Sugar Shock - Now what?

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MonkeyRumKing
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Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

Hi All,
I am sorry if this topic/answer is out there somewhere. I've been looking for about an hour now, and I can't find an answer and I desperately need some quick help.

I had a 5 gallon (20 Liter) batch of Buccaneer Bob's wash going. I followed the recipe and instructions exactly. Everything was going great. My molasses was fermenting for about 3 days and it came time to add the sugar on day 3 (just now). I just started to pour the sugar in after stirring a little to knock loose any suspended CO2 and the first cup of sugar sent this wash into volcano mode. I was completely surprised by this since the wash never foamed up during the first 3 days. All I had was constant fizzing like a glass of Pepsi after the foam dissipates. After the volcano blew, I waited for the "lava flow" to subside and there was still about 60 - 80% of my wash left. I immediately added the remaining sugar but now it appears that there is zero activity. The fizzing never started again and when I stir it, it doesn't fizz or foam. My thought is that the first ingredient to escape out of the bucket was the yeast. Can I just pitch more yeast? Is this wash shot? I don't want to put more ingredients/time into it if there's not much hope of a good result. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
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NZChris
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by NZChris »

What is the SG?
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

Just now it was 1.108 (corrected). It was 1.106 at 80 degrees and my hydrometer is calibrated at 60 degrees.
This morning it was 1.061 (corrected).
The OG Friday night was 1.105 (corrected).

Like I said, I just dumped 5.5 lbs of sugar into it, so I expected it to go back up. I do see some fizzing again, so I think that's a good sign, but what do I know, this is my first molasses wash and only my second wash overall (did BW sugar wash for my sacrificial run).

Thanks so much for any advice you can offer.
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NZChris
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by NZChris »

As long as it keeps dropping it's ok. Keep an eye on pH.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

MonkeyRumKing wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:33 pm I just started to pour the sugar in after stirring a little to knock loose any suspended CO2 and the first cup of sugar sent this wash into volcano mode. I was completely surprised by this
Thats quite normal any time that you add powder or granular type ingredient to a fermenting wash.......Suggest you stir more vigorously next time before making the addition......also add very slowly to begin with and watch out for any sign of an eruption.
MonkeyRumKing wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:33 pm My thought is that the first ingredient to escape out of the bucket was the yeast.
I doubt very much that you lost all of the yeast......just be patient and give it some time to get going again.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the advice. So, for now, no need to add more yeast as long as the SG keeps dropping? Again, thank you!
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Personally I couldn't care less about gravity readings......whats does it look like ....is it fermenting again.....is it fizzing on the surface.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:40 pm Personally I couldn't care less about gravity readings......whats does it look like ....is it fermenting again.....is it fizzing on the surface.
Hey Bill, yes, It is fizzing on the surface again.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

That's what you want to see :thumbup: Now dip a finger in.....have a taste ....remember that taste.........do the same in 4 or 5 days......learn to use your senses.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

NZChris and Saltbush Bill, I was freaking out last night when this happened. You guys helped me so much! I cannot thank you enough. I will absolutely pay this forward. Hopefully someday I know enough to be able to help people like you guys helped me. Thank you!
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by 8Ball »

Great post. You did some searching on your own, needed a little help to get you back on track, and you got it from a couple of the most knowledgable members here — all done in a friendly and matter of fact manner. Good luck with this ferment and please post back with your results, especially after you have it aged & you pour a couple fingers of it!
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by shadylane »

MonkeyRumKing wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:12 pm
...this is my first molasses wash and only my second wash overall (did BW sugar wash for my sacrificial run).

My 2 cents worth, Buccaneer Bob's "is what it is" :oops:
This is a high gravity, low nutrient, unbuffered rum wash and because of that.
It's going to have higher than average drama and stall well before it can finish dry.
That and you have to open an outside pdf to see it.

The next time you want to make rum.
I'd recommend PUGIDOGS or some of the other options :ewink:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5994
Last edited by shadylane on Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by Yonder »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:10 pm That's what you want to see :thumbup: Now dip a finger in.....have a taste ....remember that taste.........do the same in 4 or 5 days......learn to use your senses.
There be great advice from a pro. Start a wash and dip your finger in it, sweet ain’t it? Come back in a few days an do the same. Should give a real pucker if the the yeast worked off the sugars. Don’t stick ya head in the bucket an inhale to see if it smells like alcohol! Watch your pH, yeasties don’t like a 3.2 wash. Get some oyster shell for chickens from the feed store (or Amazon if you’re a city boy), wrap a a handful in cheese cloth tie it off and hang it in the wash (not at the bottom of the grain bed, won’t do you no good buried). Don’t be in a rush, if you want fast likker go to the store, else be patient and let things work. (Hand damn the guy what incented smell check)
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

You guys rock! I tasted it, it was sweet. I plan to taste it again tomorrow (Saturday) based on what Bill suggested. I appreciate the help everyone. I will report back on how it went.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by Demy »

You solved it so it's ok. The reason for the foam could be that the sugar grains created nucleation points for the co2, just my thought.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

Hi guys. Here's an update:
PH is at 4.54. SG is at 1.058. This wash is supposed to come out at 14% ABV per Buccaneer Bob. The directions say to ferment out the molasses for three days and then add the sugar. So here's my next question:
Molasses OG was 1.105
SG right before adding sugar was 1.060.
After adding the sugar, SG went to 1.108.
SG now is 1.058.
If I add the potential ABV before sugar to the potential ABV after adding sugar it comes out to around 14%. It's that how that is calculated? I know Bill said to go by taste, but I have no frame of reference yet. As always, thank you guys!
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by NormandieStill »

If you want to know when it's done take a gravity reading and then another 48 hours later. If they're the same then your yeasties have fermented everything that they can. If it's changed just wait another 48h hours and try again.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by StillerBoy »

MonkeyRumKing wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:33 pm verything was going great. My molasses was fermenting for about 3 days and it came time to add the sugar on day 3 (just now). I just started to pour the sugar in after stirring a little to knock loose any suspended CO2 and the first cup of sugar sent this wash into volcano mode.
Failure to understand the process, is the cause for so called "volcano".. what does "careful" and "slowly" means.. adding 1 cup of sugar is a large amount, especially if done rapidly, and especially if the wash wash not degassed properly..

I've done many addition to sugar wash, but I don't add to the wash directly, and only a few tablespoon at at time at the start, and never had any issues..

Stage 3: Fermentation of Granulated Sugar
(1/2 hour work, 7-10 more days waiting)

Step 1) Carefully stir wash to knock CO2 out of suspension. (Watch for foam-up.)
Step 2) Slowly add the sugar, and stir well to dissolve it, testing for the grit of undissolved sugar on the
bottom of the bucket with stirring paddle.

Mars
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:57 pm
MonkeyRumKing wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:33 pm verything was going great. My molasses was fermenting for about 3 days and it came time to add the sugar on day 3 (just now). I just started to pour the sugar in after stirring a little to knock loose any suspended CO2 and the first cup of sugar sent this wash into volcano mode.
Failure to understand the process, is the cause for so called "volcano".. what does "careful" and "slowly" means.. adding 1 cup of sugar is a large amount, especially if done rapidly, and especially if the wash wash not degassed properly..

I've done many addition to sugar wash, but I don't add to the wash directly, and only a few tablespoon at at time at the start, and never had any issues..

Stage 3: Fermentation of Granulated Sugar
(1/2 hour work, 7-10 more days waiting)

Step 1) Carefully stir wash to knock CO2 out of suspension. (Watch for foam-up.)
Step 2) Slowly add the sugar, and stir well to dissolve it, testing for the grit of undissolved sugar on the
bottom of the bucket with stirring paddle.

Mars
I mean, I didn't take a cup of sugar and turn upside down and let it plop into the bucket. I was pouring it in at what I thought was a reasonable pace and I did sir prior to knock out the CO2. I was wrong though. I didn't know it would react that way. Again, this is my first time doing this. I did a sugar wash for my sacrificial run, but everything was added before I pitched my yeast so this didn't happen. Lesson learned. I'm very thankful to all the helpful folks here who helped me understand what went wrong.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by still_stirrin »

I’ve always made a high gravity syrup with the sugar before adding back to the ferment as a “step feed”. It won’t kick up the dissolved CO2 this way.

The dry (crystalline) sugar granules are nucleation points for the CO2 molecules to form a bubble, which then collects with other bubbles to build the “geyser” that spews up and out of the fermenter. If you have the sugar dissolved in a little water first, it won’t cause the violent reaction.

You won’t even have to stir the ferment before the addition, nor afterwards either because the heavy syrup will be mixed in as the buoyancy of the dissolved CO2 creates the gentle “stir” for you. You could visually see the eddys if you ferment in glass carboys, as I do.

Plus, the yeast can easily start reduction of the sugar faster when it’s dissolved opposed to dry crystals.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

still_stirrin wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:33 am I’ve always made a high gravity syrup with the sugar before adding back to the ferment as a “step feed”. It won’t kick up the dissolved CO2 this way.

The dry (crystalline) sugar granules are nucleation points for the CO2 molecules to form a bubble, which then collects with other bubbles to build the “geyser” that spews up and out of the fermenter. If you have the sugar dissolved in a little water first, it won’t cause the violent reaction.

You won’t even have to stir the ferment before the addition, nor afterwards either because the heavy syrup will be mixed in as the buoyancy of the dissolved CO2 creates the gentle “stir” for you. You could visually see the eddys if you ferment in glass carboys, as I do.

Plus, the yeast can easily start reduction of the sugar faster when it’s dissolved opposed to dry crystals.
ss
Great idea! I saw Jesse do that when he made this rum on his Still It channel. I found out the hard way why he did it, lol.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

Hi All,
Well, the rum is now aging in glass. I hope aging it does wonders because it doesn't smell like rum. Of course, I've never smelled rum directly from the still, so maybe it does. My yield from a 20 liter wash (which is what Buccaneer Bob's recipe is set at) was 2,750 ml at 39% ABV. According to the recipe it should have been 3,750 ml or (5) 750 ml bottles at 40 - 45% ABV. Of course my "overflow" that started this whole post could have contributed to the low yield. The biggest surprise to me was that I didn't have to dilute down to 39%. That's what my heart cuts ended up being right off the still. I wonder if that's because I added the 5 liters of water to the low wines prior to the spirit run as directed in the recipe? Will that negatively affect the aging? Here's the overall results:
1 liter - Foreshots and Heads (probably took about 90 minutes instead of 60 minutes - Bob's drops must be bigger than mine LOL)
2.75 liters - Hearts (took about 3 hours)
200 ml of tails.
I probably should have been checking more often during the last liter for the taste of alcohol, but I really don't think it went more than 200 ml between when I could still taste it and when I couldn't.

Anyway - first run. I'm learning. I did made drinkable alcohol. How much cola I have to add still remains to be seen LOL. Would love anyone's thoughts on this, and as always, thank you all so much for the help to get me this far. THIS IS A BLAST!!
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

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MonkeyRumKing wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:04 pm I wonder if that's because I added the 5 liters of water to the low wines prior to the spirit run as directed in the recipe?
There seem to an issue with follow instruction, as this second time it's being pointed out..

Where in Step 5 Spirit Run does it state to add additional water to the low wine ? ?

It's no wonder you got the result you did, not discounting that it seem to not had done the cuts properly..

Mars
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

Mars,
I'm not sure what exactly I didn't do according to the directions. Here's what is says in the PDF:

Stage 5: Spirit Run
(6-8 hours mixed work and waiting)
Step 1) Charge still with low wines and any tails left over from the previous spirit run.
Step 2) Add 5 liters of water to the still to dilute the still charge.
Step 3) Begin the spirit run, again dripping through a clean piece of cotton cloth. Start off slowly at a rate of
about 2-4 drops per second for liter #1. Adjust the heat under the still as well as possible in order to time this liter out to complete in about 60 minutes – 15 minutes per 250 ml. If distillation during liter #1 is allowed to run too quickly, not enough undesirable head components will be removed. Liter #1 is the foreshot and head-cut, and it should be poured into a separate bottle and kept for cleaning, disinfecting or fuel purposes.
Step 4) After liter #1 has finished, turn up the heat under the still a bit until distillate forms a thin stream and continue collecting distillate in liter-sized batches.
Step 5) After each liter finishes, take it out in the sunlight and examine it carefully for fusel oils floating on the surface. Ideally most were purged during the stripping run, but if any fusel oils made it through to this point, skim or wick them off and discard those fusel oils, as well.
Step 6) Put liter #2, liter #3, and liter #4 into a glass jug, jar, or other suitable container and cover tightly. This will be the heart-cut. While collecting liter #4, catch a few drops of the distillate in a spoon periodically and taste it. If the distillate stops tasting of alcohol, shut down the still, put whatever part of liter #4 is collected in with liter #2 and liter #3, and skip to the section on blending.
Step 7) Assuming liter #4 does continue tasting of alcohol to the end, begin collecting liter #5 until distillation noticeably slows and distillate no longer tastes of alcohol and then shut down the still. Whatever part of liter #5 is collected will be the tail cut. Put this in a separate bottle and add this to the next spirit run.
Step 8) Rinse-out or otherwise clean still.

You'll notice in step 2 it states to add 5 liters of water. Also not sure where I went wrong with the cuts. I'm real sorry if I'm irritating you. I'm just trying to learn. Also, the last time you pointed out that I didn't follow instructions, you weren't exactly spot on. Maybe you have a different copy than I do.
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by StillerBoy »

My error on the addition of water, as it's very uncommon to add water to low wine for a spirit if done right..

Here's where I think you went wrong.. the batch is for 15L not 20L.. he makes reference using a 20L bucket but only fill it to 3/4 or 15L.. that would explain why your end result was weaker (same amount of ingredients but 5L more of water)..

You made a 20L so it threw all his numbers off.. his stripping run only provide 5L of low wine at 55%.. at that ABV level, I can see why in step 2 he recommend adding 5L of water.. it is needed to dilute the 55% down to about a 30 - 35% for the spirit run..

His recipe instruction are somewhat difficult to follow.. I made his recipe once a long time back, but I don't like the taste of just blackstrap, prefer the panela rum with fancy molasses and little fancy (store bought) blackstrap..

Mars
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

Mars,
Thank you so much. That is very helpful. You're totally right about the wash size. I thought it was 20 liters. I added way too much water. I was going to try a different recipe next time like pergi's. Now I think I should try this again the right way. Either way, your last response was helpful and I can learn from that info. I truly appreciate it. Take care!
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by StillerBoy »

MonkeyRumKing wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:13 pm Now I think I should try this again the right way.
That's the only way to move forward, by redoing until the outcome is good, then switching to something else..

Just watch for the addition of the sugar went time comes.. take a small bucket, add about 3L of wash, then a small bit of sugar to it at first then slowly add the rest of the sugar, dissolving it properly, then in turn add the addition slowly the main wash while stir slowly..

Enjoy the journey

Mars
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Re: Sugar Shock - Now what?

Post by MonkeyRumKing »

😂😂 Totally. I'm going to make a syrup next time. I'm still laughing at myself for that one. Thanks again!
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