Interesting article "Boil the yeast" nutrient

[Demy]

I came across this interesting article, although we know some things the article digs more deeply and improves the technique.

https://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php ... -nutrient/

[MereCashmere]

This is awesome.

Unfortunately it’s another example of the hive mind here at HD, and I myself have fallen prey to it in this instance. I’ve been blindly boiling yeast since I started in this hobby.

I think I’ll just stick to Vegemite as the energy and time spent autolysing yeast doesn’t seem worth the squeeze; but I’m glad to know I’ll save a few cents on yeast!!

Thanks for the great read Demy

[Salt Must Flow]

The article mentions a method using Sous Vide to set a water bath to 122F for 24 hrs. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid & ring and let sit in 122F water bath for 24 hrs. That's easy.

The article says you could also autoclave the yeast for 10min then cool cool it. That's easier and quicker than making simple syrup. Just for those that don't know, an autoclave is the exact same thing as a pressure cooker (at 15 psi) for 10 min. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid (ring loose), pressure cook for 10 min at 15 psi then cool it.

Thanks Denny, I saved that info.

[jonnys_spirit]

I think autoclaving would denature the enzymes according to the article so you'd need to first autolyse @ 122 for 24h then autoclave to preserve it in a sterile environment. Thi si show I'm reading this..

I'll definitely try this with a sousvide then autoclave to seal and preserve some small canning jars. DIY Fermaid O would be pretty nice to have around if this is actually accurate since any ferment produces an excess of this stuff..

Cheers!
-j

[OtisT]

Unfortunately it’s another example of the hive mind here at HD, and I myself have fallen prey to it in this instance. I’ve been blindly boiling yeast since I started in this hobby

What hive mind? I’ve not seen many people write that boiled yeast is the only nutrient needed for all ferments. Not that people have not tried it or a recipe or two calls for it, but I’ve certainly not seen any hive mind consensus. Otis

[MereCashmere]

Unfortunately it’s another example of the hive mind here at HD, and I myself have fallen prey to it in this instance. I’ve been blindly boiling yeast since I started in this hobby

What hive mind? I’ve not seen many people write that boiled yeast is the only nutrient needed for all ferments. Not that people have not tried it or a recipe or two calls for it, but I’ve certainly not seen any hive mind consensus. Otis

I mean, comeon Otis did you even read my comment or did you just see a word that you didn’t like and feel the need to comment?

I never stated that there is any sort of “consensus” on boiled yeast nute as the ONLY nutrient.

I simply inferredthat there is a hivemind consensus of boiled yeast as a WORTHY nutrient, which this article clearly states isn’t true.

If you’d like to see proof of the hive mind, even though I KNOW you’ve been around long enough to see, “the search function is your friend”. Search Boiled Yeast to see it.

If you’d like to argue you’re welcome to my DMs.

[MereCashmere]

The article mentions a method using Sous Vide to set a water bath to 122F for 24 hrs. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid & ring and let sit in 122F water bath for 24 hrs. That's easy.

The article says you could also autoclave the yeast for 10min then cool cool it. That's easier and quicker than making simple syrup. Just for those that don't know, an autoclave is the exact same thing as a pressure cooker (at 15 psi) for 10 min. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid (ring loose), pressure cook for 10 min at 15 psi then cool it.

Thanks Denny, I saved that info.

Haha I think you might want to re read the article; there’s no mention of autoclaveing anything for ten minutes. Not to mention the other steps you left out of your assessment, I.e. washing the yeast, dehydration, harvesting etc. that’s certainly not as easy as a simple syrup

[OtisT]

Unfortunately it’s another example of the hive mind here at HD, and I myself have fallen prey to it in this instance. I’ve been blindly boiling yeast since I started in this hobby

What hive mind? I’ve not seen many people write that boiled yeast is the only nutrient needed for all ferments. Not that people have not tried it or a recipe or two calls for it, but I’ve certainly not seen any hive mind consensus. Otis

You are correct in thinking there’s no consensus saying it’s the ONLY nutrient needed; but in fact that’s not at all what I said

However, there IS ahivemind consensus that simply boiling yeast is sufficient to use it as a worthy nutrient; which this article clearly stated isn’t the case.

If you’d like proof, Search function is your friend! Search “boiled yeast” to see the literal hive mind in action dude

Dude. Search for “know-it-all” and you will find a lot of hits too. That does not mean we are all know-it-alls. Just a few.

Lesson learned. I’m done feeding the troll.

[shadylane]

I simply inferredthat there is a hivemind consensus of boiled yeast as a WORTHY nutrient, which this article clearly states isn’t true.

That's not what the article said.
Here's a quote from the article about boiling yeast.

"So can spent yeast be used as a nutrient? Of course it can"

[NormandieStill]

I simply inferredthat there is a hivemind consensus of boiled yeast as a WORTHY nutrient, which this article clearly states isn’t true.

That's not what the article said.
Here's a quote from the article about boiling yeast.

" The second claim is that boiling the yeast will sterilize the yeast and release the nutrients. But is this claim true?

Answer: Yes, mostly"

It then went on to say that while it will sterilize the yeast and break them down, it won't transform proteins into amino acids or release bound minerals.

[shadylane]

That's true. It takes more than just spent yeast for nutrients.
Personally, I don't use the worn out yeast from trub.
I murder fresh yeast instead when making a yeast bomb.

I am going to try going the Sous Vide idea the author recommended to see if it makes a difference.

[Saltbush Bill]

QUOTE "So can spent yeast be used as a nutrient? Of course it can – simply boiling some yeast as the letter writer suggested will provide some useful nutrients for the yeast. It won’t be sufficient to support the fermentation of something challenging like a traditional mead or sugar wash – but it will provide more than a simple nutrient like DAP."

How much more do you really need ?

[jonnys_spirit]

I would agree that my impression of the general consensus around here is that spent boiled trub is a nutrient but certainly not the best option. If this article is accurate then it’s good info to have and worthwhile experimenting with that breaking spent trub down into amino’s (by use of protease enzymes which btw are highly available in similar koji ferment protocols) - then either dehydrating or canning like SMF suggests for use later.

This all sounds reasonable to me and a great resource for cheap and easy high quality uncomplicated readily available nutrient that’s shelf stable.

I’d suggest adding a bit of koji rice to the cleaned trub before the 122*F ferment (i use a small temp controlled bread proofer for this kind of thing). The koji rice will bump the protease enzyme available to accelerate breaking down the proteins into amino acids.

You can always order Fermaid O but similar diy product canned in a slurry form is definitely easier to keep stocked and doesn’t get all clumpy.

Cheers to all!
-jonny

[MereCashmere]

Unfortunately it’s another example of the hive mind here at HD, and I myself have fallen prey to it in this instance. I’ve been blindly boiling yeast since I started in this hobby

What hive mind? I’ve not seen many people write that boiled yeast is the only nutrient needed for all ferments. Not that people have not tried it or a recipe or two calls for it, but I’ve certainly not seen any hive mind consensus. Otis

You are correct in thinking there’s no consensus saying it’s the ONLY nutrient needed; but in fact that’s not at all what I said

However, there IS ahivemind consensus that simply boiling yeast is sufficient to use it as a worthy nutrient; which this article clearly stated isn’t the case.

If you’d like proof, Search function is your friend! Search “boiled yeast” to see the literal hive mind in action dude

Dude. Search for “know-it-all” and you will find a lot of hits too. That does not mean we are all know-it-alls. Just a few.

Lesson learned. I’m done feeding the troll.

Troll away Otis, I’ve been had from a veteran HD troll himself! Now I know….

[Salt Must Flow]

The article mentions a method using Sous Vide to set a water bath to 122F for 24 hrs. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid & ring and let sit in 122F water bath for 24 hrs. That's easy.

The article says you could also autoclave the yeast for 10min then cool cool it. That's easier and quicker than making simple syrup. Just for those that don't know, an autoclave is the exact same thing as a pressure cooker (at 15 psi) for 10 min. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid (ring loose), pressure cook for 10 min at 15 psi then cool it.

Thanks Denny, I saved that info.

Haha I think you might want to re read the article; there’s no mention of autoclaveing anything for ten minutes. Not to mention the other steps you left out of your assessment, I.e. washing the yeast, dehydration, harvesting etc. that’s certainly not as easy as a simple syrup

Haha ... no Perhaps you should re read the article. The article clearly states exactly this:

There is a way to get more nutrients out of spent yeast – autolysis. This is how nutrients like Fermaid O (and Marmite/Vegimite, for that matter) are made.

Notice that hyperlink for 'autolysis'? Click on that and it takes you to a page that is titled:

A Simple and Rapid Protocol for Producing Yeast Extract from Saccharomyces cerevisiae Suitable for Preparing Bacterial Culture Media

Now if you read further down about the process you'll see exactly this:

Preparation of the yeast extract

Aqueoussuspension of yeast cells was prepared by adding 500 g of baker’s yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) to 2 L of deionized water (milli-Q water). The prepared suspension was autoclaved at 115 °C for 10 min followed by fast cooling on ice.

So yes, that's certainly easier than making simple syrup wouldn't you say? It's simple and rapid.

I believe you are assuming that it is required to remove insoluble cellcontents to further refine it into a yeast extract product like Marmite/Vegimite. No, it is not.

Apparently the process of breaking down the cells to release the most amount of available nutrients requires a combination of temp vs time. Sous Vide is significantly lower temp (122F) and requires significantly more time (24 hrs). Autoclaves/pressure cookers at 15 psi is 250F so it only requires 10 minutes. The process is identical to pasteurization (Sous Vide) and sterilization (autoclave/pressure cooker). For our use, no one cares about separating insoluble particulates from the soluble. No one cares about dehydrating the soluble extract. We can however take advantage of the fact that the process effectively cans/preserves the yeast for long term shelf life.

[MereCashmere]

The article mentions a method using Sous Vide to set a water bath to 122F for 24 hrs. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid & ring and let sit in 122F water bath for 24 hrs. That's easy.

The article says you could also autoclave the yeast for 10min then cool cool it. That's easier and quicker than making simple syrup. Just for those that don't know, an autoclave is the exact same thing as a pressure cooker (at 15 psi) for 10 min. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid (ring loose), pressure cook for 10 min at 15 psi then cool it.

Thanks Denny, I saved that info.

Haha I think you might want to re read the article; there’s no mention of autoclaveing anything for ten minutes. Not to mention the other steps you left out of your assessment, I.e. washing the yeast, dehydration, harvesting etc. that’s certainly not as easy as a simple syrup

Haha ... no Perhaps you should re read the article. The article clearly states exactly this:

There is a way to get more nutrients out of spent yeast – autolysis. This is how nutrients like Fermaid O (and Marmite/Vegimite, for that matter) are made.

Notice that hyperlink for 'autolysis'? Click on that and it takes you to a page that is titled:

A Simple and Rapid Protocol for Producing Yeast Extract from Saccharomyces cerevisiae Suitable for Preparing Bacterial Culture Media

Now if you read further down about the process you'll see exactly this:

Preparation of the yeast extract

Aqueoussuspension of yeast cells was prepared by adding 500 g of baker’s yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) to 2 L of deionized water (milli-Q water). The prepared suspension was autoclaved at 115 °C for 10 min followed by fast cooling on ice.

So yes, that's certainly easier than making simple syrup wouldn't you say? It's simple and rapid.

I believe you are assuming that it is required to remove insoluble cellcontents to further refine it into a yeast extract product like Marmite/Vegimite. No, it is not.

Apparently the process of breaking down the cells to release the most amount of available nutrients requires a combination of temp vs time. Sous Vide is significantly lower temp (122F) and requires significantly more time (24 hrs). Autoclaves/pressure cookers at 15 psi is 250F so it only requires 10 minutes. The process is identical to pasteurization (Sous Vide) and sterilization (autoclave/pressure cooker). For our use, no one cares about separating insoluble particulates from the soluble. No one cares about dehydrating the soluble extract. We can however take advantage of the fact that the process effectively cans/preserves the yeast for long term shelf life.

So I stated that the original article makes no mention of autoclaving anything for ten minutes, you say I’m wrong, then prove me right by stating that it in fact LINKS TO A SEPARATE ARTICLE where they discuss it? Salt I thought you of all people would be able to admit when you were wrong.

When the hell did this site become such a den of trolls? I’m done with this thread man people just want to argue.

[Salt Must Flow]

The article mentions a method using Sous Vide to set a water bath to 122F for 24 hrs. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid & ring and let sit in 122F water bath for 24 hrs. That's easy.

The article says you could also autoclave the yeast for 10min then cool cool it. That's easier and quicker than making simple syrup. Just for those that don't know, an autoclave is the exact same thing as a pressure cooker (at 15 psi) for 10 min. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid (ring loose), pressure cook for 10 min at 15 psi then cool it.

Thanks Denny, I saved that info.

Haha I think you might want to re read the article; there’s no mention of autoclaveing anything for ten minutes. Not to mention the other steps you left out of your assessment, I.e. washing the yeast, dehydration, harvesting etc. that’s certainly not as easy as a simple syrup

Haha ... no Perhaps you should re read the article. The article clearly states exactly this:

There is a way to get more nutrients out of spent yeast – autolysis. This is how nutrients like Fermaid O (and Marmite/Vegimite, for that matter) are made.

Notice that hyperlink for 'autolysis'? Click on that and it takes you to a page that is titled:

A Simple and Rapid Protocol for Producing Yeast Extract from Saccharomyces cerevisiae Suitable for Preparing Bacterial Culture Media

Now if you read further down about the process you'll see exactly this:

Preparation of the yeast extract

Aqueoussuspension of yeast cells was prepared by adding 500 g of baker’s yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) to 2 L of deionized water (milli-Q water). The prepared suspension was autoclaved at 115 °C for 10 min followed by fast cooling on ice.

So yes, that's certainly easier than making simple syrup wouldn't you say? It's simple and rapid.

I believe you are assuming that it is required to remove insoluble cellcontents to further refine it into a yeast extract product like Marmite/Vegimite. No, it is not.

Apparently the process of breaking down the cells to release the most amount of available nutrients requires a combination of temp vs time. Sous Vide is significantly lower temp (122F) and requires significantly more time (24 hrs). Autoclaves/pressure cookers at 15 psi is 250F so it only requires 10 minutes. The process is identical to pasteurization (Sous Vide) and sterilization (autoclave/pressure cooker). For our use, no one cares about separating insoluble particulates from the soluble. No one cares about dehydrating the soluble extract. We can however take advantage of the fact that the process effectively cans/preserves the yeast for long term shelf life.

So I stated that the original article makes no mention of autoclaving anything for ten minutes, you say I’m wrong, then prove me right by stating that it in fact LINKS TO A SEPARATE ARTICLE where they discuss it? Salt I thought you of all people would be able to admit when you were wrong.

When the hell did this site become such a den of trolls? I’m done with this thread man people just want to argue.

Settle down now. I came back at you with the same energy you came at me. Did you click on that link in the original article for 'autolysis'? It takes you to this page which outlines the procedure which I quoted word for word.

I just noticed that previously jonnys_spirits said

autoclaving would denature the enzymes according to the article so you'd need to first autolyse @ 122 for 24h then autoclave to preserve it.

That may very well be true, but that is not what you were saying previously. That is why I quoted both the article, the link in the article, the page the article linked to as well as the process that page outlined. If autoclave/pressure cooking does denature the enzymes, the Sous Vide method would be ideal, but may also pasteurize it on its own so autoclaving/pressure cooking may not be required. I'll have to look up pasteurizing temp vs time and see if that is viable. If not, after 24 hrs, just crank up the temp and do a quick pasteurization or autoclave to preserve.

[jonnys_spirit]

I just googled up a couple articles and there are some different methods to break the proteins down into amino acids to maximize various nutrients. Sorry I didn't save the links but there looked to be quite a few studies published. Not too concerned with the particular article originally published since there wasn't much support for their suppositions but some further research does bear some fruit.

Autoclaving was one method and there were some others using enzymes and other methods using acids... For my money the 122*F'ish / enzyme method is easy in the bread proofer then can a few jars for next sugar run which is pretty much never for me...

Anyway worth some additional study, research, and experimentation...

Fermaid O isn't the cheapest additive but it's very useful in low nutrient situations like sugar washes, meads, and eg; agave washes - maybe some others - wine must can use a SNA schedule to prevent H2S and for a stronger ferment...

Cheers!
-jonny

[shadylane]

When the hell did this site become such a den of trolls? I’m done with this thread man people just want to argue.

The site isn't a den of trolls.
The folks here like to share information and compare opinions.

The author point's out the disadvantage of boiling yeast, because the high temp denatures enzymes.
If we murder the yeast at a lower temp, the enzymes will be able to break down the yeast better.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Amino acids are also know as FAN, Free Amino Nitrate. It's what DAP (diammonium phosphate) is adding as a nutrient. DAP is inorganic, whereas yeast would be organic. It would change the chemistry of what comes out at the end - meaning flavor. How it would effect the spirit I have no idea.

Autolysis of yeast would also yield another benefit - esters and ester precursors (Amino acids). For ester production we say to let the yeast autolyse with a long ferment. As the cells die they would open up and release its contents, including esters, amino acids, and higher alcohols. This method would change when those esters are available. If available during fermentation they would likely be absorbed by the yeast and used to become sterols to build cell walls. This would make them unavailable for aroma/flavor purposes.

There also could be a way of doing this during mashing if you include a protein rest. Barley has enzymes for pyrolysis (protein breakdown) will have the same effect, though maybe not to the same degree depending on the enzymes.

Also does everyone own an autoclave except me? Sous vide would be less expensive to buy.

[NormandieStill]

Amino acids are also know as FAN, Free Amino Nitrate. It's what DAP (diammonium phosphate) is adding as a nutrient. DAP is inorganic, whereas yeast would be organic.

I don't think this is right. Organic versus inorganic when it comes to chemistry has nothing to do with the source, but to do with the type of chemistry. Amino acids provide the building blocks for the proteins that the yeast need to make in order to replicate and to live. DAP is not a replacement for amino acids.

[Broken Jug]

Demy thank you for posting this.

Despite some of the arguing, I found this post very informative.

Thanks again Demy

[OtisT]

That's true. It takes more than just spent yeast for nutrients.
Personally, I don't use the worn out yeast from trub.
I murder fresh yeast instead when making a yeast bomb.

I am going to try going the Sous Vide idea the author recommended to see if it makes a difference.

I can’t wait to hear your results on this Shadylane. I hope your test is with your sugar shine. Otis

[Demy]

Demy thank you for posting this.

Despite some of the arguing, I found this post very informative.

Thanks again Demy

It's a pleasure to share, I thought it might be useful

[Demy]

I thought about it but times change enormously, the protein rest would last 24 hours

[shadylane]

The article mentions a method using Sous Vide to set a water bath to 122F for 24 hrs. Add water to jar, add yeast to jar, mix, install lid & ring and let sit in 122F water bath for 24 hrs.

Just guessing.
I'm not convinced 122f is hot enough to kill bakers yeast.
I'm thinking the yeast will rehydrate and then starve to death.
There by using up the nutrients I murdered the yeast for.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

[/quote]

Amino acids are also know as FAN, Free Amino Nitrate. It's what DAP (diammonium phosphate) is adding as a nutrient. DAP is inorganic, whereas yeast would be organic.

I don't think this is right. Organic versus inorganic when it comes to chemistry has nothing to do with the source, but to do with the type of chemistry.

When I was referring to organic vs non-organic I was referring to the chemistry. DAP is produced synthetically. Byproducts of yeast would be organic.

Amino acids provide the building blocks for the proteins that the yeast need to make in order to replicate and to live. DAP is not a replacement for amino acids.

Yeast has many metabolic pathways for amino acids and precursors. Simply stating that amino acids are used for building proteins isn't understanding the wider range of yeast metabolism. DAP provides nutrients that allow yeast to produce its own amino acids, proteins, and other compounds. DAP is an amino acid supplement/replacement for FAN deficient wort.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ro ... s-with.png

Many of the outcomes of the metabolism of amino acids aren't proteins. The one step - Acetyl CoA (Coenzyme A) is responsible for ester production. It uses fatty amino acids to produce esters that end up making sterols that make up the cell walls of the yeast cell. It's not a protein. Can amino acids make proteins? Yes, but not always.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_amino_nitrogen
https://www.brewersjournal.info/free-amino-nitrogen/
https://homebrewanswers.com/yeast-nutrient-use/
https://beerandbrewing.com/what-exactly ... -nutrient/

I thought about it but times change enormously, the protein rest would last 24 hours

Not necessarily. The amount of enzymes available and the conditions would be different. The enzymes inside a yeast cell are limited in number. If there were too many they would eat the cell alive. There's balance between the builder processes/enzymes and the ones that breakdown the cells. By introducing a large number of them from the grain it will upset this balance. I've never tried it but I don't believe it would take very long to break the yeast cells apart.

[The Baker]

Demy thank you for posting this.

Despite some of the arguing, I found this post very informative.

Thanks again Demy

Demy sends good stuff.

Geoff

[NormandieStill]

When I was referring to organic vs non-organic I was referring to the chemistry. DAP is produced synthetically. Byproducts of yeast would be organic.

Organic chemistry is the branch of chemistry concerned with (in general) the synthesis of carbon-based molecules. The reagants and catalysst do not have to have come from living sources. Organic chemistry can be synthetic (in industrial processes it often is) or biological.

I would suspect that the wider variety of molecules in yeast extract compared to DAP would be useful to yeast. Essentially it would mean that certain
metabolic pathways could be skipped which is essentially an efficiency gain, although I don't know exactly how muchof a gain because that would depend on the negative feedback loops within the yeast which allow it to react to chemical concentrations.

Amino acids provide the building blocks for the proteins that the yeast need to make in order to replicate and to live. DAP is not a replacement for amino acids.

Yeast has many metabolic pathways for amino acids and precursors. Simply stating that amino acids are used for building proteins isn't understanding the wider range of yeast metabolism. DAP provides nutrients that allow yeast to produce its own amino acids, proteins, and other compounds. DAP is an amino acid supplement/replacement for FAN deficient wort.

OK. While I still suspect that a ready supply of amino acids will be more useful to the yeast than biologically available nitrogen, I had forgotten that most micro-organisms are capable of making all of their own amino acids.

[NZChris]

I feel sorry for those who don't have Vegemite in their pantry. The energy and effort of breaking down yeast to get those nutrients isn't worth doing it yourself unless you are needing industrial quantities, or can't buy it off the shelf.

I've been using Vegemite for distilled products for well over thirty years.