ft-roll/
drmiller100 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:37 pm Consider moving the temp program down 6 or 10 inches into the packing.
Do you mean the take off tee, if so that'd give my RC plenty of space but I was trying to achieve 20x column width in column height. The payoff may be necessary though.

Also what I keep thinking is my ceiling height will stop me from being able to raise and lower my RC in to my column for adjustments, is it possible to fully adjust with the water pressure controller and needle valve?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Well, what feels like a 10 week wait for the welder to do his stuff and finally he has completed his part.

It's exciting to put all the pieces together, I've not much time to dig into things right now, but I have that all important measurement of remaining height available.

So I've a 3" column to build and 1800mm height remaining. Some above the tee and most below.
Tonight's homework is to re-read the thread and calculate how much to allocate below the tee and how much above (remembering to allow for space to pull the Reflux Coil in/out)

Screenshot_20220610-173636_Gallery.jpg
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