Temperature confusion

[nkelble]

I have 2 thermometers on my pot still in the lid. (to ensure accuracy I did the redundant thing) I got nothing until they both read about 195F. Went all the way to 214F and from what I could tell wasn't boiling. Now, that being said I checked the SG using a refractometer and the first 2 quarts were 80%. 3 quart was 75%, 4th quart was 55 and the 5th quart was 35. I stopped there because, unfortunately, I ran outta ice to cool my condenser. Is this normal and is there a thermometer I can add to the thumper to check the temp there? Thanks for any help.

[Twisted Brick]

I'm curious, nkelble. Why did you install your thermometers in the lid and what were you expecting them to help you with? Is there an ABV you were hoping to associate with a temperature to help you with your distilling? How did you happen to come across such an association?

I think your answers may help any subsequent replies you get, but please don't take whatever 'clarifications' you receive personally. There is a (strongly) recommended base of reading needed to understand how this hobby works, and by the nature of your question, it's clear you haven't done that. But to be fair, maybe you can explain what you were hoping to hear.

[nkelble]

my final wash reading over a course of 3 days was a steady 1.002. The thermometer that came with the kit was exceptionally hard to read and I installed a much more accurate and easier to read one. I have read and seen in videos that methanol comes off at about 122F and Ethanol comes off at about 174F ish. I'm most interested in why I didn't get any output until it was almost at 200 degrees. Thanks for your response!!

[Wyododge]

The strongly recommended reading begins with these.

Read the parent site.
Read the novice section in the forum

Search - spoon feeding
Search - distilling 101
Search - making good cuts

[Skipper1953]

Pay attention to what all these guys are telling you.

[NZChris]

For a pot still to not produce until it reaches 195° is normal.

It has a thumper.

[NZChris]

Run into at least a dozen equal sized jars until it gets stinky.

Assuming it is a sugar wash neutral, look up Kiwistiller's novice guide to cuts and use your taste buds to do your choosing for you.

[Saltbush Bill]

that methanol comes off at about 122F

Hello nkelble, let me start by saying that you seem to have been reading and watching the wrong things, there is a lot of substandard advice out there on the net and on Youtube.
You will find that the advice here comes from people who have been playing this game for a loooooong time, hence it is usually right.
On top of that anyone one giving bad advice around here usually gets called out quick smart, so myths and false facts hit the garbage bin pretty quickly.
Until relatively recent times very few pot stills or thumpers that I saw around the forums had thermometers on them, they seem to be a trend started by the commercial hobby still manufacturers in an attempt to add "bling" to increase sales to newbs who are drawn to shiny objects. "surely a still with a thermometer is better than the one for sale without"
The best way to run your still is to use your senses of sight , touch, taste and smell......in short forget the thermometers , they will just make your learning curve steeper and harder. Ignoring the thermometers and watching the output of spirit from yous still will teach you a lot more a lot quicker.
The following link should help you understand why you cant control temp of the boiler contents , and why you cant get all of the methanol out at the beginning or at certain temps.
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/Re ... gMyth.html
For what its worth , sugar washes have little to no Methanol in them right from the beginning, grain and fruit washes are where Methanol comes on the scene.
Somewhere on the forum is a very good write up posted by LWTCS in recent times.....maybe someone else can find that link for you, Ive looked but cant find it

[Yummyrum]

Somewhere on the forum is a very good write up posted by LWTCS in recent times.....maybe someone else can find that link for you, Ive looked but cant find it

This one Salty

viewtopic.php?f=1&p=7704507#p7592753

[Saltbush Bill]

Thanks Yummy that's the one....I just spent half an hour hassling Larry for the link to it
Should have know that the "linkmaster" would know where it was.
A few people suggested it might be good to make it a sticky......could we put it somewhere more easily found with the heading "METHANOL THE FACTS "

[subbrew]

my final wash reading over a course of 3 days was a steady 1.002. The thermometer that came with the kit was exceptionally hard to read and I installed a much more accurate and easier to read one. I have read and seen in videos that methanol comes off at about 122F and Ethanol comes off at about 174F ish. I'm most interested in why I didn't get any output until it was almost at 200 degrees. Thanks for your response!!

How are the thermometers mounted? There is no physical way the vapor was 214F in a non-pressurized system. My guess is you are getting conduction of heat from the metal to the thermometers.

If you insist on having a thermometer, and having an engineering background I understand the desire to have quantitative data, it should be mounted as far from the boiler but still in the vapor stream as you can get it. You want the vapor temp just before condensing as that is what you are collecting.

[JBoozy]

nkelble

195F is perfectly normal for spirits to start flowing. You have probably read that ethanol will evaporate around 173F. That's for pure ethanol, which I hope is not what you are trying to distill. Your first run is mostly water, usually around 10% alcohol. A mixture of water and alcohol has a higher boiling point than just ethanol (173F) and a lower boiling point than just water (212F). If you were to put a thermometer on your thumper the temperature would most likely be in the 180ish range due to the higher concentration of alcohol. I don't use a thumper but that's where mine is on my spirit runs with a 40% alcohol concentration. But there is really no need for one on the thumper. What you collected as far as alcohol percentages go sounds about right too.

As far as thermometers go. I find the one on my still very useful but only for one reason. It lets me know when my still is about to produce. I'm usually doing other things in my still room while I'm waiting for the still to come up to temp. Washing collection vessels, cleaning out the fermenters, peeking out of the blinds in a mild state of paranoia, etc. So being able to glance over at the thermometer to know where I'm at is very helpful. I know when to sit down and start collecting fores. My propane burner sounds like a flame thrower so I can't hear what the still has to say.

I definitely recommend reading through the newbie sections that were recommended in some of the replies.

[BlueSasquatch]

It lets me know when my still is about to produce. I'm usually doing other things in my still room while I'm waiting for the still to come up to temp. Washing collection vessels, cleaning out the fermenters, peeking out of the blinds in a mild state of paranoia, etc. So being able to glance over at the thermometer to know where I'm at is very helpful. I know when to sit down and start collecting fores. My propane burner sounds like a flame thrower so I can't hear what the still has to say.

Oof, been there. few times I've been late enough to the party that my first jar has overflowed. Just fores and early heads but still not ideal. I can usually tell by touch, where the vapor is as it heads to the condenser (I've got a worm and flake) but thats not something I can easily tell from across the room or doing dishes.

[psf]

I read enough on here before I built and decided not to add any thermometers on my boiler or column. I can feel the copper to see where the heat is. I can tell if I'm heating too fast if it sounds like a thunderstorm in the column. I can smell it right before the first drip and I can adjust the heat input based on the output stream.

My first runs I was nervous and hovered and dwelled over everything. stressed my self out. same thing when I ran a thumper for the first time. I remember thinking the heat up time was taken to long and I was building pressure and it was going to blow up. I'm not saying to not actively manage your run. trust the process.

I think that thermometers make you feel better about what is going on until you do it enough to know what to expect. Thermometers have their place in reflux but pot stills don't need em.

[LWTCS]

I read enough on here before I built and decided not to add any thermometers on my boiler or column. I can feel the copper to see where the heat is. I can tell if I'm heating too fast if it sounds like a thunderstorm in the column. I can smell it right before the first drip and I can adjust the heat input based on the output stream.

My first runs I was nervous and hovered and dwelled over everything. stressed my self out. same thing when I ran a thumper for the first time. I remember thinking the heat up time was taken to long and I was building pressure and it was going to blow up. I'm not sayinug to not actively manage your run. trust the process.

I think that thermometers make you feel better about what is going on until you do it enough to know what to expect. Thermometers have their place in reflux but pot stills don't need em.

Goose says ole boys can't read the thermometer or the alcometer in the dark of night.

[Wyododge]

Goose says ole boys can't read the thermometer or the alcometer in the dark of night.

Heck, I can’t read em in full day light…

PSF - Same here. Still in design process, but I don’t plan on having one anywhere on my set up to start. There will be enough going on during my first run to have likely irrelevant data mucking things up further. If I decide I need one I’ll probably just tape one to the exterior of the column below take off under the insulation. BIG IF though.

[psf]

I put cheap aquarium tape thermometers on all my fermentation buckets though except my 55 gallon pickle barrel fermenters. Too thick.

[bluefish_dist]

my final wash reading over a course of 3 days was a steady 1.002. The thermometer that came with the kit was exceptionally hard to read and I installed a much more accurate and easier to read one. I have read and seen in videos that methanol comes off at about 122F and Ethanol comes off at about 174F ish. I'm most interested in why I didn't get any output until it was almost at 200 degrees. Thanks for your response!!

Toss all that information away. It has no bearing on distilling a mix of alcohol and water.

First I am a big believer in using temperature to control a column, BUT the thermometer location in your still is mostly useless. All it will tell you is; 1) is my boiler about to start boiling and producing alcohol, 2) I have got all the alcohol out of the boiler.

Let’s look at this, a mix of alcohol and water boils between 173f and 212f at sea level. That boiling point is related to the % of alcohol. 100% alcohol = 173, 0% = 212. You will find that a 6-10% wort boils about 10-15 deg below the boiling point of water alone. So at around 200f with a fermented wort, your boiler will start boiling. All during the run as the % of alcohol decreases the boiling point will increase. This is why pid controls don’t work for boiler control. When you get all the alcohol out of the wort, you are left with water and it will be 212f.

What this means in a practical sense is, once your thermometer gets close to 200, better have the cooling water on. Then when it reads about 212, your run is done. That’s it, that’s all it does. Another option is paint a black spot on the boiler, then shoot it with a IR temp gun. Will give an idea when it’s going to boil. You can also just put your hand on your riser and you will feel the heat come up as it starts to boil. Also the sound will change.