Controller double check

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bcook608
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Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

So after doing some looking around, I decided to bite the bullet and dive in to the electrical world.
I have decided to modify my 5 gal stock pot still to run on an internal submerged element.

according to my math, this setup will generate 1625w of power @ approximately 14.78A draw which should be well within the 20A circuit I plan to use which is protected by a GFCI outlet.

I will be using the following:

Dernord 6500w ULWD Wavy Element

110v on/off switch - I'm going for a more industrial look for the switch

Auber DSPR1 Controller

Multimeter Ammeter/Voltmeter

Auber 40A SSR

Heatsink

10"x7"x4" Junction Box

110v 60mm Cooling fan - x2

I will be wiring everything together by repurposing a 25ft 10/3 extension cord which should give me more than enough wire to work with, plus it has factory connections on each end. I haven't decided if I want to wire direct to the element or give it a little pigtail and plug it into the female end of the cord.

Here is the diagram that I have put together for wiring. I am unfamiliar with the wiring of the DSPR1, but it seemed like the best option to go with. I know I don't NEED the multimeter/Ammeter/volt meter, but I like to have as much info as possible and this gives me multiple frames of reference to ensure I can repeat the process. Please let me know if I don't have things wired up the right way. I have ordered the parts listed above and as they start to show up, I will begin assembly. the layout may change over time, but I want to make sure my research into the wiring of everything has led me to the right conclusions.

controller layout.jpg
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Demy
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Demy »

I just took a quick look because I'm out and about so not complete control. The first observation is that 2 fans ar in e probably too many, I only use 1 which blows inside as the air comes out of a grille. You could use 12v fans if you feel easier to find.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Yummyrum »

It looks OK to me bcook .
You may find that the Ammeter reading tends to jump around a bit on less than high settings due to the bursts of cycles the DSPR1 supplies .

But if you turn it up 100% and read the power reading , you will then be able to use that as a reference as to what power you have as set by the controller % .

I mean , if you quickly dial up 100% and the power meter shows say , 1500W , then when you turn it down to 25%, you know you will have exactly 375w . Way more accurate than that meter will ever show if used on a phase controller .
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Demy wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:22 am I just took a quick look because I'm out and about so not complete control. The first observation is that 2 fans ar in e probably too many, I only use 1 which blows inside as the air comes out of a grille. You could use 12v fans if you feel easier to find.
Thanks for the feedback! I like to over-engineer things so the 2 fans is probably more than what I would need, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
But other than that, does the layout look good? I don't mess around with electrical much
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:36 am It looks OK to me bcook .
You may find that the Ammeter reading tends to jump around a bit on less than high settings due to the bursts of cycles the DSPR1 supplies .

But if you turn it up 100% and read the power reading , you will then be able to use that as a reference as to what power you have as set by the controller % .

I mean , if you quickly dial up 100% and the power meter shows say , 1500W , then when you turn it down to 25%, you know you will have exactly 375w . Way more accurate than that meter will ever show if used on a phase controller .
Thanks Yum!
That was what I gathered from some of the other posts, but I didn't want to have to wire up 2 separate analog meters to get similar readings. And yeah, what you said about figuring exact power using the percentages supplied by the Auber unit is kind of what I had in mind. Plus, I imagine that the meter will also show any jumps or fluctuations in the supplied power as well. Not that I have that problem.

Do you think the Ammeter would have better results with a regular old pot? I'm assuming I'd have to use one in the 200k range for 110v
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Mr Sippy »

You will get more airflow by by placing the fans in parallel- on the same side of the box. By having them in series, as shown, increases static pressure but not airflow. Conceptually. :think: Having them so far apart muddies the waters a bit but putting the fans side by side will give more airflow.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Mr Sippy wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:50 am You will get more airflow by by placing the fans in parallel- on the same side of the box. By having them in series, as shown, increases static pressure but not airflow. Conceptually. :think: Having them so far apart muddies the waters a bit but putting the fans side by side will give more airflow.
I'm not sure what you're saying. One fan will be blowing into the box, while the other will be pulling the air out of the box. They are wired individually, not together.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Yummyrum »

bcook608 wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:44 am
Do you think the Ammeter would have better results with a regular old pot? I'm assuming I'd have to use one in the 200k range for 110v
Yes and no . It ( the ammeter) will give more stable reading on a phase controller . IE , the numbers won’t bounce up/down as much , but the readings will not be accurate . Only true RMS reading meters will give an accurate reading on a chopped up sine-wave from a phase controller .

So pretty much the only time you can truely trust the reading on the ammeter (or power meter) , is when its at 100% power and receiving a constant pure sinewave .

Also add , although I’m sure you have realised it , is that the SSR you have is not able to be controlled by a 200k ( or any other Pot) .

They are a different device called an SSRV .

At the end of the day , it doesn’t really matter how accurate your readings are , so long as you know where it worked ( or not ) last run and you can dial it in again next time around .

Only time accuracy really matters is when you start quoting “ I ran my still at XXX kw power “
In that regard , I would trust your readings over anyone that uses a phase controller …. Because you will know what 100% power was and at what percentage of that you ran at .
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Salt Must Flow »

As mentioned before, the Auber units flash on & off so those amp meters will flicker. I just made a calculator in Microsoft Excel which tells me the power input based on the size of element and the % the controller is set to. No it isn't 100% accurate (electric service isn't perfectly stable), but plenty accurate and it has never been even a hint of an issue for me. Does it even matter what the meter says while doing a stripping run at 100% power? It means nothing to me. If you really think about it, a meter that flickers and is illegible during a spirit run would be absolutely useless considering this is when it is most important to know your power input. If you are mostly interested in seeing your power input accurately, the Still Dragon Controller Kit would work perfectly for this.

I've always used one fan. Two fans would be twice as loud.

The DSPR 400 is well worth every penny. It works as a PID controller as well as a variable power controller. It reads temp in distilling mode in 1/10th degree resolution. It has multiple programmable temp alarms and many other smart functions that can be used. If all you want is a variable power controller, no temp reading and zero bells & whistles then the DSPR1 will be just fine.

This $1.80 power switch will work just fine. I used this switch on all of my controllers. All a power switch needs to do is provide 120V to power the controller.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Mr Sippy »

bcook608 wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:09 am I'm not sure what you're saying
It's a ventilation principle of axial fans; not electrical. If the fans are placed in front of each other (series) static pressure is 2x w/ no change in air flow. If the fans are side by side air flow is 2x but pressure unchanged. Search axial fans serial vs parallel.

At such small scale I imagine it hardly matters. As others said; one fan is enough. But if you want to 'over engineer' you'll get more airflow w fans side by side. I don't see any advantage in heat removal by placing them on either side of the box unless you have restrictive air flow. If they were in parallel you'd double the area of the output grill.

Cheers.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Sailman »

For what I see everything looks to be wired correctly for a 110 volt element but in your parts listing you have a 240 volt element listed. Also in your diagram the power coming in is a 110 volts, if you use a 240 volt element you will not get full use of the elements power.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by StillerBoy »

I have to question why dual fan setup..

The fans you stat you want to get are rated for 24 CFM.. one fan will provide way more air flow required to cool down the SSR, especially on 120V..

I run as SSR on 240V, using one 12V fan with a rating of 13 CFM and setup on a pot so that it can reduce the CFM in half, and at that level of CFM I have no issue with heat build up at full of 240 power for 30 or so.. running a fan on full power without a pot, especially high CFM fans, can become very noisy at times, especially in a small comfind box and/or room..

Plus dual fan with create issues already addressed..

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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Got it!
I'll be switching to a single fan and will be adding a pot to control the speed to reduce potential noise issues.
Sailman wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:47 am For what I see everything looks to be wired correctly for a 110 volt element but in your parts listing you have a 240 volt element listed. Also in your diagram the power coming in is a 110 volts, if you use a 240 volt element you will not get full use of the elements power.
As far as the element is concerned, I know I will only be getting around 1625w out of it (25% capacity @ 110v) but I wanted a large, ULWD element to spread out the heat and have as much surface area as possible. This was the best option I could find that would still let me work within the 15A-20A breaker I will be using depending on the room of the house I decide to run in.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by StillerBoy »

bcook608 wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:18 pm I'll be switching to a single fan and will be adding a pot to control the speed to reduce potential noise issues.
The other point in the installation of the fan, it should position so that the air flow is directed at the heat sink and the heat sink fins allow the air flow through them..

Another point and concern to me is in using a 6500w element on a 120V system with a 15 amp breaker.. the 15 amp breaker will not be strong enough to handle the 1615w, not discounting that most 15 amp breakers are on 12 gauge wire, which will also be past in limit of handling the 1625w..

What I've done on my 120V controller setup with a 1800w element, is to use the dryer plug, which is a 30 amp breaker, with a dryer cord going the control.. and from there only using the 120V phase on to the element.. the reason is that the dryer plug is wired on a 10 gauge which is able to handle all the power requirement.. plus maybe a little more power ability providing the cord for the controller to the boiler is of a 12 gauge high quality cable..

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Re: Controller double check

Post by shadylane »

StillerBoy wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:48 pm

Another point and concern to me is in using a 6500w element on a 120V system with a 15 amp breaker.. the 15 amp breaker will not be strong enough to handle the 1615w, not discounting that most 15 amp breakers are on 12 gauge wire, which will also be past in limit of handling the 1625w..

Not true.
On a 120v circuit, 12 gauge copper wire can handle 1625w easily.
A 20 amp breaker can handle 2400w for 3 hours and is derated 80% to 1920w when used continuously.
A 15 amp breaker is good for 1800w for 3 hours and 1440w continuously.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Well, I'll mount the fan on the bottom blowing up through the fins, then I'll plug it in and see how she goes. If it ends up overpowering the system, maybe I'll have to figure out how to get a dedicated line run, or see if I can get away with a larger breaker on a different circuit.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Salt Must Flow »

bcook608 are you still in the planning stage or did you already buy a bunch of stuff?

The reason I asked is because you can use a different enclosure and have a forward facing controller rather than a top facing controller. Here's a project box I used for my most recent 240V build using the Auber DSPR 400.

I mounted a fan on the top which blows air down directly over the SSR and the air vents out the side. Here's some pics I just took.

Front view. There's a green power indicator light, the DSPR 400, an alarm/light/buzzer and an alarm kill switch.
Controller 01.jpg

The rear has the power in, the power out, a RTD sensor connector and the power on/off switch.
Controller 02.jpg

Side view with a fan guard where the air exits.
Controller 03.jpg

The underside has 4 rubber feet.
Controller 04.jpg

If you are going to make a 120V dedicated controller, it could use a significantly smaller enclosure with a top mounted heatsink and it doesn't need a fan.
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Re: Controller double check

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Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:17 pm bcook608 are you still in the planning stage or did you already buy a bunch of stuff?

The reason I asked is because you can use a different enclosure and have a forward facing controller rather than a top facing controller. Here's a project box I used for my most recent 240V build using the Auber DSPR 400.

I mounted a fan on the top which blows air down directly over the SSR and the air vents out the side. Here's some pics I just took.

Front view. There's a green power indicator light, the DSPR 400, an alarm/light/buzzer and an alarm kill switch.
Controller 01.jpg


The rear has the power in, the power out, a RTD sensor connector and the power on/off switch.
Controller 02.jpg


Side view with a fan guard where the air exits.
Controller 03.jpg


The underside has 4 rubber feet.
Controller 04.jpg


If you are going to make a 120V dedicated controller, it could use a significantly smaller enclosure with a top mounted heatsink and it doesn't need a fan.
That's a nice little setup! I have pretty much everything on the way. But I haven't started assembly yet. I can still lay it out similar to how yours is. I just liked having it the way my diagram shows because it'll likely be sitting on a dresser or countertop and looking down at it would make more sense than trying to look at the front face of it. Once I have all of the parts in front of me, I'm going to experiment with a few different layouts to see what looks best and what should function best with the input I received from this thread.

I think I'll just use this controller for my proof of concept, then if and when I build a 240v version for my big still, I know how to improve upon the design.

I really appreciate everyone's input into this.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by NZChris »

Any power controller that works by constantly switching the power on and off will cause metal fatigue and shorten the life of the element. I've killed two elements by using a cheap PID to control temperature in an oven.
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Re: Controller double check

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NZChris wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:12 pm Any power controller that works by constantly switching the power on and off will cause metal fatigue and shorten the life of the element. I've killed two elements by using a cheap PID to control temperature in an oven.
Are you referring to the DSPR400 or the DSPR1 or both?
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Re: Controller double check

Post by NZChris »

I'm referring to any that do it. I haven't read the specs. on those.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Salt Must Flow »

NZChris wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:43 pm I'm referring to any that do it. I haven't read the specs. on those.
Do you have a citation regarding "metal fatigue" of Ultra Low Watt Density heating elements in a FLUID ENVIRONMENT or are you just teasing us? I mean IF you intend to make a claim, it's best to at least post a citation. Isn't that logical?
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Re: Controller double check

Post by NZChris »

For the life expectancy of a particular element, you would have to get the data from the manufacturer.

If you are going use on/off cycles to control any type of element, you can extend it's life expectancy by reducing the number of cycles, or reducing the voltage, or both. Look up the Centennial Light for an extreme example.

When using a cheap PID, I use an SSR to control the voltage as well so that the switching is not thrashing the element.

The only time I've blown an element during a run was in the early days when I was using a stove type simmerstat. Fortunately, I had two elements so was able to finish the run without going through the rigmarole of installing a new element.

Thermostats and simmerstats both switch a lot less often than a PID. The jug element I was using might be turned on and off three to six times a day when used for it's designed purpose. Put it in a still and control it with a simmerstat or a PID and it goes through years worth of cycles in days or hours, that is why I've taken on board advice I've found on the forum and use an SSR.
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Re: Controller double check

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NZChris wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:04 pm For the life expectancy of a particular element, you would have to get the data from the manufacturer.

If you are going use on/off cycles to control any type of element, you can extend it's life expectancy by reducing the number of cycles, or reducing the voltage, or both. Look up the Centennial Light for an extreme example.

When using a cheap PID, I use an SSR to control the voltage as well so that the switching is not thrashing the element.

The only time I've blown an element during a run was in the early days when I was using a stove type simmerstat. Fortunately, I had two elements so was able to finish the run without going through the rigmarole of installing a new element.

Thermostats and simmerstats both switch a lot less often than a PID. The jug element I was using might be turned on and off three to six times a day when used for it's designed purpose. Put it in a still and control it with a simmerstat or a PID and it goes through years worth of cycles in days or hours, that is why I've taken on board advice I've found on the forum and use an SSR.
So I should be good then because the DSPR1 controls a 40A SSR which feeds the power to the element.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by NZChris »

Correct. :thumbup:
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Re: Controller double check

Post by bcook608 »

Ok cool. Whew, I thought you were saying what I had wasn't going to work. I feel much better about it now
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Re: Controller double check

Post by NZChris »

Before buying any electronics/whatever for distilling, I want to know the theory, then I want to read the specs. of anything that I think might do the job.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by NormandieStill »

I think you might both be a little confused here. While people use the terms interchangeably there are two different devices in question:

SSR = Solid State Relay
SSVR = Solid State Voltage Regulator

An SSR acts like a contactless light switch. The PID is switching it on and off based on a pre-programmed duty cycle. The PID is controlling the average voltage over the duration of the duty cycle, but the element is still seeing either 0v or 120/240v (depending on your supply).

An SSVR has an integrated circuit which also switches the element on and off, but much faster, within the cycles of the AC voltage. Essentially depending on the target voltage (percentage power) it will turn on at a certain point in the waveform and then switch off as the voltage crosses zero, doing this 50 / 60 times per second. The element sees a reduced voltage, but in the form of a truncated wave which is why you get the characteristic buzzing sound (if you remember dimming filament bulbs). That buzzing is from the induced EM causing the element wire to jump which *will* shorten the lifespan compared to only running full tilt.

An SSR will be better than a traditional relay, but unless you are using a transformer to reduce the voltage uniformly while maintaining the sinusoidal wave of the AC, anything you do will shorten the life of the element.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by NZChris »

I can't say I'm surprised. What I use is sold called an SCR by the sellers, which it is not. Simmerstats seem to be, more often than not, sold as thermostats, even though they are not.
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Re: Controller double check

Post by Yummyrum »

Personally , I think the talk of metal fatigue due to cycling is muddying the waters .
OK , I accept that in the case of a simmerstat where the the element reaches full temp for a while , say a minute then cools down for minute then heats up fir a minute , then cools down blaa blaa … sure .

But a DSPR1 , which incidentally isn’t a PID has two modes of controlling the heating cycle .
Time Proportional and Burst Fire mode .

If we select say 25% power in Time proportional mode , the element turns on for 25 full cycles , then off for 75 cycles .
The whole heat cool cycle is 2 seconds @50Hz and less than 2 seconds at 60Hz .

If we select 25% power in Burst fire mode , the element turns on for 1 full cycle and off for 3 cycles .
The heat cool period is less than a 1/10 of a second .

The Burst fire algorithm spreads the on/off cycles as evenly as it can to minimise the amount of time that the element is in either state using the thermal mass of the element to further integrate the changes to almost a perfect steady state of power .

Even in the simple Time proportional mode , due to the thermal mass of the element , it would not be seeing any substantial stress due to expansion and contraction simply because the time period is so small .
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