11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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Salt Must Flow
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11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Short & sweet ... I had a shotgun condenser 2" x 26" (with seven 3/8" ID tubes). It can easily handle 5500W, but cannot handle 11,000W so I've been stripping with only one element. So to use my stripping boiler at its full capacity I decided to make a second shotgun condenser 24" long, linked them together and ran both 5500W elements at 100% power. While the linked shotgun condensers had absolutely no problem knocking down the vapor, well the exiting water was extremely hot and I feared it would exceed the temp limit of my polypropylene tubing.

I suspect the problem is that my water flow rate may be too low. I have been feeding all of my condensers using 1/4" OD polypropylene tubing on my home water pressure. Do you think that using 3/8" OD x 1/4" ID tubing will provide the flow rate needed to not have boiling water exit the linked shotgun condensers at 11000W?

I considered making a 3" shotgun with higher flow inlet/outlet for 11000W stripping runs, but I'd prefer make use of the two shotguns I already have.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by StillerBoy »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:02 pm I have been feeding all of my condensers using 1/4" OD polypropylene tubing on my home water pressure. Do you think that using 3/8" OD x 1/4" ID tubing will provide the flow rate needed to not have boiling water exit the linked shotgun condensers at 11000W?
Base on what it is you expect from the condenser(s), 1/2" intake and outlet would more appropriate. as 3/8" will probably do the task also.. 3/8" is what I use on a 1.5 x 16" with 5 baffles that will handle 4500w easily..

Mars
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by Salt Must Flow »

StillerBoy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:25 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:02 pm I have been feeding all of my condensers using 1/4" OD polypropylene tubing on my home water pressure. Do you think that using 3/8" OD x 1/4" ID tubing will provide the flow rate needed to not have boiling water exit the linked shotgun condensers at 11000W?
Base on what it is you expect from the condenser(s), 1/2" intake and outlet would more appropriate. as 3/8" will probably do the task also.. 3/8" is what I use on a 1.5 x 16" with 5 baffles that will handle 4500w easily..

Mars
When I first started distilling I was using 1/2" PEX red/blue. WAY overkill. Too rigid and not really user friendly. That's why I switched to 1/4' OD tubing and it works perfectly for 5500W no sweat, but just not for 11000W. That's why I'm really oping 3/8" OD tubing will work. It's much more flexible, convenient with push lock fittings and rolls up nicely. I'm trying not to go with 1/2" OD because of the increased cost of of the tubing, the fittings and bulk.

Well I'm leaning towards gambling and see if it works.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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What is the size of the inlet and outlet at the condenser, as just stated a hose size is misguiding the request for an expect respond..

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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by OtisT »

I would suspect that the flow through a 1/4” OD tube is not sufficient for 11,000W. I find my 1/4” OD coils running near the high end of their flow rate to handle 5500w. (These are wound copper coils, so their flow may be a bit less than your tubing.)

I believe 3/8 would be sufficient. The flow difference between the two sizes is uge.

I’m curious, could you measure your current max flow rate and share that info with us? Easy way to do this is to time how long it takes to fill a measuring bucket with water from your condenser’s output.

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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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StillerBoy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:28 pm What is the size of the inlet and outlet at the condenser, as just stated a hose size is misguiding the request for an expect respond..

Mars
Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking for that in your previous reply. The inlet and outlet would be plumbed using John Guest fittings which have at least a 1/4" ID hole, maybe slightly larger. The shotgun condensers have 1/2" brass male NPT nipples soldered to them that are also threaded with 3/8" NPT on the inside too. The holes in the shotgun condensers have no restriction and the holes match the ID of the soldered 1/2" nipples.

Shotgun Thermowell.jpg
58352psku.jpg
58352psku.jpg (15.03 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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OtisT wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:40 pm I would suspect that the flow through a 1/4” OD tube is not sufficient for 11,000W. I find my 1/4” OD coils running near the high end of their flow rate to handle 5500w. (These are wound copper coils, so their flow may be a bit less than your tubing.)

I believe 3/8 would be sufficient. The flow difference between the two sizes is uge.

I’m curious, could you measure your current max flow rate and share that info with us? Easy way to do this is to time how long it takes to fill a measuring bucket with water from your condenser’s output.

Otis
I can certainly do that for you. 1/4" works very well for 5500W with both my reflux coil, my shotgun condenser and a Liebig condenser I used to use. I really love using 1/4" OD tubing, but I must upgrade for stripping runs if I want to use two elements. I'll be able to post that info tomorrow afternoon. I'll list the length of tubing I used too. I'll also test the flow rate with a very short length of tubing, see if the flow rate differs and if so, by how much. Once I get the 3/8" tubing I'll test that flow rate too.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by StillerBoy »

Thanks for pictures and explanation.. I'm with Otis on 3/8" ID to handle the flow rate required.. all the condenser I've built over the yrs have all been fitted to handle 3/8" inlet and outlet and hoses of the same size.. and never had an issue with using more than a 1 - 1.2 per min of water flow to handle 4500w, and those rate are during the late summer months, as my municipal water lines are 7' down and seldom reach 60*F and more times at 50 - 55*F..

Mars
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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OtisT wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:40 pm I believe 3/8 would be sufficient. The flow difference between the two sizes is uge.

Otis
Just to clarify ... are you saying 3/8" OD or 3/8" ID? I'm considering 3/8" OD and 1/4" ID tubing.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by OtisT »

I have a 3/8” copper coil condenser with a needle valve, and full open at full city water pressure it’s flow rate is 12 lpm.

I’m referring to 3/8” OD soft copper tubing.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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OtisT wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 5:11 pm I have a 3/8” copper coil condenser with a needle valve, and full open at full city water pressure it’s flow rate is 12 lpm.

I’m referring to 3/8” OD soft copper tubing.
Ok, thanks for clarification. I'm probably going to pull the trigger on this pretty soon. The wife won't like that because we're likely going to buy an RV/camper tomorrow.

I'll give you an update on the flow rates of 1/4" OD tubing tomorrow. Thanks again!
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by subbrew »

11K watts is 9458297 calories per hour. one calorie will raise one gram of water one degree C. So if you want a X degree C temp rise across your condenser you can calculate the flow needed as 9458297/X. That will give grams per hour. Then to turn it to liters per minute (9458297/X)/1000/60 = liters per minute Example you are starting with 15 C degree water and don't want more than 85 C outlet. So X is 60: (9458297/60)/1000/60 = 2.63 liters per minute.

Depending on wall thickness your 1/4 in OD tubing might have an ID of only 1/8 inch. Since doubling the ID will increase the cross section area by 4 (increases by the square) going to a 1/4 ID tube should give you about 4 times the flow (less if your tubing is thin walled). If 1/4 OD has enough for 5500 watts then 1/4 ID should give you plenty of flow for 11K with some margin.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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subbrew wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:24 pm 11K watts is 9458297 calories per hour. one calorie will raise one gram of water one degree C. So if you want a X degree C temp rise across your condenser you can calculate the flow needed as 9458297/X. That will give grams per hour. Then to turn it to liters per minute (9458297/X)/1000/60 = liters per minute Example you are starting with 15 C degree water and don't want more than 85 C outlet. So X is 60: (9458297/60)/1000/60 = 2.63 liters per minute.

Depending on wall thickness your 1/4 in OD tubing might have an ID of only 1/8 inch. Since doubling the ID will increase the cross section area by 4 (increases by the square) going to a 1/4 ID tube should give you about 4 times the flow (less if your tubing is thin walled). If 1/4 OD has enough for 5500 watts then 1/4 ID should give you plenty of flow for 11K with some margin.
Well holy shit man ... thanks for doing the work you did there. I really appreciate your reply and boosting my confidence in what I thought might have been a gamble. What you've calculated is precisely what I was banking on, like literally. Thank you very much. I've noticed that most here default to large tubing capable of very high flow rates while I've been trying to optimize by using the smallest tubing possible with the highest temp resistant physical properties. Smaller tubing = lower cost of both the tubing as well as the required fittings. I'm looking forward to what I hope will be a success :thumbup:
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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subbrew wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:24 pm
If 1/4 OD has enough for 5500 watts then 1/4 ID should give you plenty of flow for 11K with some margin.
I'd go with 3/8 ID just to be sure. :lol:
The hose, fittings and valves are commonly used for bathroom sinks.
On a side note.
Depending on the boiler, 11kw may be more power than a wash can take without foaming up.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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OtisT wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 5:11 pm I have a 3/8” copper coil condenser with a needle valve, and full open at full city water pressure it’s flow rate is 12 lpm.
I’m referring to 3/8” OD soft copper tubing.
I think you mend to say 3/8" ID, and base on a 3/8" copper pipe, a hose of 3/8" ID x 1/2" OD will fit tightly over the pipe, at least that's what my hoses state on them, held in place with a #4 fuel injection clamp ..
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:42 pm Smaller tubing = lower cost of both the tubing as well as the required fittings.
Not much of a different really, but much more freedom of mind went the larger size is used..

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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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OtisT wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:40 pm I’m curious, could you measure your current max flow rate and share that info with us? Easy way to do this is to time how long it takes to fill a measuring bucket with water from your condenser’s output.

Otis
I just measured and here are the results:

Flow rate through just the tubing:
1/4" OD Tubing 10' long 1 gal in 1 min 5 seconds (3.5 lpm)
1/4" OD Tubing 20' long 1 gal in 1 min 24 seconds (2.7 lpm)

Flow rate through 20' of tubing and through one shotgun condenser didn't show any difference in flow rate likely due to no significant restrictions present.

Flow rate through 20' of tubing and through both shotguns condensers didn't show any difference in flow rate either.

I suspect 3/8" OD x 1/4" ID tubing will do just fine. I really don't want to go bigger than I have to. I always operate on well water pressure and water consumption is not a concern.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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StillerBoy wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:40 am
OtisT wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 5:11 pm I have a 3/8” copper coil condenser with a needle valve, and full open at full city water pressure it’s flow rate is 12 lpm.
I’m referring to 3/8” OD soft copper tubing.
I think you mend to say 3/8" ID, and base on a 3/8" copper pipe, a hose of 3/8" ID x 1/2" OD will fit tightly over the pipe, at least that's what my hoses state on them, held in place with a #4 fuel injection clamp ..
Nope, I was correct in saying 3/8” OD. Sorry to confuse by saying pipe first, but I am talking about soft copper tubing. 3/8” OD. Here is a link to that coil and the flow stats. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=81513

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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by Shine_Dad »

subbrew wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:24 pm 11K watts is 9458297 calories per hour. one calorie will raise one gram of water one degree C. So if you want a X degree C temp rise across your condenser you can calculate the flow needed as 9458297/X. That will give grams per hour. Then to turn it to liters per minute (9458297/X)/1000/60 = liters per minute Example you are starting with 15 C degree water and don't want more than 85 C outlet. So X is 60: (9458297/60)/1000/60 = 2.63 liters per minute.

Depending on wall thickness your 1/4 in OD tubing might have an ID of only 1/8 inch. Since doubling the ID will increase the cross section area by 4 (increases by the square) going to a 1/4 ID tube should give you about 4 times the flow (less if your tubing is thin walled). If 1/4 OD has enough for 5500 watts then 1/4 ID should give you plenty of flow for 11K with some margin.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Thank you very much for everyone's previous input. Today I finally upgraded one of my shotgun condenser with 3/8" OD Polypropylene tubing and fittings.

The flow rate through 20' of 3/8" tubing, through a 3/8" needle valve, through the shotgun condenser and another 20' of tubing was 4 min 13 seconds 1.1 848 gpm (4.489 lpm). 5 gal in 4 min 13 seconds.

With the needle valve removed, the flow rate was 1.4085 gpm (5.332 lpm). 5 gal in 3 min 33 seconds.

I haven't tested this setup stripping at 1100W yet, but I intend to do this soon. I'll post back on flow rate as well as the temp of the exiting water and the product temp just for fun. The 3/8" needle valve has very smooth precision control of the flow rate. This new setup should be a real pleasure to operate.

When I received the 100' of tubing it was wound in a pretty small coil and when unpacked it was like a spring. I filled a keg/kettle with water and heated it to 180F. I plumbed the tubing the drain valve and opened it up. I laid the tubing out straight allowing hot water to flow through and that easily softened the tubing. I filled the kettle with cold water and let that run through too. After doing this I was able to wind the tubing into a larger, easier and more manageable coil so I could hang it on the wall.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:08 pm

The flow rate through 20' of 3/8" tubing, through a 3/8" needle valve, through the shotgun condenser and another 20' of tubing was 4 min 13 seconds 1.1858 gpm (4.489 lpm). It took 4 min 13 seconds to fill a bucket to the 5 gal mark.

With the needle valve removed, the flow rate was 1.4085 gpm (5.332 lpm).
Salt , I’m not feeling too well today but there looks something funny with your conversions
The gpm went down and the lpm went up :ewink:

Hope the modification gets you to where you want
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Yummyrum wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:11 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:08 pm

The flow rate through 20' of 3/8" tubing, through a 3/8" needle valve, through the shotgun condenser and another 20' of tubing was 4 min 13 seconds 1.1858 gpm (4.489 lpm). It took 4 min 13 seconds to fill a bucket to the 5 gal mark.

With the needle valve removed, the flow rate was 1.4085 gpm (5.332 lpm).
Salt , I’m not feeling too well today but there looks something funny with your conversions
The gpm went down and the lpm went up :ewink:

Hope the modification gets you to where you want
Thanks, I corrected it.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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I just tested the the 3/8" Polypropylene tubing with water in the boiler. It had absolutely no problem handling 1100W and the flow needed turned way down using the needle valve. I monitored the temp of the exiting water and adjusted the flow until the temp was 170F and the distillate was still coming out cold. Online it says 180F is max temp for Polypropylene, but I assume that's max working temp.

Next time I do a stripping run I'll have more info regarding water temp, flow rate and takeoff rate, but this was a success. I'll only use this shotgun & 3/8" tubing for stripping runs, but this upgrade will cut heatup time and stripping time in half.
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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

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Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:48 am I just tested the the 3/8" Polypropylene tubing with water in the boiler. It had absolutely no problem handling 1100W and the flow needed turned way down using the needle valve. I monitored the temp of the exiting water and adjusted the flow until the temp was 170F and the distillate was still coming out cold.
If I read it correctly, it was just water in the boiler.. if so, then you will need less water flow yet, due to the stripping run temp are much lower than boiling water.. will be interesting how much less water flow it will required and shotgun condenser are the best for stripping in saving time and water.. I like my distillate on a stripping run to be about 75 - 80*F at the spout..

A side note.. you didn't have distillate, you had distilled water..

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Re: 11,000W Stripping With Shotgun Condenser Question

Post by Salt Must Flow »

StillerBoy wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:37 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:48 am I just tested the the 3/8" Polypropylene tubing with water in the boiler. It had absolutely no problem handling 1100W and the flow needed turned way down using the needle valve. I monitored the temp of the exiting water and adjusted the flow until the temp was 170F and the distillate was still coming out cold.
If I read it correctly, it was just water in the boiler.. if so, then you will need less water flow yet, due to the stripping run temp are much lower than boiling water.. will be interesting how much less water flow it will required and shotgun condenser are the best for stripping in saving time and water.. I like my distillate on a stripping run to be about 75 - 80*F at the spout..

A side note.. you didn't have distillate, you had distilled water..

Mars
Yeah it was just a test with water in the boiler. I know it wasn't technically "distillate", but I had a hard time calling it 'product' when it was just water :lol:

I will do a stripping run to test it and report back soon, but I know it will work great after testing with water. 1/4" OD tubing just didn't provide enough flow for 11000W.
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