Help With Design

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Salt Must Flow
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I was recently wondering if you were going to come back with any updates. Looks very good. Do you think there's any room in that box for one of those digital volt/amp/watt meters? The one I have in front of me sits approx 1" deep, 3-1/4" wide and 1-7/8" long. They aren't really required, but might help to dial your power in with more precision and for repeatability. They're pretty inexpensive too. This is the one I bought a couple years ago, but never got around to using it. I ended up building an Auber Ezboil controller.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

Hebden , maybe a bit nit-picking , but best practice is to have all earth wires connect to same point if possible .
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Yummyrum wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:16 pm Hebden , maybe a bit nit-picking , but best practice is to have all earth wires connect to same point if possible .
Thanks Yummy, I may look at this again if/when I open the controller up, but I did put yellow ring clips on everything, even earths/grounds and really tightened things down and so I think it should be good as the base of the unit is made of allow and surely must for a good contact.

Well good news, dry run with just water in the kettle to do a simple run for starters and the electrics are not blowing anymore, initially I had wired the neutral into the wrong bank of neutrals on the fuse board.

Test Run Outside:
I have taken cold water up from 16d C to 31 in about 18mins whilst fuse was blowing in between so not accurate. After rewiring neutral, I just started at 31c and hit 51c in 17.5 mins.
Then a further 21 minutes to go from 51c to 81c and I'll power down now I think and do a full eight run another day.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:10 pm Do you think there's any room in that box for one of those digital volt/amp/watt meters? The one I have in front of me sits approx 1" deep, 3-1/4" wide and 1-7/8" long. They aren't really required, but might help to dial your power in with more precision and for repeatability.
Ooh I like the look of that, I love gadgetry and am very tempted, although I need to re-measure inside my controller box later to check if it fits (I could re-jig inside or perhaps buy next size up easily and locally I am sure). However from my past reading, like you say, totally not required as it is best run on sound and touch isn't it? I might just keep it simple for now and not too technical in order to just get a feel for a run.
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:10 pm I ended up building an Auber Ezboil controller.
There's another subject for me to top up on eek :)

Well my next stage of this process is to learn how to brew and to find some brewing kit, sounds crazy I know but I wanted to know I could build the kit successfully and also because I know I am poor at retaining info and didn't want too much on my hands but I think I will start looking.

I know I have always intended to create a gin, but more and more I am thinking of the drinks that I never touch like rums and brandies too. I'll probably lurk in other sections of the forum for a couple of days and then pick one of the well tried and tested recipes.

I don't want to produce masses because I may end up with litres of expensive product that I cannot use, I am not a massive drinker of shorts, but I just like the idea of the art of brewing.
So I think one 50 keg full of 10-12% sugar wash will be plenty to begin with, which with my basic knowledge will produce circa 10 litres of end product which woukd be loads for now.
However I also do not want to buy equipment only for it to be no good in 6 months of trying, it's the lifelong balance of things I suppose.

I am not sure at this moment weather to create say 150L of wash (probably too much for me) in order to have 3 run batches which can be stored longer term at the correct stage. I need to read some.

Thaks again all.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

The thickness of your plastic box will deduct from the depth measurement. Knowing that sometimes helps. If you do some reflux runs going by eye, you might wonder how many actual watts you're running. I wouldn't assume that the sticker for that dial will be truly accurate for instance if you run at half power (so says the sticker) with a 5500W element that doesn't mean you're actually running at 2750W. If you run into any issues or have questions about your reflux run, most will ask how many watts your power input is. It makes your reflux runs repeatable, but with actual accuracy.

As far as equipment goes for relatively small scale batches goes, I'd consider getting one of those Igloo 10 gal insulated drink coolers and a brew bag. You can elevate your electric boiler, heat up the water then gravity feed it to the Igloo cooler. That's about as basic as it gets. There's all kinds of ways to modify these Igloo coolers too. Here's a video that shows using a brew bag.
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Re: Help With Design

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Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:40 am If you run into any issues or have questions about your reflux run, most will ask how many watts your power input is. It makes your reflux runs repeatable, but with actual accuracy.
Yep I see your point Salt, I've had a look in the UK and it seems we have similar available which I think will do the job in the below, it has fewer details but I presume there are enough detail to do the job?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/80-260V-Digita ... 115&sr=1-2

I've bookmarked the 10g Igloo thanks and brew bag, the size looks good for beginning. I'm just going to read up on the process so I understnd the process a little more.
That guy Randy in the video only had the mash tun in operation for 1.5hrs + 1.5hrs again before sparging into his fermentation buckets from his Igloo.

For some reason I had it in my head that the whole process would be done in one vessel (ie a form of red Igloo appropriate for fermentation) up until the point it was taken out (poured in) to the boiler keg I just made.
I just need to be able to free up enough time to dig into the reading up on things.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Hebden wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:54 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:40 am If you run into any issues or have questions about your reflux run, most will ask how many watts your power input is. It makes your reflux runs repeatable, but with actual accuracy.
Yep I see your point Salt, I've had a look in the UK and it seems we have similar available which I think will do the job in the below, it has fewer details but I presume there are enough detail to do the job?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/80-260V-Digita ... 115&sr=1-2

I've bookmarked the 10g Igloo thanks and brew bag, the size looks good for beginning. I'm just going to read up on the process so I understnd the process a little more.
That guy Randy in the video only had the mash tun in operation for 1.5hrs + 1.5hrs again before sparging into his fermentation buckets from his Igloo.

For some reason I had it in my head that the whole process would be done in one vessel (ie a form of red Igloo appropriate for fermentation) up until the point it was taken out (poured in) to the boiler keg I just made.
I just need to be able to free up enough time to dig into the reading up on things.
Any of those meters should work as long as they at least list watts. I like being able to know what my power input is rather than not knowing and going by just a tick mark on a sticker. As long as it is repeatable, I can open my valve X turns and my takeoff rate is always the same.

Yeah some people ferment on the grain and some don't. I'd try a single recipe both ways, see if/how it differs and which you prefer. I don't do much AG (all grain) so I haven't played around with it much. I bought enzymes for conversion so I didn't have to dink around with malted grain for conversion (though there may be benefits to using it). Here's a recent topic about "on or off".
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Just a quick question Salt, I can buy both the power meter you have not used in UK as well as the one I found. The one I found lacks the Power Factor & Hz readings.
It would take 3 weeks for me to receive the one you have but with those two extra data fields. Do you think it is worth having those? I can happily wait as my first brew will take longer to be ready anyway but if they're not much use, perhaps I'll just get the speedier delivery option.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Yummyrum »

You know the frequency of your mains supply in your country … so the hertz is irrelevant . It’ll either be 50Hz or 60Hz .

The power factor of a resistive element is always 100 … so it won’t effect the power reading …. again irrelevant.
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Re: Help With Design

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Thanks Yummy:)
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Re: Help With Design

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Hebden wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:21 am Just a quick question Salt, I can buy both the power meter you have not used in UK as well as the one I found. The one I found lacks the Power Factor & Hz readings.
It would take 3 weeks for me to receive the one you have but with those two extra data fields. Do you think it is worth having those? I can happily wait as my first brew will take longer to be ready anyway but if they're not much use, perhaps I'll just get the speedier delivery option.
Watts is all I care about. The rest is as Yummy said, irrelevant.

My controller reads 0% to 100% power and I adjust with rotary knob/button. If I'm running at 50% with my 5500W element then I made a little calculator in Microsoft Excel which tells me how many watts that is (2750W in this instance). For you to be able to see watts on your controller is most convenient. I went with this controller because it also reads temp with 1/10 degree F, works as a variable power controller AND as a PID controller. It has MANY smart functions, settings and multiple temp alarms. For me, this was a reasonable tradeoff for not being able to see Watts.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Well Salt, those PID controllers seem a very clever thin indeed. I can see they're good, but for now I am going to learn the hard way (without a PID) as I think I need the experience of babysitting manually and experiencing what a PID needs to do in my own mind.

I noticed an interesting thing when I trial ran my keg with water the other day, see image of my temp guage below (yes it's a meat prodder from my kitchen). I had hung my stat in the top of the keg within the water and had observed the water temp rising gently. Then note what I said about having wired my neutral incorrectly and so there was a pause in heating whilst I corrected my wiring.
After my wiring was corrected, I restarted things to see how the temp would behave with the element working as it should, only as my stat is on a long lead, it had sunk all the way to the bottom of my keg without me noticing.

Presuming my electric wiring was now correct (and it was) and having turned power up to 100%, I thought the water within my keg would heat quickly. But it kept on reading 31d (ie not warming at all), I honestly thought I had blown my element prior to my wiring correction. Then I realised my thermostat had sunk to the base of my keg and below the element, I lifted it up to the top of my keg water again and it read 46 degrees within seconds.

In an accidental way, I learned that the inside liquid content does not heat uniformally (I am sure this is obvious to you experienced folk) and that despite the water below the element being just 2" in height and so close to the element, it had not heated.
Of course I realise that it must have heated the lower water to some degree and that rotational motion had just replaced the cool liquid to the bottom as warmer liquids rose to push the higher cool waters back down, but it was an very interesting observation.

In fact it's an observation that I may need another test to identify the time taken to balance out the temp of the whole volume of liquid into one constant temp as it will play a part in the eventual distillation I guess. I suppose it'll never be a fully constant temperature but it should be possible after xx minutes to get just a 1 degree temp variable from top to bottom, and I guess that is when you have optimised your hearts and start entering tails?
(now I am guessing)
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Just to be clear, PIDs are not used for operating a still. The variable power option is for operating a still. The PID function is very handy for many different things because it's just an extremely precise thermostat.

Personally I'm not at all concerned about the temp at the very bottom of the boiler. We know heat rises, but eventually it has to become uniform (or uniform enough). I forget what the temp of my boiler gets at the moment vapor starts rising up the column, but I want to say it's around 180F-190F. You could probably test this some time by putting a temp probe against the underside of the boiler. The main reason I'm not concerned is because I can and have extracted all of what I expected to get out of a wash. You can confirm this by removing a sample out of your boiler, let it cool and test the % ABV (at 60F or temp corrected). Pot stills can't, but reflux columns do. Pot stills leave around 3% ABV in the boiler. A refllux column will remove that remaining 3% at the end of a stripping run if you want to extract it. You can keep it for feints or add it to your spirit run. If the boiler didn't heat the wash adequately then I shouldn't have been able to remove all of the alcohol.
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Re: Help With Design

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As you noticed heat stratifies in the boiler. It does this is the fermenter as well once fermentation becomes less vigorous. For that reason I put my heat element at the bottom and temp probe at the top. If you put heat and probe at the top, the bottom can stay 10-15 deg cooler and never mix.

The initial boiling point of the wort in the boiler tells you the abv of your fermentation. Higher, less alcohol, lower more. It will slowly rise during the run until it gets to the temperature water boils at your elevation. That’s one way you know your run is done.
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Re: Help With Design

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Hebden wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:54 am In an accidental way, I learned that the inside liquid content does not heat uniformally (I am sure this is obvious to you experienced folk) and that despite the water below the element being just 2" in height and so close to the element, it had not heated.
Of course I realise that it must have heated the lower water to some degree and that rotational motion had just replaced the cool liquid to the bottom as warmer liquids rose to push the higher cool waters back down, but it was an very interesting observation.
This is why an agitator is interesting even when there are no solids in the boiler. And why you really want your heating element as low as possible in the boiler. An argument has been made that stratification could lead to smearing. If the top is hot enough to start evaporating vapour then your fores are going to be smeared until the whole pot has reached boiling point. It's even possible that the stratification remains throughout the run and a few litres of wash never get distilled.
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Re: Help With Design

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NormandieStill wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:02 am
Hebden wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:54 am In an accidental way, I learned that the inside liquid content does not heat uniformally (I am sure this is obvious to you experienced folk) and that despite the water below the element being just 2" in height and so close to the element, it had not heated.
Of course I realise that it must have heated the lower water to some degree and that rotational motion had just replaced the cool liquid to the bottom as warmer liquids rose to push the higher cool waters back down, but it was an very interesting observation.
This is why an agitator is interesting even when there are no solids in the boiler. And why you really want your heating element as low as possible in the boiler. An argument has been made that stratification could lead to smearing. If the top is hot enough to start evaporating vapour then your fores are going to be smeared until the whole pot has reached boiling point. It's even possible that the stratification remains throughout the run and a few litres of wash never get distilled.
Hi Normandie,

Thanks for your input, it has been a while since we interacted and I apprceiate your popping in to help me out now and again.

I had to google stratification, but after doing so and from my observations on my grand controlled test of one tap water test, I can say it is a distinct possibility that a few litres of wash never get distilled without an agitator.

My limited knowledge presumption would naturally be that eventually the internal temp of a body of water would eventually balance out given a long slow environment of temperature increase.
However, my instinct says that is a flawed logic and that a "volcanic torrent" would distribute the heat to the section below the heating element whereas a gentle and steady heat increase situation would not (in fact as I type, I think this exagerated example is the more likely one to extract distill all the contents).
That is not to say it would be good for your brew, I am far too much of a novice to know of that outcome, it's just my very amateur liquid heat distribution theory and is very likely flawed.

In short, yes an agitator would be necessary if efficiency was top priority "I guess", It'll be a while before I get close to that actually making a difference though.
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Re: Help With Design

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NormandieStill wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:02 am This is why an agitator is interesting even when there are no solids in the boiler.
So what sort of thing would make a good agitator, should I start testing local stones or shellfish shells in a pan of water at circa 80c?
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Re: Help With Design

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Hebden wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:48 pm So what sort of thing would make a good agitator, should I start testing local stones or shellfish shells in a pan of water at circa 80c?
For an agitator to work in this situation it needs to be active not passive. If the volume under your element is not being heated significantly then boiling chips in that zone won't change anything.

You either need conductive elements descending from the element (e.g. copper tube which touches the element and sits on the bottom... though I'm not sure how good the conduction would be with just laying it on top) or a powered stirred. Until I fitted a lower element to my boiler I would periodically open the fill port and give the wash a good stir while it was coming up to temp. Prior to that I could comfortably leave my hand on the bottom of my keg even though the top was burning hot. Go low tech where possible. A motorised agitator is an interesting but more involved project.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Boom, so please tell me if I am on the right track now guys, I think I have sussed things.

So I want to make a circa 150L wash but be albe to Mash in the future, so that I can do 3 stripping runs in one session.

My first wash will be Shadylanes method because it looks relatively easy for a newbie like me. Method here:-
viewtopic.php?p=7542469#p7542469

And I will be implementing ShineonCrazyDiamonds Easy Large Batch method to do so, shown here:-
viewtopic.php?p=7462525#p7462525

In the UK, I have just found what looks a perfect and yet affordable water container with the optional extra of a water heater jacket (see last image). And so, would I be correct in assuming I should buy two of these but only one water jacket?

Water Containers
https://www.directwatertanks.co.uk/plas ... HPEALw_wcB

I am unsure if I need some headroom in my water container for any reason making me need to size up?

Heater Jackets
https://www.directwatertanks.co.uk/plas ... ter-jacket

And size wise, I could use 2 x 150L containers or 2 x 220L containers or one of each?

The jackets allegedly heat between 0-40c (32f-104f) using 450w of power, this is OK isn't it?
(there is a 1200w heater jacket but it is considerably more expensive)

And that if I am only doing sugar washes, I could get away with buying just one? (I would still buy two for ease of shipping costs).

I am thinking that if I pull the trigger on these, I could be ready to start brewing?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

I think the heater jacker would be better not purchased and building this (also ShineonCrazyDiamonds idea) would be much better. Still going to buy the jacket I think, it might do for certain tasks.

Mash Heater Cooler.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I'm sure Shady's Shine recipe will be great. I've been using a version of that recipe for years. I'll be doing Shady's with my next wash. The version I've been using uses a LOT of boiled yeast where Shady uses less boiled and more for pitching. You'll like it.

I'd search around locally and see if someone sells used poly drums. There's no shortage of used food safe drums of all sizes and types where I'm at.

You made a shotgun condenser so I know you can make your own wart chiller out of copper tubing :lol:
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Re: Help With Design

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Oh Salt, you are not kidding, that shotgun was a bugger to build, but has given me some confidence to tackle anything after that and that simple wart chiller would be childs play in comparison.
I am going to hold fire for now and get a simple Shady sugar shine brew on, the one after will be a Mash, I think my mind is made up on that.

The water drums I linked are already on order. Initially I ordered a 220L, but then this morning I called up and ordered a 150L (fermenter) and a 60L for low wines.
Then this evening I received shipping confirmation that my 220L is dispatched, so will wait and see what turns up. :eh:

If I am making a 150L mash, not sugar wash in future, would that extra space in a 220L be useful for the big slop?

So my water supply is tap water in UK, it is a soft water and has 18.9mg/l calcium within. Is that an issue?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Chauncey »

Can't put low wines in plastic
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Re: Help With Design

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Thanks Chauncey
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Well I thought I should try the vault display meter before my vinegar run to get a feel for it.

Dry power on with no liquid in keg, just to test my wiring, all looked good.

20221009_191158.jpg

Then I thought I'd put it back together and temporarily as the box isn't large enough, I'd need to strap it outside somewhere.
This time without the keg attachment, so watts and power read zero, whilst volts hit 280v (odd as we have 240v in UK), it started smoking so I immediately turned off.
But confused as to if this was caused because I did it with no element. I might just add water and give it another go, I need to know before I get involved with vinegar run.

20221009_191535.jpg
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

All is well that ends well, just needed proper load on the little electronics box. Just did various powers for over 10 mins.
The smoke arrived in seconds when I did it wrong.

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Re: Help With Design

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I think the problem is you have connected it after the SSRV .

I know , you are probably scratching your head thinking what is the point of having a Voltmeter if you can’t .

Well as you just found out , they smoke up .
It’s well known around here that this happens and this is why they are always connected before the SSRV .

But uou’ll be asking whats the point ? The voltage will always read the mains voltage and not what the element is getting . And you would be correct . Unfortunately , its the only way to run these so they don’t burn out . You just ignore the voltage and use the current reading .

It is not because you had no load . It is because you had the controller turned down low . If you run them with medium to high power level , they will function OK , its when you turn them down low that the internal power supply components are starving for power and they smoke up .
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Well great news is I have just bagged 4 x 19 litre cornelius kegs at a good price, which will make collection of wash and product very easy. I am very happy with that purchase.

I am a little confused as to the best way to collect product though. Do I need 17 x 1L jars or 34 x 500ml or something completely different?

From my 50L of wash to run, there will be heads and fores to remove but then I will have many liters before the tails and so perhaps I could just dump 10 or 12L of hearts into a corny keg before returning to jars later in the run?

However, with me being so new and wanting to do the best by my product going forward, not just for this run but all future runs, what is the best way of doing things if anybody wouldn't mind enlightening me please?
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Yummyrum wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:25 pm I think the problem is you have connected it after the SSRV .
Correct! Thanks you, I will rectify this it as you have stated thank you :thumbup:
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Chauncey »

You should go ahead and invest in a shitload of canning jars. They will become useful for storage and experiments as well as cuts and collection. I'd go with like a dozen 500ml and a dozen 1L and 6 2L at minimum.

Collect in smaller jars thru the heads/hearts transition then when I get into obvious hearts I collect a greater volume in larger jars. Then switch back to smaller ones after a few before the transition to tails. That's just me. Sometimes I just collect into a large "hearts jug" but I've been at this a while and know my recipes yields well and have alot of experience judging and making cuts on the fly.
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Re: Help With Design

Post by Hebden »

Top man Chauncey:)
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