Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Simple pot still distillation and construction with or without a thumper.

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Pierrot Lunaire 55
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Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Over my years of pursuing this hobby, I've found stripping runs to be the most tedious and time consuming. As a result, I have tried to create a pot still I can run hard to minimize the time. I have 10 gallon boilers (three identical milk cans) and I make mash in 25 gallon batches, so stripping happens in three batches, each pushing over about 5 quarts for a total of 15 quarts of low wines.

Running with a big fire means extracting a lot of heat in the condenser, which means lots of water. My answer to that was creating a pot still with a two-stage condenser, first an air-cooled section using a 4 foot length of baseboard heating finned pipe, followed by a Liebig section to finish the job.
Side view.JPG
Sorry about the cluttered background, but the pot is on the right and enters the enclosure at the top right. The enclosure is a shroud to direct air through the finned pipe, that is driven by a blower on the floor. There are internal baffles to distribute air across the full width. Such blowers are available at building supply big boxes, used by contractors to dry wet floors, etc.
Steam inlet.JPG
The main steam line has a union so I can switch the boiler easily. You can see wires from RTDs I have to monitor temperature in the boiler and column top. At the end of the finned pipe, the line makes a u-turn and enters the Liebig section.
U-turn.JPG
I have mounted an RTD on the section in between and there is a significant temperature drop after the air-cooled section, but the water-cooled section is still necessary. However, the water doesn't heat up nearly as much as it did with just a long Liebig condenser. The data display/collector works great. Here you can see what it shows after making a boiler change. (ignore the date shown) You can see on the left half that the boiler and column temperatures are the same, but then the green line (column top) begins to go down. That's the point where I turned off the gas and once the boiling stops, it begins cooling quickly. Once I have disconnected the union, I can lift off the top to switch boilers. When the next boiler is in place, already pre-heated to about 85 C, the boiler line starts back up immediately and the column recovers partially. If you could see the next section, once it starts boiling again, the column and boiler lines match again.
Display.JPG
I use RTDs for all my measurements. This setup works very nicely and doesn't create gallons and gallons of hot bath water.

One additional aside, the Liebig condenser uses a VERY handy pipe fitting, a 1-1/2 x 3/4 x 1/2 inch reducing Tee, just perfect for making a condenser. I got it at Supply House. Much easier than boring out pipe caps, etc.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by StillerBoy »

You're to be complimented on the efforts put fore, but, at a great lost of efficiency overall, which was not brought into the picture overall.. the small 3/4" take off from the raiser is where efficiency is lost in my view from experiments done..

Mars
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Twisted Brick »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:43 am Over my years of pursuing this hobby, I've found stripping runs to be the most tedious and time consuming.

Running with a big fire means extracting a lot of heat in the condenser, which means lots of water.
One of the neat things about this hobby is the ingenuity/creativity members display in solving problems. I'm curious though, how long were your strip runs taking prior to installing your two-stage system? How much power are you able to run at now? Are you now enjoying a significant reduction in strip times?
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

I like the shroud and fan you made for the finned tube.
Have you thought about adding more finned tubes and going totally aircooled?
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

OK, good questions. Here's the deal: As you can see in the photo, I'm using Firestone milk cans as boilers. These aren't ideal for this purpose, but they are easy to work with. My burner is (according to the catalog) 72,000 btu/hour. Now you'd think I could boil like crazy, provided I don't turn it up so much that I start getting puking, which can easily happen at the beginning of the boil. Generally, once it gets going, I seem to be running it full blast. If I turn up the propane pressure too much, the flames start lifting off the burner holes.

I used to use the same boiler but with a longer Liebig as the only condenser. It worked well enough, but produced lots of hot water. I resorted to condenser water coolers using vehicle radiators and fans. The first version was from a Toyota four-banger, and eventually I built a much larger one with a Chevy truck radiator. Problem is, the best these can do is getting the water to ambient temperature, which us usually about 90 F this time of year. It eventually dawned on me after looking at my water bill that I was going to great lengths to recirculate cooling water rather than paying for <$10 worth of city tap water.

Nonetheless, I hit upon the air-cooled option and you see the result. In response to StillerBoy, I agree the 3/4 inch pipe coming off the boiler is probably too small and results in too much steam velocity. I've never tried to calculate it, but it is decreasing all along the way as the temperature goes down, and has already slowed considerably by the time it hits the Liebig. If I were going to build a Mark II version of this, I'd probably put two of those finned cooling pipes running in parallel, right out of the boiler. It may happen over this winter. That should help but I have a hard time thinking that I can get enough of those pipes to go totally air-cooled, but it's an interesting thought.

All that to say, this setup doesn't allow me to run the still any harder than the earlier setup. Perhaps someone more clever can do an accurate calculation, but it takes me almost exactly one hour to cook over 5 quarts of distillate starting with about 8 gallons of mash with 9-10% ABV (boils at about 92 C). This is the same rate as I got with my earlier single-stage Liebig but I make a whole lot less hot water with my new setup.

As always, I'm open to comments/observations.

Thanks.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by StillerBoy »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:48 pm I agree the 3/4 inch pipe coming off the boiler is probably too small and results in too much steam velocity. I've never tried to calculate it, but it is decreasing all along the way as the temperature goes down, and has already slowed considerably by the time it hits the Liebig.
I don't agree with the decreasing velocity as the longer a liebig is the better it is.. a liebig is fine for spirit run as the distillin speed is slow compared to stripping..

Understanding that a product condenser does two things.. one it condense the vapor to distillate, and that happen only at the very beginning, and two it is a distillate cooler, which is what happen once the vapors have become distillate and run down the condenser.. and the reason long liebig are built is for cooling purposes, and liebig are water hogs if pushed hard..

To create an ideal product condenser one that minimizes the vapor restriction path from the column to the condenser, and able to condense the vapor easily.. that is done using a shotgun style condenser design with the minimum of vapor restriction, cold water, and of sufficient length to cool the distillate down in the shortest length..

I've experimented with several different designs, sizes, and length of liebigs and shotguns.. the best all around setup is a setup of 2" all the way to a 2" shotgun of 5 tubes and of 14 - 15" length.. I presently using a 2" x 6" - 5 tubes with handle 3500w with less than 1 liter per min of 60*F water, and the 14" one does the same at just over 1/2 liter per min.. and a shogun works best in a vertical position..

Trying to cool water down to a 65 - 70*F level, unless on has a 500 liter tank and in cool area.. otherwise less that that amount, is making life difficult.. it maybe fine for spiriting with a pot unit, but not for a reflux column.. cold water for stillin is an important requirement for proper operation..

Mars
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by The Baker »

Hi, Pierrot,
Just wondering.
Is it usually (or in winter) quite cold where you distil?
And so do you get the benefit of warming in the room, from your finned condenser?

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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:48 pm .... If I were going to build a Mark II version of this, I'd probably put two of those finned cooling pipes running in parallel, right out of the boiler. It may happen over this winter. That should help but I have a hard time thinking that I can get enough of those pipes to go totally air-cooled, but it's an interesting thought.
Logic says the finned tubes would work better in parallel.
But experience says have them in series. :lol:

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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Twisted Brick »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:48 pm My burner is (according to the catalog) 72,000 btu/hour. Now you'd think I could boil like crazy, provided I don't turn it up so much that I start getting puking, which can easily happen at the beginning of the boil. Generally, once it gets going, I seem to be running it full blast.

Thanks.
PL, I think I missed something. I thought I read that you found "stripping runs to be the most tedious and time consuming", then stated a strip run yielding 5qts of low wines takes you 'an hour'. How long would you say an 8gal strip run is supposed to take?

There are calculations for vapor speed and volume by pipe diameter on the internet, but I'm wondering how much value they would provide you. A reality of distilling is that the heat you put in is the heat you have to remove (although at this point you know that). Like Mars recommends, upgrading to a 2" vapor path into a 2" shotgun (and reducing your power input) would relieve you of a mess of your condensing scheme.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:52 pm
...the best all around setup is a setup of 2" all the way to a 2" shotgun of 5 tubes and of 14 - 15" length.. I

On a boiler this size, there's no advantage to running 2" plumbing between the riser and condenser.
3/4" or 1" tubing is cheaper, weighs less and would work just as good.
Also, the only reason to use a shotgun instead of a liebig, is if length is important.
That's not the case when burning gas.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:48 pm
... I've never tried to calculate it, but it is decreasing all along the way as the temperature goes down, and has already slowed considerably by the time it hits the Liebig.
+1

The farther vapor travels down a product condenser and cools, the vapor speed decreases rapidly.
Once all the vapor has condensed it has no speed, only liquid.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by NZChris »

If it's the tedium that you want to get rid of, use the waste heat to heat the next strip. By putting the vapor through a preheater before it gets to my Liebig, I heat my next still charge to where I'm often removing the foreshot before it goes into the still. My last stripping session was six strips of two different products, about 15 minutes between shutting down a strip and the next strip pouring from the spout.

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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

To answer "The Baker," most of the time I'm cooking, it's pretty warm so I'm glad to get rid of heat. Your comment did bring up an interesting thought. I remember reading an article some years back that a commercial fuel-grade ethanol producer set up adjacent to a coal-fired power plant somewhere in the US midwest. The distillery used heat captured from exhaust steam from the turbines to do all the heating tasks for mash making and distillation. This was effectively free heat as the steam must be condensed before it can be reintroduced to the power plant boiler as feed water. Normally this would simply be done via a cooling tower, so diverting it to another beneficial process was a major gain.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by StillerBoy »

NZChris wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:35 pm My last stripping session was six strips of two different products, about 15 minutes between shutting down a strip and the next strip pouring from the spout.
The question is.. "is pre-heating as efficient as an extra setup in the stripping process"

There are many school of thoughts, but not all are good.. The setup for stripping I use does a 30L load in a 50L boiler (2/3 capacity) in 70 minutes, under 4 min to empty/refill, heatup 15 min (5500w) to spout running, and another 50 min to shutdown, stripping at 3500w (not hard and fast) and ready for next run, with a ambient temp of 70*F, and when the ambient temp is higher (summer), there's a 5 - 6 quicker..

Where the time saving is made in understanding the why and how to reduce time and waste, and what has to be done to do so.. Reducing vapor restriction is an area, and improvement on the product condenser for efficiency.. the result is less usage of power, less restriction of vapors, and less water usage..

Mars
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

I am preheating now, but simply with another burner that also uses propane and makes the garage even hotter. Since I use three identical cans as boilers, number two is heating up while number one is running. Breaking the union, taking off the lid, and moving the cans is done in less than five minutes. The preheated batch is usually about 85-86 C, so it takes less than 10 minutes to get to boiling again. I typically turn the heat down at this point because if it comes to a boil too fast, it pukes, big time. I need to sneak up to it. (If you scroll back to the first post, you'll see what the change looks like on my data recorder.)

I've been looking at the other string on preheating. Very interesting. I'd love to capture heat in this manner, but it seems like a whole lot of apparatus, not that I'm averse to building equipment. I do need to put my wife's car in the garage from time to time...
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by StillerBoy »

shadylane wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:17 pm On a boiler this size, there's no advantage to running 2" plumbing between the riser and condenser.
3/4" or 1" tubing is cheaper, weighs less and would work just as good.
There are many school of thoughts on the statement about, but this not a thought out one..

He's got and using a 10 gal boiler, so it not like it was a piss pot.. he got a 2" raiser, which is a good start, unfortunately it is reduced to 3/4", which by the nature of the reduction, requiring extra power to push through the vapors, creating extra back pressure within the system, thereby requiring extra water flow to condense, and in turn a reduction of efficiency overall..

Why not build something that is more efficient than the standard built, as it's really not more costly when everything is considered, not just considering having something coming out the spout..

Mars
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

So perhaps a tapered transition would help, as is common on so many traditional still designs?

I'm already working out the ideas for a Mark II version of this arrangement, with two sections of finned pipes, in series, so there will be two u-turns, and probably a slightly longer Liebig section. I'll design a more gradual transition off the boiler. A good test of my copper fabrication abilities.

The bigger question is coming up with a better boiler design. Hmmmmm...

Thanks.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by StillerBoy »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:36 am The bigger question is coming up with a better boiler design. Hmmmmm...
There's nothing wrong with the boiler(s) you have.. they just need to improved and setup properly..

Using gas is not the best way to work a still with for many reasons..

What you need to do is move to as electric setup and see the different in efficiency, not discounting the heat factor, but also the danger factor of open flames around flammable liquid, the requirement of having an open space, the high cost of gas, just to mention a few..

It's ok to experiment with extending the length, and maybe reduce some of the restriction, but at the of the day, you will not be much further in efficiency than you are at now.. and as I stated, preheating is really not needed at the small boiler we do most times, as you are already aware of some the issues caused..

It's your choice, but if it was me, I be spending time improving in alternate direction..

Mars
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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StillerBoy wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:19 am
NZChris wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:35 pm My last stripping session was six strips of two different products, about 15 minutes between shutting down a strip and the next strip pouring from the spout.
The question is.. "is pre-heating as efficient as an extra setup in the stripping process"

There are many school of thoughts, but not all are good.. The setup for stripping I use does a 30L load in a 50L boiler (2/3 capacity) in 70 minutes, under 4 min to empty/refill, heatup 15 min (5500w) to spout running, and another 50 min to shutdown, stripping at 3500w (not hard and fast) and ready for next run, with a ambient temp of 70*F, and when the ambient temp is higher (summer), there's a 5 - 6 quicker..
My preheater saves all of the time and energy required to get the next strip up to temperature, sometimes more, plus the cooling water requirement starts at zero and slowly rises during each strip. You are throwing 1,375 kWh at yours in 15 minutes, mine uses 0.0 kWh and has no heat up time.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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NZChris wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:52 pm You are throwing 1,375 kWh at yours in 15 minutes, mine uses 0.0 kWh and has no heat up time.
You have a point, but the KWH you mention cost me under 12 cents at 8 cent a KWH, with no extra effort at connecting and un-connecting and whatever other things that need to done or be concern with preheat something..

No big saving in cost, considering I can do other thing during the 15 minutes not having to babysit a preheater setup..

I can see the value if I was doing multiple strip run of 100L or more, but not on 2 - 3run of 30L..

Mars
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

StillerBoy wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:16 am
shadylane wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:17 pm On a boiler this size, there's no advantage to running 2" plumbing between the riser and condenser.
3/4" or 1" tubing is cheaper, weighs less and would work just as good.
There are many school of thoughts on the statement about, but this not a thought out one..

He's got and using a 10 gal boiler, so it not like it was a piss pot.. he got a 2" raiser, which is a good start, unfortunately it is reduced to 3/4", which by the nature of the reduction, requiring extra power to push through the vapors, creating extra back pressure within the system, thereby requiring extra water flow to condense, and in turn a reduction of efficiency overall..

My opinion is based on boiler pressure that's measured with a manometer.
He has a 3/4" condenser, there's no advantage to use tubing bigger than that to connect it to the riser.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:36 am

The bigger question is coming up with a better boiler design. Hmmmmm...
Have you thought about a shroud around the lower half of the boiler.
Most of the heat is getting away before it can heat the pot.

72,000 btu is equal to 21,000 watts

Just guessing,
With electric, at around 5,000w your milkcan boiler would start boiling over.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:36 am So perhaps a tapered transition would help, as is common on so many traditional still designs?

I'm already working out the ideas for a Mark II version of this arrangement, with two sections of finned pipes, in series, so there will be two u-turns, and probably a slightly longer Liebig section. I'll design a more gradual transition off the boiler. A good test of my copper fabrication abilities.
I'm thinking the liebig will only get to function as a chiller.
Because two sections of finned pipes in series will be enough to knock down the vapor.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by StillerBoy »

shadylane wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:32 pm My opinion is based on boiler pressure that's measured with a manometer.
Glad to read that it's just an opinion, cause a manometer only provide the reading at a given power input within the confine that it's working in, which really provide nothing in maximum efficiency that can be had in a 2" to the condenser, other that the reading of what a 3/4" is able to do..

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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by NZChris »

StillerBoy wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:02 pm You have a point, but the KWH you mention cost me under 12 cents at 8 cent a KWH, with no extra effort at connecting and un-connecting and whatever other things that need to done or be concern with preheat something..
A well designed preheater doesn't require disconnecting anything, regardless of how many runs you are doing.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by shadylane »

If I was going to use wastewater for preheating.
I'd put a small liebig between the riser and first finned tube.
Connected to a wortchiller in the next batch of wash heating it up.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

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NZChris wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:27 pm A well designed preheater doesn't require disconnecting anything
That's great.. plus you enjoy the manner of how you are setup..

I enjoy the setup I've improved on, 3 runs for 90L stripped, under 4 hrs from setup to cleaning and storing the equipment, that good enough for me, just a nice leisure afternoon..

Mars
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by EricTheRed »

NZChris put me onto this and it saves me enough time to warrant it. 45 to 60 minutes on change over down to less than 10 and 30 minutes less heat up time.
PC output to next batch heater. I have to bypass it before the strip is done
I run on solar only so time wasted during good light is criminal.
I pull 3000w as i need to leave some buffer for clouds and SWAMBOs kit.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by NZChris »

StillerBoy wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:53 pm
NZChris wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:27 pm A well designed preheater doesn't require disconnecting anything
That's great.. plus you enjoy the manner of how you are setup..

I enjoy the setup I've improved on, 3 runs for 90L stripped, under 4 hrs from setup to cleaning and storing the equipment, that good enough for me, just a nice leisure afternoon..

Mars
The subject of the thread is about saving on cooling costs. A preheater helps do that and comes with other efficiencies that a lot of newbie distillers come here knowing nothing about.

The OP's air cooler design can be installed after a preheater and save on even more cooling demand.
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Re: Stripping still with hybrid air- and water-cooled condenser

Post by EricTheRed »

Whether it be cooling costs, time, or available power, a preheater is worth the extra build and setup
My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D
Life has gotten interesting!
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