Specific Gravity, proof gallon quantification of ethanol/gas blends, will it work??
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 8:45 am
I don’t believe a thorough search of the site will get me an answer to my question. I have searched everywhere, literally, and I have found nothing. Likely a stupid question but here it goes. A small bit of background.
I have garnered a TN Alcohol Fuel Plant Permit (well I have the letter from Commish of Sept of a revenue stating they are ready to issue). I will get a federal as well, shortly, maybe, unless the answer to this question is not in my beat interest, then I quit!
TN requires immediate denaturing at exit from condenser. Period! It has been argued with state attorney and the commissioner for two months now, Commish has spoken, he says TCA Title 60 is what it is. So for my pet project, an alternative feedstock AFP with a pet engine/vehicle for Hydrous Ethanol testing….. I need to denat at the end of a worm. TN record keeping is almost nil. Follow Fed Denat rules, keep track of volume produced and used for 3 years. No more than 1000 gal for my permit level. But that goes against the Fed rules big! Fed says collect, test for proof gallons, record, denat later when the ethanol is released from plant or don’t denat and use ethanol to feed plant. Very clear.
Now—— I have to put in a vessel, 2% or greater volume of gasoline whereby the ethanol distillate enters and mixes with the denat immediately. That’s the state rule. I asked “how the hell do I quantify proof gallons before denat, if I have to denat at the worm”?? TN reply- “ not our problem”. So- maybe I’m very confused and likely so/ on the operation of a certified proof hydrometer for alcohol. I have assumed (probably bad) that any solvent or other liquid except water would alter the SG of the distillate such that proof gallon count will be altered. Granted it is only 2-3 percent—— it’s still present! Using graduated cylinders (or scales since I am in the scale business serving the AG community) to measure total volume and then use TTB approved procedure with a proof hydrometer——- well will it be accurate with 2-3% gasoline in the vessel??? I see that TTB indicates high solid testing procedure as a separate process (must remove sugars and solids by secondary distillation), but there won’t be solids.
If I added acetone to ethanol at a rate of 10% by volume, would a proof hydrometer read with accuracy? If anything but an Alcohol was added (benzene, toluene, etc) would it operate properly??
That’s the thing that I can’t wrap my head around. SG of gasoline and ethanol are fairly close (in the .7xx’s. I just envision errors. I need a good chemist here to slap me for stupid or….. confirm my assumption and break my heart. Because else, I don’t see a way to make the state happy with immediate denat and then keep the Fed happy with record keeping.
My understanding is of hydrometers wholly, I.e., comparing a liquid to water. The idea of a calibrated hydrometer gaged got a given absolute (anhydrous ethanol) working in a polluted liquid——- I’m not dumb- sept fo dis one ting—-
I’m busting a Forrest Gump on this. And that’s probably demeaning to Forrest!!
Maybe I need to look up some info on Archimedes???
Wow/ rough first post. All for a combustion engine project/AG feedstock alternative! If it takes a lesson on hydrometers as a whole, then someone smarten me up. Please??? Many thanks in advance.
I have lurked a bit for the last year as my project idea began to take shape. I have searched the forum quite a bit and yielded some great info, some alternative perspectives and seen some character in members- all a good thing.
Best.
#1 ranking noob-
Mike in Memphis.
I have garnered a TN Alcohol Fuel Plant Permit (well I have the letter from Commish of Sept of a revenue stating they are ready to issue). I will get a federal as well, shortly, maybe, unless the answer to this question is not in my beat interest, then I quit!
TN requires immediate denaturing at exit from condenser. Period! It has been argued with state attorney and the commissioner for two months now, Commish has spoken, he says TCA Title 60 is what it is. So for my pet project, an alternative feedstock AFP with a pet engine/vehicle for Hydrous Ethanol testing….. I need to denat at the end of a worm. TN record keeping is almost nil. Follow Fed Denat rules, keep track of volume produced and used for 3 years. No more than 1000 gal for my permit level. But that goes against the Fed rules big! Fed says collect, test for proof gallons, record, denat later when the ethanol is released from plant or don’t denat and use ethanol to feed plant. Very clear.
Now—— I have to put in a vessel, 2% or greater volume of gasoline whereby the ethanol distillate enters and mixes with the denat immediately. That’s the state rule. I asked “how the hell do I quantify proof gallons before denat, if I have to denat at the worm”?? TN reply- “ not our problem”. So- maybe I’m very confused and likely so/ on the operation of a certified proof hydrometer for alcohol. I have assumed (probably bad) that any solvent or other liquid except water would alter the SG of the distillate such that proof gallon count will be altered. Granted it is only 2-3 percent—— it’s still present! Using graduated cylinders (or scales since I am in the scale business serving the AG community) to measure total volume and then use TTB approved procedure with a proof hydrometer——- well will it be accurate with 2-3% gasoline in the vessel??? I see that TTB indicates high solid testing procedure as a separate process (must remove sugars and solids by secondary distillation), but there won’t be solids.
If I added acetone to ethanol at a rate of 10% by volume, would a proof hydrometer read with accuracy? If anything but an Alcohol was added (benzene, toluene, etc) would it operate properly??
That’s the thing that I can’t wrap my head around. SG of gasoline and ethanol are fairly close (in the .7xx’s. I just envision errors. I need a good chemist here to slap me for stupid or….. confirm my assumption and break my heart. Because else, I don’t see a way to make the state happy with immediate denat and then keep the Fed happy with record keeping.
My understanding is of hydrometers wholly, I.e., comparing a liquid to water. The idea of a calibrated hydrometer gaged got a given absolute (anhydrous ethanol) working in a polluted liquid——- I’m not dumb- sept fo dis one ting—-
I’m busting a Forrest Gump on this. And that’s probably demeaning to Forrest!!
Maybe I need to look up some info on Archimedes???
Wow/ rough first post. All for a combustion engine project/AG feedstock alternative! If it takes a lesson on hydrometers as a whole, then someone smarten me up. Please??? Many thanks in advance.
I have lurked a bit for the last year as my project idea began to take shape. I have searched the forum quite a bit and yielded some great info, some alternative perspectives and seen some character in members- all a good thing.
Best.
#1 ranking noob-
Mike in Memphis.